Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: leg/footwork is so easy to teach its not even funny. I think your nitpicking. Is it really though? Can you say more, give examples, and so on? Really curious here. Just on logic, I think any change to technique in an elite athlete must hard. There are years of muscle memory to overcome. Then there have been a number of QB where we're told the root of their inaccuracy is in their lower body, feet and legs and hips - and yet they don't improve. 2 hours ago, Golden Goat said: Last year, Allen was throwing to 2 sophomores and 3 freshmen. Not a single Wyoming running back, receiver or tight end was a starter the previous year. Let's see what he can do with a strong supporting cast before running him out of town? Do you really see anyone "running him out of town"? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Utah John said: He hit the receiver in stride, 65 yards down field, without good mechanics and while falling backward. Geez Louise. And you're worried about style points? I'm not sure he's going to be a good draft pick but it will be fun to watch. Well, honestly, yea... it’s cool he has a monster arm but that highlight - as fun as it is- probably is as much of a red flag as a positive. Making that throw as rare as possible in his nfl game will be a goal. 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Is it really though? Can you say more, give examples, and so on? Really curious here. Just on logic, I think any change to technique in an elite athlete must hard. There are years of muscle memory to overcome. Then there have been a number of QB where we're told the root of their inaccuracy is in their lower body, feet and legs and hips - and yet they don't improve. Do you really see anyone "running him out of town"? Thats the thing in these settings- we always see the offseason message board posts of “with another year he will be much better” but plenty of guys dont take regular strides forward like we assume. Fingers crossed he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, NoSaint said: Well, honestly, yea... it’s cool he has a monster arm but that highlight - as fun as it is- probably is as much of a red flag as a positive. Making that throw as rare as possible in his nfl game will be a goal. Thats the thing in these settings- we always see the offseason message board posts of “with another year he will be much better” but plenty of guys dont take regular strides forward like we assume. Fingers crossed he does Correct. If he tries to make throws like that in the NFL, he'll have a very short career - back-footed heaves downfield are a recipe for destruction, no matter how strong of an arm you have. This is why it's so dangerous to draft based upon measurables - guys like Allen often end up relying solely on their arm talent to bail them out of trouble and ignore fundamentals like footwork and play design, and that's why they flame out. Allen might make it - but to me, the odds are stacked against him and I didn't (and still don't) feel that the Bills should be in the risk-taking game at the QB position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Virginian Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Another QB with a low college completion percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Greek Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: leg/footwork is so easy to teach its not even funny. I think your nitpicking. If that's true..why wasn't the coaching staff at Wyoming able to teach him the footwork then? Is NFL coaching that much better than college? I truly hope we got the guys to teach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: Correct. If he tries to make throws like that in the NFL, he'll have a very short career - back-footed heaves downfield are a recipe for destruction, no matter how strong of an arm you have. This is why it's so dangerous to draft based upon measurables - guys like Allen often end up relying solely on their arm talent to bail them out of trouble and ignore fundamentals like footwork and play design, and that's why they flame out. Allen might make it - but to me, the odds are stacked against him and I didn't (and still don't) feel that the Bills should be in the risk-taking game at the QB position. This is exactly where I am. How many quarterbacks have we been told could be coached up, learn better footwork, get a better throwing motion in the NFL. It's extremely rare. We just got to hope beyond hope that this kid is a one of those rarities. This franchise seems to like big arm quarterbacks that need to be taught the position and how to process at game speed. Here's a short roll call, Rob Johnson, JP losman, EJ, Cardale. I'm not optimistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racketmaster Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 7 hours ago, LikeIGiveADarn said: Wait... Josh Allen has thrown an interception?... Why weren't we told!?! 6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: I would feel better if he stepped up in the massive pocket he had and threw that with both feet on the ground. The play was a designed roll out and as soon as he catches the snap he is rolling to the right and has to drift back due to the pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 3 hours ago, JMF2006 said: That throw was not from the Wyoming 40 it was the offensive 40 look at the chevrons. Like Bull said why was he rolling out and back pedaling out of a clean pocket? Then not setting and throwing off his back foot will lead to disaster in the NFL. Obviously the footwork isn’t good, but he rolled out because that’s