Someone needs to be fired over Mahomes right now.

[mead107]

This thread should be awesome by draft day 

[17 Josh Allen]

mahomes has 5 straight games over 300 yards 16 TDs. He is on pace for around 42 TD passes. How many years will it take the bills to get 5, 300 yard passing games. mahomes has done it 5 times in his first 7 games. Billsareback which was my name during that draft class discussion on these boards and jeffsmagic tried to tell you that this guy was the next great one. But all we got was ridicule for our opinions. Feels good to be vindicated. note I do love Josh Allen and I willing to stay behind him and root for him. But I think mahomes will end up being the better QB when it’s all said and done. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by 17 Josh Allen

[RyanC883]

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

[fridge]

1 minute ago, RyanC883 said:

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

 

You honestly think Allen would be playing like Mahomes right now if he was on the Chiefs?

[bouds]

7 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

You honestly think Allen would be playing like Mahomes right now if he was on the Chiefs?

 

Folks love to delude themselves.  If they can't see the difference between the two there's no real point in even discussing it.  The Grand Canyon currently separates the two in terms of skill set.

[The Frankish Reich]

Allow me to summarize the arguments against the OP's proposition - "Someone needs to be fired over Mahomes right now" --

1. "Mahomes has more offensive talent around him." So ... the Bills brain trust that passed on Mahomes ought to be given a mulligan because they also failed to address other critical needs on offense?  This one boils down to, "Sure, they blew it with Mahomes, but they also blew it with the WR corps and the O line, so it's really not just about passing on Mahomes."  McDermott and Beane ought to feel secure about this one. (A variant on this one: blame Doug Whaley because he technically presided over that draft even though nobody really thinks he made the call on this one.)

2. "But Mahomes is playing under a very talented offensive coaching staff." So ... we should definitely not blame Bills management who, after all, hired those inferior coaches.

3.  "But we got Tre White in the deal, and then a draft pick that allowed us to trade up for our guy at QB the following year."  So ... we ought to feel happy that we have a shutdown CB to go with a raw project at QB. In other words, the Browns c. 2011. Joe Haden, Shutdown Corner + Colt McCoy = 4-12.  Or perhaps more accurately, the Browns 2012:  Joe Haden + Brandon Weeden. They got their man all right. (I will admit that this argument has some logic to it, at least a whole lot more than the others, but I'm not sold.)

4. "But Josh Allen is more talented than Mahomes and will be a better QB when all is said and done." Now we're in pure denial mode, or what behavioral economists call the endowment effect - "I'm not trading my lottery ticket for that $10 million! The jackpot is now at $530 million! I'd be a fool to give up the chance for that fortune." (Yes, I believe Allen MAY be good ... I'd give him perhaps a 1 in 3 chance of being a very good starting QB. Mahomes is definitely - 100% - a very good starting QB RIGHT NOW. Maybe better than just very good.)

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by The Frankish Reich

[ILBillsfan]

Lol this is a great thread week by week it gets better n better ?

 

mahomes is light years ahead of Allen

[17 Josh Allen]

14 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Allow me to summarize the arguments against the OP's proposition - "Someone needs to be fired over Mahomes right now" --

1. "Mahomes has more offensive talent around him." So ... the Bills brain trust that passed on Mahomes ought to be given a mulligan because they also failed to address other critical needs on offense?  This one boils down to, "Sure, they blew it with Mahomes, but they also blew it with the WR corps and the O line, so it's really not just about passing on Mahomes."  McDermott and Beane ought to feel secure about this one. (A variant on this one: blame Doug Whaley because he technically presided over that draft even though nobody really thinks he made the call on this one.)

2. "But Mahomes is playing under a very talented offensive coaching staff." So ... we should definitely not blame Bills management who, after all, hired those inferior coaches.

