The Ultimate Bills Debate - Was Doug Whaley A Good GM?

[ALF]

14 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Folks like to say this but it's not really true.  He sure as hell didn't evaluate the "talent" of Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus, Kujo etc etc etc very well at all.

 

Doug Whaley never drafted a player selected to a Pro Bowl.  He went 0 fer.  In 4 drafts.  That's terrible.

 

Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus  were picks Rex wanted I think

[Scott7975]

The bad outweighed the good with Whaley and that's why he isn't here.  He had no team vision, was terrible with cap management, could acquire talent but could not build a team.  Whaley was reckless with draft picks and a below average drafter.  Basically all the things one needs to be good at to be a GM, Whaley wasn't good at.

[YoloinOhio]

No. I do think he is a good evaluator of talent, particularly on the pro side of personnel where his background lies. Unfortunately, being an NFL GM demands a lot more than that, and he isn’t polished or savvy enough to represent an organization, and failed to build collaborative professional relationships with two straight head coaches. Even if those coaches weren’t blameless, it’s not a good sign. I think he’s best fit in an NFL personnel role behind the scenes. Not the head of a front office and organization. 

 

Thats just on the “duties as assigned” angle. His behavior outside work as a public figure representing an nfl organization, as I’ve heard about from trusted posters, puts a bow on my assessment. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by YoloinOhio

[Cripple Creek]

10 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

He was not a great GM. Whether or not he was a good GM is clouded by the dysfunctional organization he was a part of. The goals were always a moving target. Between ownership upheaval, HC changes, scheme changes etc. I don't think he stood a chance. A great GM would have overcome those obstacles and stuck to his guns. Whaley seemed to sway with the wind.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Some franchises are taking the approach that since there is no cap for spending in the front office they will add talent there. There are a lot of ex gm’s around that are good at specific things. As the op mentioned Whaley was a great pro scout. If he was allowed to focus on that a team could do well in FA with his information. There are other GM’s who were good college scouts for certain areas on the field. There are also good money men who know how to manage the cap. Get a good group like that working together and you got something. A team still needs one guy who brings them all together and works between the FO and the coaches. 

Atlanta has something like this right now. A few ex GM’s on the staff helping Dimitrof with talent and cap. Dimitrof works more as a liaison between everyone. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Whaley was horrid at evaluating QB talent through the draft or FA. That in itself makes him a below average GM. You add in Watkins, the Dareus signing, and the horrid drafting and you have a bad GM that will probably not find another job in the NFL.

 

Whaley you sucked.

[SoTier]

10 hours ago, Augie said:

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. No hate, no blind love here. He was a good scout in many ways, making some nice trades and picking up some FA jewels. But he failed to “build a team”.  No clear plan was evident.

 

I have to wonder what would have happened had he been able to pick his own HC and how much input the HC’s had in our drafts. That could impact his legacy significantly.  

 

I think this is a good assessment. 

 

I don't think Whaley was an independent GM who called all the personnel shots himself, so he couldn't build a team with his own vision.  No Bills GM has been independent since Donahoe was fired in 2005.  Whaley definitely didn't pick his own HCs, and he was definitely subservient to both Ryan and McDermott when it came to the draft.   My feeling is that the decisions on which players were to be kept or allowed to walk in FA were done by higher ups in the Bills organization based only on monetary considerations. 

 

I think that Beane is pretty much in the same situation as Whaley was ... the figurehead GM at the beck and call of the HC for the draft and of the FO higher ups for player retention ... or in the case of the Bills, player non-retention.

[Kirby Jackson]

I always thought that Whaley was an average GM. He was excellent at evaluating pro talent and in general he added skilled guys in the draft. His problems were that he didn’t do a good job identifying heart in those guys (Dareus, Watkins, Gilmore, Cyrus, etc...). His roster was better when he left than when he started even if some of the guys were scheme specific (or Ragland).

 

My 2 biggest issues are that he whiffed on QB in the draft (although he supposedly loved Watson this year) and the Dareus contract. The fact that the Bills didn’t have an out for another failed test is an unforgivable mistake IMO. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I think this is a good assessment. 

 

I don't think Whaley was an independent GM who called all the personnel shots himself, so he couldn't build a team with his own vision.  No Bills GM has been independent since Donahoe was fired in 2005.  Whaley definitely didn't pick his own HCs, and he was definitely subservient to both Ryan and McDermott when it came to the draft.   My feeling is that the decisions on which players were to be kept or allowed to walk in FA were done by higher ups in the Bills organization based only on monetary considerations. 

 

I think that Beane is pretty much in the same situation as Whaley was ... the figurehead GM at the beck and call of the HC for the draft and of the FO higher ups for player retention ... or in the case of the Bills, player non-retention.

 

...good point....we'll NEVER know the parameters of Whaley's "authority".......this time around, I'd bet Pegula handed Beane the keys unfettered.......look at Beane's staff....several former Pro Player Personnel Directors and VP's of Personnel....Pegula spared NO expense.......doubt he is a figurehead.....who the hell would want that position?......