the way the play was designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinTheMagician Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 7 hours ago, Utah John said: He hit the receiver in stride, 65 yards down field, without good mechanics and while falling backward. Geez Louise. And you're worried about style points? I'm not sure he's going to be a good draft pick but it will be fun to watch. I had not seen that throw before. Absolutely ridiculous!!! Man, I would be he will be a great draft pick. Maybe our best of all time. Coachable, will fix his platform. Smart, tough, strong as an ox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd1 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 "Please Stand By" ????? Anyone else can't view the video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 7 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: I would feel better if he stepped up in the massive pocket he had and threw that with both feet on the ground. I think the play design was hitting the TE in the flat. Allen immediately rolled out right after the snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 58 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Is it really though? Can you say more, give examples, and so on? Really curious here. Just on logic, I think any change to technique in an elite athlete must hard. There are years of muscle memory to overcome. Then there have been a number of QB where we're told the root of their inaccuracy is in their lower body, feet and legs and hips - and yet they don't improve. Do you really see anyone "running him out of town"? I don’t know if it is easy - mental reps and falling into old habits is very hard to break, but unlike many of these other QBs that focused solely on QB play since junior high - Josh did not have that luxury. He played multiple sports throughout school because of the size and if anyone thinks the coaching staff at Wyoming had the people and the time to devote to teaching one specific position the way he NFL does - they are crazy. What I loved about listening to Jordan Palmer leading up to the draft is how he kept talking about how coachable this guy was and how little he had been taught. Jordan worked with both Josh and Sam and gushed repeatedly about Josh in every interview I heard. He had good things to say about Sam, but the praise for Josh was on a different level. It was also noted that after working with Palmer for a few weeks - his accuracy, footwork, and play in the Senior Bowl was vastly improved. The work continued and his throws at the combine and his Pro Day and his private workouts was supposedly excellent. None of that means it will stick, but if as Palmer was saying - a lot of his issues with accuracy and touch were due to never learning proper footwork and throwing base - then yes he can improve. I will never expect him to lead the league in completion percentage- he is not Drew Brees or Brady, but if he can get better and make the needed throws on time - he can be a franchise level QB that can win you games in this league. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 brett favre threw 336 interceptions....just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Peace Frog said: He also makes throws like these. That's really excellent pocket control. No one can deny he has all the tools, we just have to bring him along slowly and hope he finds some consistency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodman19 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 It shows you two things if this is true. First, the reason we paid such a premium is because we were probably in a bidding war to move up to 7 and we were being auctioned off against each other and secondly, the fact that we paid what we did and knew we had to make the move at 7 or someone else was about to that we would lose Allen and be stuck with Rosen they still made the trade. It shows how much more highly ranked we had Allen and apparently so did the Cards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 44 minutes ago, Green Lightning said: This is exactly where I am. How many quarterbacks have we been told could be coached up, learn better footwork, get a better throwing motion in the NFL. It's extremely rare. We just got to hope beyond hope that this kid is a one of those rarities. This franchise seems to like big arm quarterbacks that need to be taught the position and how to process at game speed. Here's a short roll call, Rob Johnson, JP losman, EJ, Cardale. I'm not optimistic. Changing a throwing motion or arm placement is very, very difficult and I do not think goes very well ever. That is inherent to the QBs passing. Better footwork and learning how to stride and square up is more teachable. The question becomes when under pressure do you revert. Many times - especially a guy with a rocket for an arm - they throw everything with just their arm and once shown proper feet placement they can improve. Watching QBs play - the arm motion changes very little for most QBs throw to throw, but their feet change every play depending on if they are on the move, pocket collapsing, getting pressure from the side, stepping up. I think the base is easier to teach than a change in arm motion. Additionally that is what Palmer has been working on. I wish I knew if it would work, but to me working the base is better than guys like Mahomes last year with a funky throwing motion they wanted to work on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 7 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: I would feel better if he stepped up in the massive pocket he had and threw