3.  "But we got Tre White in the deal, and then a draft pick that allowed us to trade up for our guy at QB the following year."  So ... we ought to feel happy that we have a shutdown CB to go with a raw project at QB. In other words, the Browns c. 2011. Joe Haden, Shutdown Corner + Colt McCoy = 4-12.  Or perhaps more accurately, the Browns 2012:  Joe Haden + Brandon Weeden. They got their man all right. (I will admit that this argument has some logic to it, at least a whole lot more than the others, but I'm not sold.)

4. "But Josh Allen is more talented than Mahomes and will be a better QB when all is said and done." Now we're in pure denial mode, or what behavioral economists call the endowment effect - "I'm not trading my lottery ticket for that $10 million! The jackpot is now at $530 million! I'd be a fool to give up the chance for that fortune." (Yes, I believe Allen MAY be good ... I'd give him perhaps a 1 in 3 chance of being a very good starting QB. Mahomes is definitely - 100% - a very good starting QB RIGHT NOW. Maybe better than just very good.)

 

Wow this is the most epic true post and thread about what happen to the Bills not drafting Mahomes. This my friend was a epic beat down to the mahomes haters. 

[The Frankish Reich]

37 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

Here is a perfect example of my Type 2 fallacy - "you can't blame the Bills braintrust for passing on Mahomes ... after all, they've failed to put in place an effective coaching staff, an impact receiver, or a competent offensive line too."

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Boy Mahomes tore it up tonight 

 

[fridge]

4 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Here is a perfect example of my Type 2 fallacy - "you can't blame the Bills braintrust for passing on Mahomes ... after all, they've failed to put in place an effective coaching staff, an impact receiver, or a competent offensive line too."

 

You nailed it.

 

The most annoying part of this "rebuild" is hearing fans bring it up like we were pre-selected as the team who needs to gut their roster this season. We did this to ourselves, and worst of all, we need to have faith in this management to be the ones to figure it out.

 

"How could Allen succeed with this roster" is a great question, and one they should have addressed two years ago when they blatantly started going all in on their QB.

 

The icing on the cake for me is that we have Daboll, who has massive warts from his THREE failed OC opportunities, but all we heard was a how he held a clipboard for a national championship and fetched water for the Patriots***.

 

I'd like to think that we as Bills fans are experts in mediocrity. We tend to split up around this point in the season, where half become skeptical and the other half become delusional. The skeptical fans are trying to figure out how McDermott is even remotely capable of fielding an offense worthy of playing this century, while the delusional see Josh Allen's big arm and call it a day.  

 

Obviously its more nuanced than that, but it does boil down to this: In nearly 20 years we haven't been good at all. We've had decent defenses and flashes here and there, but both sides, the delusional and skeptical alike had determined we need a QB.

 

Every game that goes by where we don't have one -- and every game that goes by where Mahomes and the like light it up -- deep down we all know we're one game closer to the eventual head coach firing.

 

I'm not a fan of this cyclical ritual, but as earlier stated, I'm an expert in mediocrity, and I can see this one coming from a mile away.

 

Josh Allen could be great, and I'm hoping against hope that is... but as of today he's got a lot more in common with EJ, Trent, JP, etc. than Mahomes and his peers.

 

 

[Fadingpain]

48 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

Lol this is a great thread week by week it gets better n better ?

 

mahomes is light years ahead of Allen

Yes he is, and the kicker is that Allen is not going to catch up.

 

 

[Success]

1 hour ago, fridge said:

 

You honestly think Allen would be playing like Mahomes right now if he was on the Chiefs?

You think Mahomes would look like this had he started last year?

[Fadingpain]

26 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

You nailed it.

 

The most annoying part of this "rebuild" is hearing fans bring it up like we were pre-selected as the team who needs to gut their roster this season. We did this to ourselves, and worst of all, we need to have faith in this management to be the ones to figure it out.

 

"How could Allen succeed with this roster" is a great question, and one they should have addressed two years ago when they blatantly started going all in on their QB.

 

The icing on the cake for me is that we have Daboll, who has massive warts from his THREE failed OC opportunities, but all we heard was a how he held a clipboard for a national championship and fetched water for the Patriots***.

