The Ultimate Bills Debate - Was Doug Whaley A Good GM?

[BuffaloRush]

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

Edited December 2, 2017 by BuffaloRush

[Bangarang]

No, he wasn’t.

[billsherd]

He was good Scout. 

[aceman_16]

GM = no. Scout = yes.

[Augie]

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. No hate, no blind love here. He was a good scout in many ways, making some nice trades and picking up some FA jewels. But he failed to “build a team”.  No clear plan was evident.

 

I have to wonder what would have happened had he been able to pick his own HC and how much input the HC’s had in our drafts. That could impact his legacy significantly.  

[Rob's House]

I didn't love or hate him. He seemed like a likeable guy who made some exciting moves, but never quite put it together. He was ok. Not great, not bad.

[Fadingpain]

Lousy GM.

Lacked raw intelligence to perform job well and had no vision for how to build a cohesive team with proactive moves.

 

Typical moves were passive, reactive, after the fact, fixes made on a temporary basis with no long term vision on display.

 

His handling of the QB position alone was grounds for dismissal.  He's lucky he survived as long as he did.

 

The move up in the draft to get Watkins was another colossal failure. 

 

He was also bad enough at his job that he was often forced to choose between what was good for him and his personal career vs. what was good for the team.

 

An example: EJ got way more of a shot than he ever should have, b/c Whaley's hide was on the line and admitting that EJ was a failure was synonymous with admitting Whaley was a failure; so EJ was promoted long after it was obvious he sucked.

 

You can't have a top executive in any organization watching his own back at the expense of the organization and expect good things to flow from that dynamic.

 

He will never work as a GM in the NFL again.

 

Other than these observations, I loved him! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

52 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

If he was even average as a GM another would've made him a offer. I wanted him fired after his 2nd season as GM.

[Dr. K]

Yes

[Happy]

I think in general Whaley was a good GM who was hamstrung by coaches who were not his choice, as well as meddling new owners.  Had he been able to choose his own coach, that he could work with, I think he would still be here and we very well may have broken the playoff drought by now.  As others said, Whaley excelled at finding some diamond in the rough FAs.

 

The Watkins pick will go down as a huge mistake, but this is known in retrospect.  I do applaud his aggressiveness in bringing in the best talent he could, as well as making some shrewd trades.

 

I do think Whaley's downfall was the QB position, which he passed on several in the draft following 2013 when he picked EJ Manuel.  I don't count EJ as his miss, necessarily, since his back was against the wall in 2013 thanks to Buddy Nix.  Cardale Jones was puzzling.  A 5th round flier on a QB with an incomplete college career was probably a little early.

 

Whaley was the best GM we had in many years when you look at the likes of Tom Donahoe, Marv Levy, Russ Brandon, and Buddy Nix.  In the end, I think Whaley can be credited with starting the process of bringing the Bills back to relevancy.

[Buddy Hix]

42 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Lousy GM.

Lacked raw intelligence to perform job well and had no vision for how to build a cohesive team with proactive moves.

 

Typical moves were passive, reactive, after the fact, fixes made on a temporary basis with no long term vision on display.

 

His handling of the QB position alone was grounds for dismissal.  He's lucky he survived as long as he did.

 

The move up in the draft to get Watkins was another colossal failure. 

 

He was also bad enough at his job that he was often forced to choose between what was good for him and his personal career vs. what was good for the team.

 

An example: EJ got way more of a shot than he ever should have, b/c Whaley's hide was on the line and admitting that EJ was a failure was synonymous with admitting Whaley was a failure; so EJ was promoted long after it was obvious he sucked.

 

You can't have a top executive in any organization watching his own back at the expense of the organization and expect good things to flow from that dynamic.

 

He will never work as a GM in the NFL again.

 

Other than these observations, I loved him! 

 

 

 

 

 

My initial reaction was the same...Whaley just isn't intelligent enough to develop a strategy or hire competent people beneath him to do it.

[CDogg20]

Sticking to my guns, yes he was a good gm, the EJ Manuel pick really gave him a bad reputation and ik a lot of people loved getting Sammy initially but hated the move when they saw the wr’s we could of had were producing more than Sammy. He wanted to win now and tried his damndest, he signed a good coach in Marrone. I wonder how much input he had in the Rex signing though. Overall I think he was a good gm and will flourish if ever given another opportunity. 

[GoBills808]

51 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

I didn't love or hate him. He seemed like a likeable guy who made some exciting moves, but never quite put it together. He was ok. Not great, not bad.

This. I'm very meh on the whole Whaley debate. I thought he had a great feel for LBs and a troubling fondness for EJ Manuel. I'd call him an above average drafter outside a few high profile blunders which very much color his time as GM, a good eye for talent in FA, but overall suffered like others have said from not being able to put all the pieces together. Whether his hands were tied as far as HC choices is spilt milk...you still gotta make it happen. 