that with both feet on the ground. Won't be much pocket going on in Buffalo this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins Malone Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 8 hours ago, Doc Brown said: This might make them feel better. First qb to ever to that. Where did you find such a rare video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said: I don’t know if it is easy - mental reps and falling into old habits is very hard to break, but unlike many of these other QBs that focused solely on QB play since junior high - Josh did not have that luxury. He played multiple sports throughout school because of the size and if anyone thinks the coaching staff at Wyoming had the people and the time to devote to teaching one specific position the way he NFL does - they are crazy. I don't know about "luxury". It's said it's actually very good for young athletes to play different sports and not specialize, as they develop different muscles and avoid overuse injuries that way. I'm guessing that his opportunities to play on club teams year round were also have been limited which is both drawback and benefit (see above). Maybe it's a good thing because it means his muscle memory for throwing a football isn't as entrenched as it would be for a kid who grew up with football throwing year-round. Allen played baseball so hopefully, he knows how to slide, and slide well as Russ Wilson or Kurt Cousins can slide, not as RGIII or Cam Newton "wtf was that?" fugliness. 1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said: It was also noted that after working with Palmer for a few weeks - his accuracy, footwork, and play in the Senior Bowl was vastly improved. The work continued and his throws at the combine and his Pro Day and his private workouts was supposedly excellent. I do have to say the video of his Pro Day shows a bunch of the same problems I saw in games and his combine. (Sorry to be a downer) There's a short throw which he sails high - the receiver nabs it but he has to go up. There's a long throw that sails on him. Then he repeats it and gets it right. I'll buy it that he's improving in practice, and that his footwork can be fixed and improve his accuracy - IF he can sit for a while and keep working and fix those things in his muscle memory. He's not there yet, from what is online that I saw. 12 minutes ago, Woodman19 said: It shows you two things if this is true. First, the reason we paid such a premium is because we were probably in a bidding war to move up to 7 and we were being auctioned off against each other and secondly, the fact that we paid what we did and knew we had to make the move at 7 or someone else was about to that we would lose Allen and be stuck with Rosen they still made the trade. It shows how much more highly ranked we had Allen and apparently so did the Cards. I agree. The pick was not the result of "either would work for us", the Bills had a definite ranking and they had Allen >>> Rosen. Allegedly, same for the Cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 hour ago, The Virginian said: Another QB with a low college completion percentage. Can we please have a moratorium on posting pre-2000 completetion percentage comparisons!!! It's maddening! It was a totally diffeent game then in terms of the rules and pass-run ratios. Like putting up Otto Graham's passing stats as a benchmark for looking at today's QBs... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 How is Rosen taking this now-essentially-confirmed news? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: How is Rosen taking this now-essentially-confirmed news? he revised his 9 mistakes made before him, down to 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: Thats the thing in these settings- we always see the offseason message board posts of “with another year he will be much better” but plenty of guys dont take regular strides forward like we assume. Fingers crossed he does I'm more optimistic after watching Senior Bowl highlights & the three practice days. Looked more fundamentally sound (without any pressure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) Arizona loved Logan Thomas too. Personally, I think the Bills saved them. Fitz will be a great mentor and I loved Kirk in the 2nd. That is a very good foundation. Edited April 28, 2018 by C.Biscuit97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, bobobonators said: Is that Peterman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, GG said: Is that Peterman? Haha. Love trashing the guy who put up 45 and has to score 50 because defense gave up 48. Exactly like Peterman and his 0 tds. What a loser!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Arizona loved Logan Thomas too. Personally, I think the Bills saved them. Fitz will be a great mentor and I loved Kirk in the 2nd. That is a very good foundation. I think the point is more that the Cards would definitely have traded up to 7 to take Allen, hence the reason the Bills had to give up more than what they otherwise should have. And Bruce Arians is gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: Haha. Love trashing the guy who put up 45 and has to score 50 because defense gave up 48. Exactly like Peterman and his 0 tds. What a loser!!! I'm certain that Peterman also put up north of 40 in college. But let's recap the context, since people are posting snippets of individual plays. That single play is vintage Peterman in the face of pressure. Even the uniforms look like Chargers' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, Doc said: I think the point is more that the Cards would definitely have traded up to 