 

I'd like to think that we as Bills fans are experts in mediocrity. We tend to split up around this point in the season, where half become skeptical and the other half become delusional. The skeptical fans are trying to figure out how McDermott is even remotely capable of fielding an offense worthy of playing this century, while the delusional see Josh Allen's big arm and call it a day.  

 

Obviously its more nuanced than that, but it does boil down to this: In nearly 20 years we haven't been good at all. We've had decent defenses and flashes here and there, but both sides, the delusional and skeptical alike had determined we need a QB.

 

Every game that goes by where we don't have one -- and every game that goes by where Mahomes and the like light it up -- deep down we all know we're one game closer to the eventual head coach firing.

 

I'm not a fan of this cyclical ritual, but as earlier stated, I'm an expert in mediocrity, and I can see this one coming from a mile away.

 

Josh Allen could be great, and I'm hoping against hope that is... but as of today he's got a lot more in common with EJ, Trent, JP, etc. than Mahomes and his peers.

 

 

Great post, Mr. Fridge.

 

I'm the fan seeing what you are spelling out down the road, and wanting to try and mitigate some of the damage up front, by taking another QB in the draft next year, particularly if we finish with a really bad record.  I.E., top draft pick.

 

Another idea that needs pursuing is acquiring Teddy Bridgewater in free agency.  He could be better than drafting a new QB in any event.  I think he has real promise.

 

As things stand now, we are a season away from Allen being declared a bust and McBeane on their way out the door or at least being shown the door, even if they haven't left the room yet.

 

Let's get out in front of this thing while we can and avoid more cyclical down time.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Fadingpain

[fridge]

19 minutes ago, Success said:

You think Mahomes would look like this had he started last year?

 

We'll get nowhere in hypotheticals, but what specifically about Mahomes' success has led you to believe it came from a season of grooming?

[Yav]

3 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Paging @John from Riverside @Yav

 

Mahomes the god 

Let it go. Not a fan and can’t stand KC or their obnoxious fans that seem to think it’s ok to disrespect the national anthem.

[BullBuchanan]

The Chiefs Offense looks every bit the equal of the 99 Rams. I agree that we should've taken a QB that year, but the smart money was Watson there. Mahommes would have been a bust here - he wouldn't have had the veteran QB leadership, Hall of Fame coach, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelce, OLine, etc. that he has in KC. Mahommes has looked excellent so far, but Hill, Hunt, and Kelce were wrecking people with Alex Smith at the helm.

 

Hill/Hunt made Mahommes look better than he played today

52 minutes ago, Yav said:

Let it go. Not a fan and can’t stand KC or their obnoxious fans that seem to think it’s ok to disrespect the national anthem.

It is ok. Might want to bone up on the history of that country you pretend to care about so much.

[Mountain Man]

4 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

Is the correct answer.

3 hours ago, fridge said:

 

We'll get nowhere in hypotheticals, but what specifically about Mahomes' success has led you to believe it came from a season of grooming?

History.

[AllenWillBust]

6 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

 

Ah yes, Bills fans making excuses, we do have the best fan base, the best at making excuses!

[papazoid]

Mahomes = Franchise QB = Top 10 (already there)

 

Allen = Solid Starter = Top 15-20 (upside)…...currently Top 25- 30

 

Andy Reid is smarter than McDermott regarding that trade

 

 

[Fred Clause]

4 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

The Chiefs Offense looks every bit the equal of the 99 Rams. I agree that we should've taken a QB that year, but the smart money was Watson there. Mahommes would have been a bust here - he wouldn't have had the veteran QB leadership, Hall of Fame coach, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelce, OLine, etc. that he has in KC. Mahommes has looked excellent so far, but Hill, Hunt, and Kelce were wrecking people with Alex Smith at the helm.

 

Hill/Hunt made Mahommes look better than he played today

It is ok. Might want to bone up on the history of that country you pretend to care about so much.

Maybe you should leave this country if you think it was so bad. Your take on this country is as bad as your takes on the Bills...

