Coach Length To Put Program In

[corta765]

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

[KD in CA]

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

[ROCBillsBeliever]

26 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

???

[John from Riverside]

29 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

And you would be correct on that

[LABILLBACKER]

the bottom line is most of these arrogant ego coaches blow out perfectly good players already in place. Then in all their divine wisdom have to go out shopping for new players that hopefully fits their philosophy. The great coaches play to to strengths of the players already on the roster. Rex and McD are the classic examples of this.

[K-9]

Who is this coach Length you speak of and when did we hire him to put a program in? 

[jrober38]

33 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

[Soda Popinski]

2018 is the full tear down

2019 is the full rebuild

2020 is when we should expect results. 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

One of the few things I agree with you on

[Fadingpain]

It's not regime change that's the problem folks!

 

It's the crap hiring that has plagued this organization for most of its history.

 

The trick for breaking the repetitive cycle is hiring quality people who deserve to stick around a long time.

 

There is zero sense in keeping the wrong people a long time, simply for "consistency."

 

 

[Maybe Someday]

&$%# that, I demand satisfaction NOW!!!  McD & Beane haven't done everything exactly as I wanted them to so they need to be fired yesterday.  If the new guys don't field an elite team by week 6 of next year, fire them too.  Eventually they'll hire me and we'll go 19-0 cuz I've got all the answers. 

 

Signed,

Way too many posters on TSW

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Fadingpain said:

It's not regime change that's the problem folks!

 

It's the crap hiring that has plagued this organization for most of its history.

 

The trick for breaking the repetitive cycle is hiring quality people who deserve to stick around a long time.

 

There is zero sense in keeping the wrong people a long time, simply for "consistency."

 

 

Its not for "consistency" it is to allow a group to complete their vision of what the winning team should look like.

 

They have literally tried every single way to fix this.....they have hired the hot college coach....the experienced coach.....

 

Now they are trying the "young hot coordinator" approach along with a full team rebiuld and that takes TIME

[hondo in seattle]

The Steelers have had 3 coaches since 1969 and have gone 758-458-2 with 6 SB victories.

 

The Bills have had 18 coaches over that same span with slightly different results.  

 

Maybe our leadership model is wrong?

 

 

(Sidebar: The Steelers have had the same guy - Kevin Colbert - running the draft since 2000.  There might be something to be said for stability).  

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

The only coachs on list for past is marrone and Wade.. But he quited. Rex Ryan was a cancer to the team. Players sleeping reports and stuff. I'm willing to give McDermott 4 years but that's it. For results. Circumstances per say for past coachs

Edited November 7, 2018 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[NewEra]

34 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

One of the few things I agree with you on

I wouldn’t.  I’d say the biggest problem over the last 20 years has been our reluctance to pull the trigger on drafting QBs.  Considering we haven’t had one “good” QB since Kelly and we’ve only drafted 3 in the first round since then is ridiculous imo.  

 

But it I agree that switching between the 3-4 and 4-3 has been a problem and sets us back each time we do.

[BigBuff423]

I'll say this, while it's hard to watch on Sundays right now, McD and Beane have given me the most confidence they have a very detailed plan and are executing it at any cost. The sell-out to send Watkins, Dareus to other teams while getting Draft capital is NOT something this team has done in a long time. Bills over the last two decades have a penchant for trading their Draft picks to get unknown players that have not lived up to the Draft hype. This was a reversal of philosophy, and I like it.

 

As for Offense, we have yet to see what transpires but they have done a similar sell-out to get a couple pieces in place: LT & WR2 in year one, QB and maybe LG in year 2. The real re-shaping of the Offense will take place in 2019 and if it doesn't then IMHO, they shouldn't get the fourth year. I'm not saying I demand overnight success, but if Beane and McD don't invest in the Offense the way they have on Defense in the 2019 Off-season, then they cannot be reconciled with future success. 

 

However, I don't suspect that to be the case as I truly believe this was the plan all along. Not the retirements of Wood and Incognito, but that short of that, they planned everything else, specifically the pain to cut the Cap dead wood. I give them all of the money, Draft picks and through the 2019 season to see if their strategy shows real gains and promise or even better yet, resulted in good, consistent winning. 

[corta765]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I wouldn’t.  I’d say the biggest problem over the last 20 years has been our reluctance to pull the trigger on drafting QBs.  Considering we haven’t had one “good” QB since Kelly and we’ve only drafted 3 in the first round since then is ridiculous imo.  

 

But it I agree that switching between the 3-4 and 4-3 has been a problem and sets us back each time we do.