7 to take Allen, hence the reason the Bills had to give up more than what they otherwise should have. And Bruce Arians is gone. Same GM. I wish things were flipped but I guess time will tell. Right now, I think Rosen is in a better situation to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo44 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Yes. Rosen has a slightly higher touchdown to interception ratio though, but it's throws like these that scare me. Allen trusts his arm strength too much and it's hard to break habits no matter how well coached up he is. He has so many things he needs to clean up (footwork, decision making, anticipation, pre-snap adjustments) in order to be an effective NFL starter. That's a lot to ask of a player. I'm rooting for him, but I'm not holding my breath that he'll pan out. Most strong armed quarterbacks have had this problem coming into the national football league. This includes Jim Kelly. Their arm is so strong they think they can make any throw at any time. In college you this often worked. Not so in the NFL. Give the kid time. In my opinion, his brain and work ethic are as impressive as his physical skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, GG said: I'm certain that Peterman also put up north of 40 in college. But let's recap the context, since people are posting snippets of individual plays. That single play is vintage Peterman in the face of pressure. Even the uniforms look like Chargers' It’s just hilarious that you tried to laugh at a guy who put up 45 points. It’s completely irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Now Moment Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 36 minutes ago, papazoid said: brett favre threw 336 interceptions....just sayin He's also a hall of famer...just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: It’s just hilarious that you tried to laugh at a guy who put up 45 points. It’s completely irrational. No. I'm laughing at one single play in a thread where people are highlighting single plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Utah John said: He hit the receiver in stride, 65 yards down field, without good mechanics and while falling backward. Geez Louise. And you're worried about style points? I'm not sure he's going to be a good draft pick but it will be fun to watch. He threw it from the defenses 40. it wasnt a 65 yd throw Edited April 28, 2018 by Agent 91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosen-not-Chosen Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 6 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: the guy chucks the ball on his back foot 50+ yards on stride and your complaining? I know right? Because that is what wins SuperBowls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 32 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Changing a throwing motion or arm placement is very, very difficult and I do not think goes very well ever. That is inherent to the QBs passing. Better footwork and learning how to stride and square up is more teachable. The question becomes when under pressure do you revert. Many times - especially a guy with a rocket for an arm - they throw everything with just their arm and once shown proper feet placement they can improve. Watching QBs play - the arm motion changes very little for most QBs throw to throw, but their feet change every play depending on if they are on the move, pocket collapsing, getting pressure from the side, stepping up. I think the base is easier to teach than a change in arm motion. Additionally that is what Palmer has been working on. I wish I knew if it would work, but to me working the base is better than guys like Mahomes last year with a funky throwing motion they wanted to work on. I think you got it right. Throwing motion would seem incredibly difficult to change. Darnold's going to have an issue, then again Philip Rivers seems to do okay. As far as the feet go, it just seems when the bullets are flying they revert back to their old habits and start winging it, particularly guys with big arms. We're just going to have to see and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Same GM. I wish things were flipped but I guess time will tell. Right now, I think Rosen is in a better situation to succeed. Arians had personnel control, at least over offense. And I'm not so sure Rosen is in a good situation with the Cards. They're not a good football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: You need help, the guy chucks the ball on his back foot 50+ yards on stride and your complaining? And so do you.. you do no he threw for less INT then Rosen right? seek life else where Probably threw far fewer times too. We know they aren't in the same atmosphere as far as product. And name an NFL defense who will allow qb to be successful throwing 50 yes off his back foot. Didnt know that's how Brady Mannings Montana Young Elway all had their incredible successes. Climb the damn pocket. For the record Allen 21 ints in 3 years Rosen 26 ints in 3 yrs Rosen 1169 attempts Allen 649 attempts Edited April 28, 2018 by Agent 91 stats 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, Doc said: Arians had personnel control, at least over offense. And I'm not so sure Rosen is in a good situation with the Cards. They're not a good football team. Loved, loved their Christian Kirk pick last night. Don’t love their ol or overpayment of Bradford and Glennon. The fact they paid both of these guys makes me think they definitely didn’t have Rosen as plan A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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