[Sig1Hunter]

I have to ask.  Is the OP serious with this thread? Or,  is this a troll job? This question has been debated ad nauseam, with no definitive answer.  Some liked him, some didn't, and some were indifferent.  He is no longer the GM of the Buffalo Bills. End of story. 

 

He is available for a lunch date, however. 

[BuffaloRush]

8 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

I have to ask.  Is the OP serious with this thread? Or,  is this a troll job? This question has been debated ad nauseam, with no definitive answer.  Some liked him, some didn't, and some were indifferent.  He is no longer the GM of the Buffalo Bills. End of story. 

 

He is available for a lunch date, however. 

100% serious.  If you read the initial post, that's why I'm asking the question.  The second Doug's name is brought up on posts, people have a very strong reaction one way or another.  There's people associated with the Bills that we unanimously love or despise.  But Doug has to be one of the most polarizing personalities in Bills history

[Gugny]

He was a very good GM who was instrumental in building a top 3 defense that was DESTROYED when our meddling new owners decided to cherry pick Rex Ryan as their new, shiny toy.

 

His death knell was sticking with EJ Manuel too long.

 

MOST GMs make bad QB picks.  The good ones know when to admit they !@#$ed up, then move on.  He didn't do that and that's what will define him.

 

But I think he is one of the best GMs the Bills have ever had.  Second to Donahoe.  And no ... I'm not forgetting Polian.  !@#$ his lucky ass.

[BuffaloRush]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

He was a very good GM who was instrumental in building a top 3 defense that was DESTROYED when our meddling new owners decided to cherry pick Rex Ryan as their new, shiny toy.

 

His death knell was sticking with EJ Manuel too long.

 

MOST GMs make bad QB picks.  The good ones know when to admit they !@#$ed up, then move on.  He didn't do that and that's what will define him.

 

But I think he is one of the best GMs the Bills have ever had.  Second to Donahoe.  And no ... I'm not forgetting Polian.  !@#$ his lucky ass.

I think you are glossing over Doug's draft record - it leaves a lot to be desired

[Gugny]

Just now, BuffaloRush said:

I think you are glossing over Doug's draft record - it leaves a lot to be desired

 

No.  It doesn't.

 

His draft picks fit the coaching staff that he helped hire.

 

What happened to that coaching staff - and what they were replaced with - was not on Doug Whaley.  It was on the 3/4 dead previous owner and the !@#$ new owners who undermined him and hired the Ryan Circus.

[westerndecline]

He failed to get Dalton, Wilson, cousins, Carr ....

 

He failed

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said:

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

Very Un-Pittsburghian way of building a team.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said:

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

I don't think he was a bad GM. I just can't say he was a good GM. Maybe an "ok-ish" GM. 

 

In what I would select as his best 2 moves he got Hughes for Shepherd and McCoy for Kiko. Not sure how the deal with the Colts came about...but I remember reading how the deal with the Eagles fell in his lap.  Also, not sure if it was him or Rex but whoever it was that took a chance on Incognito...great move. Here was a guy that was as big of a controversial player as Colin Kapernick and it paid off. 

 

I think what I will remember most about him was him going rogue on Jackson. Not that it wasn't the right move...it was...just classless to treat a guy that we'll respected that way.

[Real McClappy]

Whaley will go down as the GM that was never actually was a GM due to rookie ownership play. He never got a fair shake to get his own coaching staff in place, he was a straight up puppet that could scout talent very well.

 

3 seasons = a 24-24 record under his watch, which is actually really not that bad.. I really feel with a half way decent HC and QB of his choosing we'd have great things right now. He was forced by Nix to draft a QB = FAILURE

 

Past is the past now. Let's see what Beane can do, fingers crossed.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Real McCoy

[Big C]

26 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

I think you are glossing over Doug's draft record - it leaves a lot to be desired

 

Insofar as it lacked a real home run selection. The EJ pick was the wrong one but the need was too great. Sammy never lived up to the hype. Put those together and you're not looking so hot, but the players he selected have mostly gone on to be productive players, if unspectacular. 

 

But the lack of unity between him, Marrone and Rex really never set the team up to succeed and that's why he had to go. We now have a coach and GM on the exact same page and we build from there.

[Bill_with_it]

Terrible GM.

[Bing Bong]

We had our best roster on paper (2015) since I've been watching the team. It's hard to know what was Nix or Whaley to get there, but Levy and Donahoe never really improved the roster.

