Southern Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I believe that they have decided to follow the Astros model of rebuilding, which is a total tear down from top to bottom. They are getting the pieces in place while suffering big losses to build a consistent winner for the future. Consistently putting a band aid on the problems by handing out bad contracts to remain 8-8 or 7-9 isn’t going to build a winner. Building through the draft and when you’re ready to win, adding the needed veterans is the proper way to rebuild. The Astros had Altuve, Springer and drafted Correa and Bregman. When they were ready, they got Verlander. They lost over 100 games for several years in a row but set themselves up for long term success. I believe that’s the model they are following. We have excellent pieces on defense and hopefully our QB. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 What young good Bills players/prospects do the Bills have? With the exception of White and maybe Edmunds. I like Allen and I HOPE he will be great one day, but I remain skeptical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 A successful rebuild would require several top tier players who aren't even on the team. Think about that. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 You can't compare this to baseball. Baseball teams have minor league teams all over the country developing players and getting them ready for the majors. Some players are in the minors 3-5 years before playing in the big leagues. Football players have to be ready to play in first 1-2 years.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Im not sure if they were supposed to be this awful. They also do things like keep old guys and refuse to trade them. A true tear down team would have gotten what they can for mccoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Just now, nucci said: You can't compare this to baseball. Baseball teams have minor league teams all over the country developing players and getting them ready for the majors. Some players are in the minors 3-5 years before playing in the big leagues. Football players have to be ready to play in first 1-2 years.... The only way the analogy works at all is if you include NCAA players that haven't been drafted yet. Who knows who they are at this point? I rather doubt we will find enough help through free agency to effectively improve the dreadful offense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 There are very few pieces in place to build on, and if the plan is to add to the talent pool through free agency, they are in big trouble. Why would any talented free agent want to come into this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 So does that mean that we are no longer the Pittsburgh Pirates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Why is everyone so sure that current ineptitude is an indicator of future Championships? Were that the case, over the last 20 years we probably would have hung more Championship banners from the rafters than the Colts hung "AFC South Participation Banner 201[X]" banners. 4 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Jauronimo said: Why is everyone so sure that current ineptitude is an indicator of future Championships? Were that the case, over the last 20 years we probably would have hung more Championship banners from the rafters than the Colts hung "AFC South Participation Banner 201[X]" banners. I believe it’s because we always tried the band aid fix of signing a few overpriced veterans to try and remain 8-8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleSammy Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 The big assumption in this approach would be the current leadership is capable of assessing/stocking the team with quality talent and managing the rebuild properly. Based on their track record to date, I am not so sure that is the case. The jury is still out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Bad contracts to remain mediocre ? Good players get paid, so you keep the most important ones ( cannot keep them all) and replace others via draft and FA. The Bills problem wasn’t bad contracts, but a lack of a star QB and few good young players on cheap deals. Their structure was perhaps a bit different because they didn’t have a top QB eating up a certain percentage of cap $$, but this notion that contracts were the problem with the Bills is overblown. They are now completely bereft of talent on one side of the ball, and the D may be a tad overrated as well. The Beane / McD plan is practically doomed to fail because they’ve set themselves up to need a few spectacular drafts and a great FA haul to be competitive. They’ll be fired before they can see it through. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrtonHearsaWho Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 44 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I believe that they have decided to follow the Astros model of rebuilding, which is a total tear down from top to bottom. They are getting the pieces in place while suffering big losses to build a consistent winner for the future. Consistently putting a band aid on the problems by handing out bad contracts to remain 8-8 or 7-9 isn’t going to build a winner. Building through the draft and when you’re ready to win, adding the needed veterans is the proper way to rebuild. The Astros had Altuve, Springer and drafted Correa and Bregman. When they were ready, they got Verlander. They lost over 100 games for several years in a row but set themselves up for long term success. I believe that’s the model they are following. We have excellent pieces on defense and hopefully our QB. I admire your optimism man, I really do. I talked myself into it for a lot of the season but I honestly can't right now. Granted I have