 

This point I wish I could highlight into the dam sun. The patriots have drafted more QBs then us. I my opinion any new regime should draft a new QB in round 1 or 2 within 3-4 years even if they have a quality starter just because you never know.

[fansince88]

Agree'd

[Fadingpain]

15 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Its not for "consistency" it is to allow a group to complete their vision of what the winning team should look like.

 

They have literally tried every single way to fix this.....they have hired the hot college coach....the experienced coach.....

 

Now they are trying the "young hot coordinator" approach along with a full team rebiuld and that takes TIME

As people like you love to point out, we made the playoffs last year.

Why strip this down to bare metal and rebuild in this manner?!  Who thought that was necessary?

 

Also, it's not the 1980s anymore.  Clumsy rebuilds involving entire lost seasons are not in fashion these days, nor are they necessarily required.  

 

I assure you Pegula will not be as patient as you and many other kool aid drinkers at this forum are.

 

If things don't look "right" next season, we'll be onto the next group end of next year.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

43 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

As people like you love to point out, we made the playoffs last year.

Why strip this down to bare metal and rebuild in this manner?!  Who thought that was necessary?

 

Also, it's not the 1980s anymore.  Clumsy rebuilds involving entire lost seasons are not in fashion these days, nor are they necessarily required.  

 

I assure you Pegula will not be as patient as you and many other kool aid drinkers at this forum are.

 

If things don't look "right" next season, we'll be onto the next group end of next year.

 

 

The rebuild started long before they made the playoffs, and most of the talent they let go happened prior to making the playoffs. What talent did they let go of after making the playoffs? Glenn, who hardly contributed at all the last couple of years due to injuries? Tyrod, who, minus the turnovers, gave us pretty much the same passing performances we are seeing now? 

 

The rebuild was already happening. Making the playoffs was a combination of many things, the least of which was championship caliber talent on the team, particularly on offense. This year was always going to be a struggle, with the loss of two key linemen, the prohibitive amount of dead cap money, and the use of draft capital to acquire, what the team feels, are the future centerpieces of the offense and defense. Anyone paying attention saw some version of this coming. Building the offense around their QB and continuing to add pieces defensively begins this coming off season.

 

You can argue the merits of their plan or the decisions they have made in support of that plan; however, they do have a plan. The willingness to give them some time is not necessarily an endorsement of their philosophy, buying into "the process," a blind willingness to support everything they do, or an indication of some inferior ability to objectively evaluate what they are doing. It is simply a reasonable approach.

[NoSaint]

17 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

Or that the teams done a terrible job hiring. How many do you think would’ve been excellent in year 4?

[BeginnersMind]

There is NO DOUBT that the two year turnover machine that is the Bills needs to stop. Of all those guys who got 3 or less years, only Ryan earned his firing. He was the worst. The rest deserved longer tenures, even the ones I didn’t like!

 

Next year the trend needs to be upwards. and year 4 must be a clear season of depth and strength with playoff berths in the offing for 4-5 years possible. I’d give McD 5 years and only pull the plug if year 4 is a disaster. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[Bangarang]

If this team doesn’t turn it around next year then McD is gone. It doesn’t take 4 or 5 years to build a successful team. Coaches and GMs don’t have that luxury. It’s a results based business. 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

If this team doesn’t turn it around next year then McD is gone. It doesn’t take 4 or 5 years to build a successful team. Coaches and GMs don’t have that luxury. It’s a results based business. 

I don't believe most fans believe they should automatically get  4 to 5 years. IMHO, I think most believe it is reasonable to give them through next year to show a marked improvement in this team, and that they are capable of achieving what they said they want to do - and what we all want: building a championship caliber team.

[ROCBillsBeliever]

17 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

&$%# that, I demand satisfaction NOW!!!  McD & Beane haven't done everything exactly as I wanted them to so they need to be fired yesterday.  If the new guys don't field an elite team by week 6 of next year, fire them too.  Eventually they'll hire me and we'll go 19-0 cuz I've got all the answers. 

 

Signed,

Way too many posters on TSW

 

Hey bud, I bought you a pony ?

[Bangarang]

20 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I don't believe most fans believe they should automatically get  4 to 5 years. IMHO, I think most believe it is reasonable to give them through next year to show a marked improvement in this team, and that they are capable of achieving what they said they want to do - and what we all want: building a championship caliber team.

 

There are definitely people here who believe these guys should get 5 years for the sake of continuity.

 

If Allen doesn’t make a big leap next year and our offense is still terrible then these guys are probably gone.