5 hours ago, Big C said:

 

Insofar as it lacked a real home run selection. The EJ pick was the wrong one but the need was too great. Sammy never lived up to the hype. Put those together and you're not looking so hot, but the players he selected have mostly gone on to be productive players, if unspectacular. 

 

But the lack of unity between him, Marrone and Rex really never set the team up to succeed and that's why he had to go. We now have a coach and GM on the exact same page and we build from there.

I don't see why GMs and coaches shouldn't be a package deal. Though to play devil's advocate, you need to be prepared to handle when one half is worse for the team than the other.

[nucci]

I would have liked him to have been allowed to pick his own coach. That would have shown us a bit more if he was a successful GM or not. Rex Ryan was hired and destroyed a top defense he helped assemble

[Captain_Quint]

He had to see players perform at the NFL level before he could really evaluate them, which was good for signing free agents.

 

But a GM has to be able to evaluate college talent better than what he did. He also lacked long-term vision, which explains his troubles with the cap. 

 

Prickly personality with the coaches and media. Not privy to important decisions.

 

Just not a good GM.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

Doug Whaley is the Shaq Lawson of GM's.

[Dr. K]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

He was a very good GM who was instrumental in building a top 3 defense that was DESTROYED when our meddling new owners decided to cherry pick Rex Ryan as their new, shiny toy.

 

His death knell was sticking with EJ Manuel too long.

 

MOST GMs make bad QB picks.  The good ones know when to admit they !@#$ed up, then move on.  He didn't do that and that's what will define him.

 

But I think he is one of the best GMs the Bills have ever had.  Second to Donahoe.  And no ... I'm not forgetting Polian.  !@#$ his lucky ass.

This is my view, too. The true test of Whaley as a GM would have come if he had been able to choose his own coach. 

[BringBackOrton]

Doug Whaley was not instrumental in building a top defense.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

No.  It doesn't.

 

His draft picks fit the coaching staff that he helped hire.

 

What happened to that coaching staff - and what they were replaced with - was not on Doug Whaley.  It was on the 3/4 dead previous owner and the !@#$ new owners who undermined him and hired the Ryan Circus.

  

 

I take it you don't like the pegulas.

 

so he was successful but the owner(s) !@#$ed him over? 

[TSOL]

If you're looking for linebackers, Doug Whaley is your guy. I could forgive him for EJ, but Doug's crowning achievement, to me, will always be the Sammy Watkins trade. 

 

So no, he was not a good GM.

[bmur66]

Whaley seemed to have one hand tied behind his back when it came to head coach selection and who knows what else. Kinda like a Junior GM. He made some good free agency moves and some questionable low round draft choices. What I particularly didn't like was getting cute with the draft. Almost like trying to prove that the Bills were smarter than everyone else. Other than that who knows what really goes on behind the scene?

[ALF]

I wish Whaley could have got along with Saint Doug like trusting him that EJ was not a starter.

 

If Marrone stayed then no Ryan disaster and Schwartz would be here also.

[nucci]

31 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

  

 

I take it you don't like the pegulas.

 

so he was successful but the owner(s) !@#$ed him over? 

Chose to hire Ryan and I don't think Whaley wanted him. Not really related but I think the Pegula's are nice people but terrible owners

[simool]

Compared to Matt Millen or Marv Levy, yes. I would say he was a good GM.  He an above average to great pro personnel guy.  Don't let him spend the money or make the picks.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, jmc12290 said:

Doug Whaley is the Shaq Lawson of GM's.

The pornmeister was a good talent evaluator for the most part, he had other issues.

[BringBackOrton]

12 minutes ago, horned dogs said:

The pornmeister was a good talent evaluator for the most part, he had other issues.

Folks like to say this but it's not really true.  He sure as hell didn't evaluate the "talent" of Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus, Kujo etc etc etc very well at all.

 

Doug Whaley never drafted a player selected to a Pro Bowl.  He went 0 fer.  In 4 drafts.  That's terrible.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

39 minutes ago, ALF said:

I wish Whaley could have got along with Saint Doug like trusting him that EJ was not a starter.

 

If Marrone stayed then no Ryan disaster and Schwartz would be here also.

 

...the once supportive tandem of Whaley and Brandon turned on Saint Doug because of his militaristic style which is exactly what he proposed during interview process (culture change)......he wanted them present at EVERY staff meeting and they grew tired of it.....so when the Big Dawgs turn on you, he took the money and ran versus a constant up hill battle even though Pegula DID offer him a 4 year, $19.6 million dollar extension......

Edited December 2, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

32 minutes ago, nucci said:

Chose to hire Ryan and I don't think Whaley wanted him. Not really related but I think the Pegula's are nice people but terrible owners

 

 

likely so. I wondered why they wouldn't of brought in a successful football operations guy, like a tom coughlin?