only been a Bills fan for about 20 years (awesome timing huh!), but I think this is about the worst I have felt about this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I believe it’s because we always tried the band aid fix of signing a few overpriced veterans to try and remain 8-8. They were 8-8 mostly due to the lack of a top QB. They were average to above in most other areas. They are now well below average on offense; the most important side of the ball in the current NFL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrtonHearsaWho Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, LittleSammy said: The big assumption in this approach would be the current leadership is capable of assessing/stocking the team with quality talent and managing the rebuild properly. Based on their track record to date, I am not so sure that is the case. The jury is still out. I swear if we bring in one more player from Carolina, I'm going to just go ahead and root for Carolina. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: They were 8-8 mostly due to the lack of a top QB. They were average to above in most other areas. They are now well below average on offense; the most important side of the ball in the current NFL. I agree with you that they are on offense. We have 10 draft picks and a ton of cap money next year. You can’t tell me that 2-3 solid O lineman and 2 playmakers at WR would make us a good offense. Zay can be a solid possession receiver with outside threats. That’s only adding 4-5 players. Edited October 22, 2018 by Southern Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 No team has a ton of just young stud players. When I look at this team, I'm looking at players we can build on for the next 3-5 years. Allen Dawkins Zay Star Hughes Harry Shaq Edmunds Milano White Johnson Hyde Poyer That's not a bad group to build on when you have 10 draft picks, which will include a high pick, and a ton of cap space. Clearly our Offense will look entirely different next year and the Defense is pretty well stocked with young/prime talent. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I agree with you that they are on offense. We have 10 draft picks and a ton of cap money next year. You can’t tell me that 2-3 solid O lineman and 2 playmakers at WR would make us a good offense. Zay can be a solid possession receiver with outside threats. That’s only adding 4-5 players. This all assumes Allen pans out which is a big ???. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, SCBills said: No team has a ton of just young stud players. When I look at this team, I'm looking at players we can build on for the next 3-5 years. Allen Dawkins Zay Star Hughes Harry Shaq Edmunds Milano White Johnson Hyde Poyer That's not a bad group to build on when you have 10 draft picks, which will include a high pick, and a ton of cap space. Clearly our Offense will look entirely different next year and the Defense is pretty well stocked with young/prime talent. They're going to have to hit on many of those 10 picks, half of which are later round picks. As far as free agency, there needs to be players that we want and then they will want to play here. It's not going to be easy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Whatever. We've heard this a million times. Just you wait, in 3-years this team will be invincible. The Centerpiece is Josh Allen. An inaccurate, marginal performer out of the Mountain West. And he wasn't looking too good before getting hurt. This team has one young player that is reliably good - Trey White. The defense has some nice veterans. The rest of the team is bottom of the barrel scrapings. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Two years into this supposed "rebuild", there are so many holes on this team that there will not be enough talent available in FA and the draft to fill all the holes even if the Bills could snap up every FA to hit the market and had all the picks in the first 3 rounds of the entire draft. They need virtually an entire offense. Who is at least NFL caliber on the unit? Allen, simply by virtue of the Bills investment in him. Dawkins. Jones. Clay and McCoy if the Bills keep them. Ivory. Groy and -- I hate to say this -- Ducasse as strickly backups. Maybe Miller is salvageable if he had better coaching, which is unlikely if McDermott remains HC. The defense is better but it's living on borrowed time as it's old with 2 35-year-olds (Williams and Alexander) and a 30-year-old on the DL for starters. The safeties are decent, and White is good at CB. Edmunds and Howard are promising but they're rookies who can continue to develop -- or not. Milano looks like the only other half way decent defensive player besides White to come out of the 2017 draft. This roster doesn't resemble a "rebuild" so much as a dumpster fire. McDermott is great at dismantling an NFL team but he's clueless about how to rebuild it. He needs to go ... as does his henchman Beane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I agree with you that they are on offense. We have 10 draft picks and a ton of cap money next year. You can’t tell me that 2-3 solid O lineman and 2 playmakers at WR would make us a good offense. Zay can be a solid possession receiver with outside threats. That’s only adding 4-5 players. Easier said than done. Playmaking WRs in the draft ? That’s been a huge hit or miss around the league for awhile. As FA ? Good luck. The contracts being given out in FA to WRs are huge, and players have choices. They won’t want to come to Buffalo. It’s not so easy as going to the store and picking out stud players to stack your offense with. The FOs drafting ability is suspect to say the least. Then there’s the matter of if the OC is any good. I’d love to share your optimism, but it’s a pretty big ask of even a competent FO