[CLTbills]

18 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

But but but but McBeane should be fired immediately!

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

There are definitely people here who believe these guys should get 5 years for the sake of continuity.

 

If Allen doesn’t make a big leap next year and our offense is still terrible then these guys are probably gone.

I think it is a small segment that believes it would be a good idea to give any FO 5 years just for the sake of "continuity," which is ridiculous. Just as I think it is a small segment that believes it would be a good idea to fire a GM after one draft and 1.5 years into a rebuild and a coach 1.5 years into a rebuild - which is equally ridiculous. Again, IMHO, I think most of us are in the camp that it is reasonable to give them through next year. If, at that point, we are not seeing real improvement and real indications this team is headed in the right direction, then, I would image there will be changes.

[CuddyDark]

18 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

For me this is about never having a GM with any power in the organization since Polian. They keep hiring poor GMs who will acquiesce to the owner. Whaley had zero power. Beane is a stand in to McDermott. If they want to fix it, they have to do like the Steelers. Get a good talent guy and let him build it to his liking. Leave him alone to his theory on both sides of the ball. To me this is the biggest problem going back to Ralph. You can't keep changing a good football man because he makes a bad draft pick. I think they fired Whaley too soon. They could have kept him and added Beane as President of operations. Beane is not a GM. He's never worked in talent. He didn't work in talent as a coach or scout like most GMs. Whaley had an eye for talent he was just a poor personality type and he missed on QB. I think a GM should get to miss on 2 or 3 high draft picked QBs before he's fired.

Edited November 8, 2018 by CuddyDark

[TroutDog]

18 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

I believe it’s a combination of both. Must hold the course, regardless of fan discontent. 

[CuddyDark]

Just now, TroutDog said:

I believe it’s a combination of both. Must hold the course, regardless of fan discontent. 

If you believe in the men in charge. Yes men holding a course is wasted time.

[TroutDog]

4 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

If you believe in the men in charge. Yes men holding a course is wasted time.

I believe the Pegula’a do. 

[US Egg]

The McBeane plan, as it looks after 1.5 seasons, regressed beyond what any reasonable fan could have imagined. They are near a laughing stock.

 

McD defenders cite the 'D', it would have merit if it wasn't being totally wasted by an offense teetering towards an all time worse.  

 

To think the offense will improve much by next season is wishful thinking. McBeane will need at least through 2020 to show real 'O" improvement.  

 

Lot of painful watching for at least another year and a half before this team can even be possibly considered weekly competitive.

Edited November 8, 2018 by I am the egg man

[Nanker]

Jason Garrett for OC in 2019.

[Mango]

8 inches 

[Bill from NYC]

19 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

Yes, Jauron kicked ass after being here for 3 1/2 years!   

Seriously, almost every person on that list was a terrible hire.  One was worse than the next. Levy/Jauron  would have kept losing if they were here for 50 years.

I still actually think that the team has a better chance to win with the Pegulas. Ralph was done and Brandon was a horror show.

Jmo.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

19 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

The funny thing is, almost to a man each one has claimed that they don't run a "true" 3-4 or 4-3, rather, it would be some type of hybrid set that could accomodate players schematically giving both looks based on the in-game situation. It seems like it's too simplistic to say that a D is beholden to one or the other anymore. Rexy for instance tried to run more of his father's 46 setup, and his coaching mentor Billick claimed that what personnel he had on hand dictated what his base look would be. McDermott also claims that he's comfortable with both base looks.

 https://buffalonews.com/2017/01/14/bills-2016-defensive-autopsy-rex-ryan/

 

Here's another one from Rex's Jets days claiming a similar point:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1193999-new-york-jets-why-rex-ryans-defense-is-not-a-3-4

 

And finally, a really good primer on what any of this jargon truly means and more specifically from which coaching tree they were made famous by, as of a few years ago:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1074050-nfl-defensive-schemes-the-basics-of-the-4-3-3-4-and-ryan-defenses

 

[PromoTheRobot]

That's a rather personal topic, a coach's length.

[MJS]

19 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

That is true, but when you have clearly made a mistake in hiring (for example Rex Ryan), it is better to cut the cord quickly. But half of those coaches should have been given longer.

 

It is also worth noting that Marrone left on his own terms. He would have had a third year at least.

[KD in CA]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Or that the teams done a terrible job hiring. How many do you think would’ve been excellent in year 4?

 

Probably not many, but that isn't relevant to the point that 1) no franchise will be successful if they can't find some continuity and 2) people who are screaming for McD's head (some since halftime of the Baltimore game) are idiots.