[Teddy KGB]

1 minute ago, Fred Clause said:

Maybe you should leave this country if you think it was so bad. Your take on this country is as bad as your takes on the Bills...

 

USA the goat ! 

 

?? ?? ??????????

[PatsFanNH]

10 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

Mahomes has Andy Reid, T. Hill, and a much better O-line.   

 

 

Don’t forget about Hunt, and the second best TE in the NFL..  he has weapons make him look good even when he makes bad throws (last long TD By hill which was way high that he went up and got.)

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, papazoid said:

Mahomes = Franchise QB = Top 10 (already there)

 

Allen = Solid Starter = Top 15-20 (upside)…...currently Top 25- 30

 

Andy Reid is smarter than McDermott regarding that trade

 

 

You think Allen is top 25-30 right now?

9 hours ago, Success said:

You think Mahomes would look like this had he started last year?

I think he would look better than Allen.  

[LFC24]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You think Allen is top 25-30 right now?

 

Allen is the worst starting QB in the NFL 

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Here is a perfect example of my Type 2 fallacy - "you can't blame the Bills braintrust for passing on Mahomes ... after all, they've failed to put in place an effective coaching staff, an impact receiver, or a competent offensive line too."

Yeah, I don’t get this line of thinking. SM is on OC number 2 already.  Most of their offensive decisions have been horrible.  They picked a raw qb who wasn’t that great in college and were forced to play him because their other option is so terrible.  

 

How can anyone be confident with them going forward?  

2 minutes ago, LFC24 said:

 

Allen is the worst starting QB in the NFL 

There are backups better than him.  I mean he’s young but he has been.  He’s way worse than EJ was as rookie!

[jrober38]

14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You think Allen is top 25-30 right now?

 

He's the worst starter in the league and it's not close.

 

There are probably 25 backups I'd take over him at this point. 

[OrtonHearsaWho]

Am I thrilled with Allen so far?  No I'm not. 

 

At the same time, I am so freaking tired of threads like this.  Would we have been better off drafting him?  Absolutely no one can definitively say yes.  Weren't we saying the same thing about Watson by this time last season?  He looks very average so far this year and we just made him look pretty awful.  Dak Prescott was an MVP candidate his rookie year...then what?  Middle of the pack.

 

I'm not about to label Allen a bust and I'm not about to put Mahomes in the hall of fame.  One looks bad right now and one looks great but to use the sample size that we've have of both players and then make a black & white opinion is insane at best and ignorant at worst although not very out of line with how opinions are formed about everything else in this country.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

Am I thrilled with Allen so far?  No I'm not. 

 

At the same time, I am so freaking tired of threads like this.  Would we have been better off drafting him?  Absolutely no one can definitively say yes.  Weren't we saying the same thing about Watson by this time last season?  He looks very average so far this year and we just made him look pretty awful.  Dak Prescott was an MVP candidate his rookie year...then what?  Middle of the pack.

 

I'm not about to label Allen a bust and I'm not about to put Mahomes in the hall of fame.  One looks bad right now and one looks great but to use the sample size that we've have of both players and then make a black & white opinion is insane at best and ignorant at worst although not very out of line with how opinions are formed about everything else in this country.

 

You can't definitely say we'd be better off, but you can make a highly educated guess. 

 

Mahomes was an elite passer coming out of college. He needed to learn the NFL offense, but the ability to throw accurate passes all over the field was clearly there when evaluating him as a prospect. 

 

Allen was a mediocre QB in a terrible conference. He was a game manager in college who wasn't asked to do much. 

 

It's entirely fair to be critical of us passing on Mahomes for the same type of prospect as Allen. Mahomes looks amazing and Allen is hands down the worst starting QB in the league right now.

 

Why do we need to tear down other QBs to make our QB not look as bad? We'd be in the heart of the playoff race with any of the guys you mentioned. 