to pull off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Bills Fan Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: This all assumes Allen pans out which is a big ???. That’s right. The future success depends on his development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 54 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: The only way the analogy works at all is if you include NCAA players that haven't been drafted yet. Who knows who they are at this point? I rather doubt we will find enough help through free agency to effectively improve the dreadful offense. The Panthers are 4-2. The future is somewhat bright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, SoTier said: Two years into this supposed "rebuild", there are so many holes on this team that there will not be enough talent available in FA and the draft to fill all the holes even if the Bills could snap up every FA to hit the market and had all the picks in the first 3 rounds of the entire draft. They need virtually an entire offense. Who is at least NFL caliber on the unit? Allen, simply by virtue of the Bills investment in him. Dawkins. Jones. Clay and McCoy if the Bills keep them. Ivory. Groy and -- I hate to say this -- Ducasse as strickly backups. Maybe Miller is salvageable if he had better coaching, which is unlikely if McDermott remains HC. The defense is better but it's living on borrowed time as it's old with 2 35-year-olds (Williams and Alexander) and a 30-year-old on the DL for starters. The safeties are decent, and White is good at CB. Edmunds and Howard are promising but they're rookies who can continue to develop -- or not. Milano looks like the only other half way decent defensive player besides White to come out of the 2017 draft. This roster doesn't resemble a "rebuild" so much as a dumpster fire. McDermott is great at dismantling an NFL team but he's clueless about how to rebuild it. He needs to go ... as does his henchman Beane. Clay and McCoy as staples of the offense should be over. They're old. Clay is 29, McCoy is 30. Those two are slowing down and our offense should not be built around them. Both of them need to be replaced with better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 You're never rebuilt until you have the QB. this franchise has been rebuilding for 20+ years. If Allen doesn't work out, they'll tear everything down and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, billsfan11 said: What young good Bills players/prospects do the Bills have? With the exception of White and maybe Edmunds. I like Allen and I HOPE he will be great one day, but I remain skeptical. White. Edmunds. Phillips. Johnson. Milano. Dawkins. Allen. Allen is still a great young prospect. Note the word prospect. It’s too early to say which way it will go. That’s kind of the point of the OP. The four our most important pieces to building a team are LT, Pass Rusher, CB, and QB. We have young prospects who have shown some promise in 3 out of 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Clay and McCoy as staples of the offense should be over. They're old. Clay is 29, McCoy is 30. Those two are slowing down and our offense should not be built around them. Both of them need to be replaced with better players. I didn't say build around them. I was simply counting the NFL caliber talent on offense currently with the Bills. Personnally, I hope that McCoy ends up back in Philly, and I bet that Clay finds a good landing spot as well. Both deserve better than this crap that McDermott and Beane have put on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, SoTier said: I didn't say build around them. I was simply counting the NFL caliber talent on offense currently with the Bills. Personnally, I hope that McCoy ends up back in Philly, and I bet that Clay finds a good landing spot as well. Both deserve better than this crap that McDermott and Beane have put on the field. No problem. Besides, they are hold overs from Whaley. Whaley gets the credit for them. This regime has done nothing to show they can find and sign top flight offensive talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Buffalo Joe Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I believe that they have decided to follow the Astros model of rebuilding, which is a total tear down from top to bottom. They are getting the pieces in place while suffering big losses to build a consistent winner for the future. Consistently putting a band aid on the problems by handing out bad contracts to remain 8-8 or 7-9 isn’t going to build a winner. Building through the draft and when you’re ready to win, adding the needed veterans is the proper way to rebuild. The Astros had Altuve, Springer and drafted Correa and Bregman. When they were ready, they got Verlander. They lost over 100 games for several years in a row but set themselves up for long term success. I believe that’s the model they are following. We have excellent pieces on defense and hopefully our QB. As a fan of both teams, I agree. I used to go to games, and Altuve would hit a lead of single. Steal second, steal 3rd, and every single time get stranded. I was hopeful that it would work, but doubted. I think if The Bills had kept Tyrod Taylor, we'd probably have another shot this year at sneaking into the playoffs. But we're not getting any further than that. We're taking the short term loss for the long term gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I believe that they have decided to follow the Astros model of rebuilding, which is a total tear down from top to bottom. They are getting the pieces in place while suffering big losses to build a consistent winner for the future. Consistently putting a band aid on the problems by handing out bad contracts to remain 8-8 or 7-9 isn’t going to build a winner. Building