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Doug Whaley was not instrumental in building a top defense.

 

I think Jim Schwartz would disagree.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I always thought that Whaley was an average GM. He was excellent at evaluating pro talent and in general he added skilled guys in the draft. His problems were that he didn’t do a good job identifying heart in those guys (Dareus, Watkins, Gilmore, Cyrus, etc...). His roster was better when he left than when he started even if some of the guys were scheme specific (or Ragland).

 

My 2 biggest issues are that he whiffed on QB in the draft (although he supposedly loved Watson this year) and the Dareus contract. The fact that the Bills didn’t have an out for another failed test is an unforgivable mistake IMO. 

 

I thing the Watkins trade up was so epically bad when you look at it now. Everyone on here was saying how deep this draft was at WR and that our Kalil Mack was a can't miss top 5 pick. When we traded up in that draft I was so excited, I was 99.9% sure that we were drafting Kalil Mack. Then we drafted Watkins in the deepest WR draft in the last 15 years and I broke another chair. The 1st broken chair was the music city miracle play just in case you wanted to know. Oh and Whaley sucks.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

 

I thing the Watkins trade up was so epically bad when you look at it now. Everyone on here was saying how deep this draft was at WR and that our Kalil Mack was a can't miss top 5 pick. When we traded up in that draft I was so excited, I was 99.9% sure that we were drafting Kalil Mack. Then we drafted Watkins in the deepest WR draft in the last 15 years and I broke another chair. The 1st broken chair was the music city miracle play just in case you wanted to know. Oh and Whaley sucks.

In hindsight the Watkins trade up didn’t work but he was the highest rated player on multiple teams board over multiple drafts. He was an ELITE prospect with no holes. He ended up battling injuries and I’m not sure he works very hard but there weren’t a bunch of guys that were interchangeable. Watkins and Mack were the 2 safest prospects in the draft. They had enormous ceilings and high floors. At the time a lot of teams would have made that same move. FWIW, I liked Mack a lot too. I would have been fine if the move was for him too.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think Jim Schwartz would disagree.

 

...EXACTLY......who else went out and got the players?......and MAJOR kudos to Schwartz for adapting his "system" to fit the personnel he had to work with (just like Dennison-COUGH).........

[Rico]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...EXACTLY......who else went out and got the players?......and MAJOR kudos to Schwartz for adapting his "system" to fit the personnel he had to work with (just like Dennison-COUGH).........

Who? Obviously Buddy Nix.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Rico said:

Who? Obviously Buddy Nix.

 

...by himself?......Whaley just carried the clipboard?.....wasn't Nix grooming him to take over?...............

[BadLandsMeanie]

OP: I'm surprised to see resigning Marcell in the plus column.

 

My take: Doug Whaley always distanced himself from anything that didn't go well, but claimed credit for things that did go well. Even things he didn't do, like trade for Hughes (was Nix) or trade down for an extra 1st round draft pick next year (was obviously McDermott). Otherwise the story is always he was a victim, his hands were tied, etc.

 

He was the General Manager and the team did not win, and had no stability. Those are things teh General Manager is accountable for. So we get the story that he wasn't actually the General Manager. It was somebody else's fault. He never had a chance, and so on. Give me a break please Mr. Whaley.

 

The mystery leaks that were nearly always beneficial to the executive side (Whaley, Russ Brandon) just as mysteriously stopped when he left.

 

He had problems talking, which is never a good sign. Sometimes he couldn't find his words. This is trouble for a man who is running a whole organization you need to be able to communicate clearly.

 

Other times he said things in a harmful way. After he left he said he regretted that he never found us a franchise quarterback. Tyrod Taylor mind you is still on the team and was our presumptive starter. This is a needless insult. All he had to say was he regretted we didn't have stability at the QB spot when he left. 

 

This last is just me, but toward the end, I just couldn't understand how he could possibly not see the issues with EJ. Nobody could be that blind. Then I realized that there is one explanation that fits. If he loved EJ, that fits perfect with how things went. I think he loves him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

His behavior outside work as a public figure representing an nfl organization, as I’ve heard about from trusted posters, puts a bow on my assessment. 

Tell me more!  I know nothing of this!

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...by himself?......Whaley just carried the clipboard?.....wasn't Nix grooming him to take over?...............

OP question wasn’t about being a good assistant GM. As a GM, he was a complete disaster.

[BadLandsMeanie]

25 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think Jim Schwartz would disagree.

Mario, Marcell, Jerry Hughes, Kyle Williams,  Stephon Gilmore , all on team before Doug Whaley.

[Foxx]

11 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

i stillthink he was a pretty good GM. as you mention he was good at finding talent in free agency. where he failed was in the first and second rounds as you aptly point out. i believe though that is a direct result of not having a franchise QB and wanting desperatly to fill that void. had we already had a franchise back there, he could have focused on drafting BPA and i have no doubt thatr he would have excelled given that circumstance.

[bmur66]

The thing about the Watkins trade up is that he knew it would probably cost him his job when they got a new owner. He and Russ Brandon said as much.