[TheElectricCompany]

8 minutes ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

 

I'm not about to label Allen a bust and I'm not about to put Mahomes in the hall of fame.  One looks bad right now and one looks great but to use the sample size that we've have of both players and then make a black & white opinion is insane at best and ignorant at worst although not very out of line with how opinions are formed about everything else in this country.

 

Mahomes has put up 20 TDs in 6 games.

I'd bet the only QBs who have done that before are current elites or HOFers, so he's in really good company. 

 

[OrtonHearsaWho]

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Mahomes has put up 20 TDs in 6 games.

I'd bet the only QBs who have done that before are current elites or HOFers, so he's in really good company. 

 

 

Also the other QB that I mentioned...Deshaun Watson.  Definitely looked elite yesterday.

 

Again I am not saying that he is not going to be great...he very well could be but it's also possible that he'll come back down to Earth once there is tape on him...like Watson...like Prescott.  Frankly I hope he stays just as good because the league could use the excitement but I'm not going to anoint him after 7 starts and I'm not ready to give up on Allen after 5 starts.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I won't let the Bills incompetence make me hate Patrick Mahomes. He's just so incredible to watch.

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

 

Also the other QB that I mentioned...Deshaun Watson.  Definitely looked elite yesterday.

 

Again I am not saying that he is not going to be great...he very well could be but it's also possible that he'll come back down to Earth once there is tape on him...like Watson...like Prescott.  Frankly I hope he stays just as good because the league could use the excitement but I'm not going to anoint him after 7 starts and I'm not ready to give up on Allen after 5 starts.

 

Deshaun Watson has been exponentially better than Josh Allen this year. 

 

He had a bad game yesterday against an elite defense, but over the course of the year he's averaging almost 300 yards per game passing, 8.3 YPA and a QB Rating of 90.8. 

 

If we had that type of QB play with our elite defense instead of the garbage we've had from Peterman and Allen, we'd likely be 4-2 or possibly 5-1 right now.

[RyanC883]

5 hours ago, AllenWillBust said:

 

Ah yes, Bills fans making excuses, we do have the best fan base, the best at making excuses!

 

Apparently facts don't matter to you.    Is Allen surrounded by as much talent as Mahomes?   Did he sit for a year and learn from Reid and A. Smith.   Does Allen have anyone of the caliber (or near it) to Reid to discuss plays with during the game?   

[PatsFanNH]

Ok outside perspective:

 

Mahomes - second year player with a talented WR/TE along with a super talented RB in Hunt.  He also has a average to slightly above average line..  (was labeled a minor project in his draft class that would help from sitting and learning which he did)

 

Judgement: any competent QB back there would  look good. Mahommes is above average in my opinion based on his ability extend plays circa Big Ben.

 

final thoughts: be a top 10 QB whose mistakes will cost them 2 or 3 games this year as his defense is not good enough overcome them. (2-3 loses included last nights game)

 

Allen - A rookie with a below average WR/TE as well as O Line. The only true known talent on theO is McCoy the Bills RB and he is 30 with a lot of wear and tear on his legs.  (Was also labeled as the best pure athlete in his draft class with the raw potential be a great QB bit needed time to develop.. was thrown into the fray his rookie year.

 

Judgement: you really can’t make one, he is what everyone thought he was a Raw talented player that needed time to develop who has ZERO  weapons around him make him look better than he currently is.  Be honest he been a perfect fit for a team like Nee Orleans or New England  with an aging, great QB, that he could learn behind and get himself up to NFL Speed... but he isn’t there and the he is learning the speed of the NFL on the fly. He has shown flashes of what makes him a top prospect but like most rookies also made dumb mistakes.  

Final thoughts: GIVE THE KID A BREAK! It be at least 2 years before you know if you got a true diamond in the ruff now. But the Bills will be competitive and should win their fare share of games and possibly knock on the playoff door again. (Lot of 3 and 4 loss teams already)

Edited October 15, 2018 by PatsFanNH

[TheElectricCompany]

35 minutes ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

 

Also the other QB that I mentioned...Deshaun Watson.  Definitely looked elite yesterday.