through the draft and when you’re ready to win, adding the needed veterans is the proper way to rebuild. The Astros had Altuve, Springer and drafted Correa and Bregman. When they were ready, they got Verlander. They lost over 100 games for several years in a row but set themselves up for long term success. I believe that’s the model they are following. We have excellent pieces on defense and hopefully our QB. I've thought this was the plan all along when they started trading Watkins/Dareus/Ragland and Darby last season. Those who say they don't believe this regime can draft the correct players I'd say Tre'Davious White looks pretty darn good, Milano, Dawkins as well and Allen/ Edmunds show promise so far. It's just hard watching another season of the same we've been watching for so many years but I'm excited for 2019 with all that cap space plus the draft picks. I like how we've drafted so far and we already have some decent free agents on the roster. The OL/WR and secondary will mostly look completely different next year which is a great thing imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzboy54 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Southern Bills Fan said: I believe that they have decided to follow the Astros model of rebuilding, which is a total tear down from top to bottom. They are getting the pieces in place while suffering big losses to build a consistent winner for the future. Consistently putting a band aid on the problems by handing out bad contracts to remain 8-8 or 7-9 isn’t going to build a winner. Building through the draft and when you’re ready to win, adding the needed veterans is the proper way to rebuild. The Astros had Altuve, Springer and drafted Correa and Bregman. When they were ready, they got Verlander. They lost over 100 games for several years in a row but set themselves up for long term success. I believe that’s the model they are following. We have excellent pieces on defense and hopefully our QB. This office has shown zero ability to choose decent offensive talent, much less good offensive talent. They passed on a QB who is next level good for a guy who struggles to simply throw the ball. This is not so much the Astro's as the 78 Buccaneers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Somebody wake me up when the Bills have the home grown talent-wise equivalent of Springer, Altuve, Correa, Kuechel & Bregman....and they then have a GM shrewd enough to acquire talent like Verlander, Cole & Morton. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 17 minutes ago, LabattBlue said: Somebody wake me up when the Bills have the home grown talent-wise equivalent of Springer, Altuve, Correa, Kuechel & Bregman....and they then have a GM shrewd enough to acquire talent like Verlander, Cole & Morton. I read Connor McGregor just donated WS tickets to each of those dudes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillies Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Even the LAstros won 51 games that year (a .315 winning %). With only 16 games (vs 162) each NFL game is like 10 baseball games (in terms of importance). Going 5-11 is a .313 winning % Not sure we'll even hit Astros 2013 level this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I read Connor McGregor just donated WS tickets to each of those dudes.. I get it...because after winning the World Series last season they lost in the ALCS this year.....I see what you did there...clever Edited October 22, 2018 by nucci 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, whatdrought said: White. Edmunds. Phillips. Johnson. Milano. Dawkins. Allen. Allen is still a great young prospect. Note the word prospect. It’s too early to say which way it will go. That’s kind of the point of the OP. The four our most important pieces to building a team are LT, Pass Rusher, CB, and QB. We have young prospects who have shown some promise in 3 out of 4. I personally wouldn’t say Phillips, Johnson, Milano and Dawkins are “high end” talent. They are mostly mid round picks. They are playing well for the most part I will give them that. But they aren’t high first round talent/potential like the Astros had, as that was the comparison in this thread. Edited October 22, 2018 by billsfan11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Even if the astros had to replace/rebuild the entire team that’s only 9-12 players. The bills are more than that away from contending right now including the most important position qb. How many years did it take Houston? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, billsfan11 said: I personally wouldn’t say Phillips, Johnson, Milano and Dawkins are “high end” talent. They are mostly mid round picks. They are playing well for the most part I will give them that. But they aren’t high first round talent/potential like the Astros had, as that was the comparison in this thread. Round of selection means nothing, what they show on the field means everything. So far they have shown to be decent players with bright futures. They could become the core of this team going forward, they could not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Round of selection means nothing, what they show on the field means everything. So far they have shown to be decent players with bright futures. They could become the core of this team going forward, they could not. In this comparison it does mean something though. The Astros had elite level young talent. They were Can’t miss players that were drafted top 3 in consecutive drafts. A mid 3rd round pick that looks “descent “ does not compare to the elite young talent the astros had. Most teams have 2nd and 3rd round picks that are descent players who could have promising futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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