 

Again I am not saying that he is not going to be great...he very well could be but it's also possible that he'll come back down to Earth once there is tape on him...like Watson...like Prescott.  Frankly I hope he stays just as good because the league could use the excitement but I'm not going to anoint him after 7 starts and I'm not ready to give up on Allen after 5 starts.

 

What is the tape going to tell you about Mahomes? Do you think defenses have some secret weapon they can pull out? 

If a QB can throw with tremendous accuracy and anticipation down the field, it's over. No defense can shut down that down. 

He scored 23 points against an elite defense last week. He torched the Pats for 40 points yesterday on the road. 

Funny how we're expecting all the young guns like Trubisky, Mahomes and Goff to cool off with "tape"
 

 

[OrtonHearsaWho]

2 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

What is the tape going to tell you about Mahomes? Do you think defenses have some secret weapon they can pull out? 

If a QB can throw with tremendous accuracy and anticipation down the field, it's over. No defense can shut down that down. 

He scored 23 points against an elite defense last week. He torched the Pats for 40 points yesterday on the road. 

Funny how we're expecting all the young guns like Trubisky, Mahomes and Goff to cool off with "tape"
 

 

 

The other things that those QBs have - a supporting cast and capable offensive coaching staffs.

[TheElectricCompany]

3 minutes ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

 

The other things that those QBs have - a supporting cast and capable offensive coaching staffs.

 

Of course, but those are complimentary pieces. 

The #1 reason those QBs look great is because they can consistently throw with great accuracy and anticipation down the field. 

That's really what elite QB play comes down

[OrtonHearsaWho]

12 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Of course, but those are complimentary pieces. 

The #1 reason those QBs look great is because they can consistently throw with great accuracy and anticipation down the field. 

That's really what elite QB play comes down

 

I don't disagree with you at all.

 

My main reason for commenting is because of the tenor of the OP.  I get the knee jerk reactions to the team but relitigating draft picks is such a constant theme here (likely on all other teams boards as well) that it drives me insane.

 

It's a whole lot easier to look at Mahomes and say "yeah he's going to be great for a while" because he has one more off-season under his belt and because those complimentary pieces (surrounding talent & coaching) are likely going to be around for a while.  My reaction is in response to the number of people writing off Allen so quickly.  He might be a bust and he might not be but to make declarations (again others here - I'm not pointing a finger) with SUCH certainly this early in his development is crazy.

[Yav]

9 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

The Chiefs Offense looks every bit the equal of the 99 Rams. I agree that we should've taken a QB that year, but the smart money was Watson there. Mahommes would have been a bust here - he wouldn't have had the veteran QB leadership, Hall of Fame coach, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelce, OLine, etc. that he has in KC. Mahommes has looked excellent so far, but Hill, Hunt, and Kelce were wrecking people with Alex Smith at the helm.

 

Hill/Hunt made Mahommes look better than he played today

It is ok. Might want to bone up on the history of that country you pretend to care about so much.

If you're trying to question my patriotism or my knowledge of the United States I do believe you just crossed the line. 

 

I suggest you take a long look at what goes on during the national anthem at chefs games. Then start looking on line and you'll see chefs fans complaining about players taking a knee while not wearing a hat and looking at the flag while the national anthem is being played.

 

As for mahommes, I couldn't care any less than I do right now about him. I watched the game, and on the last td play he threw look close, he had time in the pocket (better line than the bills), then look at hill get wide open and still have to jump for a pass that was over thrown, he adjusted made a good catch and then out ran every player on the field. I suppose that's all because mahommes right? NO. Again, he needs to show he can have success for more than 6 games and more than 1 year (see Prescott in Dallas and Watson in Houston, or Winstead in Tampa, better yet Kaepernick).

 

There is no comparing a true rookie like Allen to a second year player. mahommes had the luxury of sitting and learning the offense for an entire year behind Smith, he also has the luxury of having some damn good offensive coaches. Again, I'll reserve my judgement on him until he can show he's not a pretender like the others.