dave mcbride Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 That's not Wilson......that's the NFL. But it's duly noted that you guys think Ragnuts will be a backup to or be forced to beat out Brown and Brown for a job for the next 3-4 years. It's simple personnel math and as I stated from the start of last offseason.......you can fill front 7 positions with modest talent in Rex D. He undid himself in NY by over drafting front 7 defensive players........blame his GM's all you want but his fingerprints were all over their draft picks. I've never been a Rex hater.......he can be excellent like in 2009, 2010 and 2013.......or he can be awful like 2014-2015........but the GM has gotta' keep him at arms length on draft day. The injured Clemson player being picked first has Rex's hands all over it. I'm not saying it was a bad pick because Lawson may end up being good (let's be honest - we don't know), but I have to think that was all Rex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I am buying that from Badol. Greer was fantastic in a Saints uniform. He was a very important player on some good teams including a Super Bowl title. He may very well have been their best corner. Injuries derailed him later on but he was very good in NOLA. Nobody is disputing that. That it happened 2.5 GMs ago is really at issue here. That he couldn't come up with an example as it pertains to the current GM was the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I am buying that from Badol. Greer was fantastic in a Saints uniform. He was a very important player on some good teams including a Super Bowl title. He may very well have been their best corner. Injuries derailed him later on but he was very good in NOLA. he was easily the #1 for a good window in nola there was a short stretch where he was playing the position as well as just about anyone in the league. that dude was running with WRs and not wasting a single misplaced step. he was playing his technique just about perfect for a flash there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Nobody is disputing that. That it happened 2.5 GMs ago is really at issue here. That he couldn't come up with an example as it pertains to the current GM was the point. To be fair, the listed GM when Greer left was a fella by the name of Russ Brandon. Word has it that he's still here, along with Buddy's protege. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2008.htm Edited October 25, 2016 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 To be fair, the listed GM when Greer left was a fella by the name of Russ Brandon. Word has it that he's still here, along with Buddy's protege. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2008.htm hence the half Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billykaykay Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Which is what Chris Hogan got, who is half the WR that Woods is. Not knocking Woods, but he is very average. How many times have you seen him go deep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 to be entirely honest, i wasn't sure we even had a GM when that went down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 hence the half LOL. More seriously, there HAS been some real continuity in this organization since Brandon took over. Brandon selected Nix, and Nix selected Whaley. There has been upheaval in the coaching staff, but not so much in the front office ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 That's not Wilson......that's the NFL. But it's duly noted that you guys think Ragnuts will be a backup to or be forced to beat out Brown and Brown for a job for the next 3-4 years. It's simple personnel math and as I stated from the start of last offseason.......you can fill front 7 positions with modest talent in Rex D. He undid himself in NY by over drafting front 7 defensive players........blame his GM's all you want but his fingerprints were all over their draft picks. I've never been a Rex hater.......he can be excellent like in 2009, 2010 and 2013.......or he can be awful like 2014-2015........but the GM has gotta' keep him at arms length on draft day. Stick to one argument and don't contradict yourself. If your theory is correct, than the Bills are planning it perfectly with Ragland ready to step in for Preston when he's ready to hit free agency, especially since you don't believe that the position merits premium pay. It is impressive that you play on both sides of the fence in arguing that the position is devalued in Rex's D, but that the Bills blew it by not offering the moon for David Harris (even though he was never available) LOL. More seriously, there HAS been some real continuity in this organization since Brandon took over. Brandon selected Nix, and Nix selected Whaley. There has been upheaval in the coaching staff, but not so much in the front office ... The other part that shouldn't be ignored is Bills are no longer managed on a cash to cap basis, which was a huge consideration in letting Greer walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Not knocking Woods, but he is very average. How many times have you seen him go deep? Agreed. I'm not convinced Woods is much better than Hogan. They're both decent players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Nobody is disputing that. That it happened 2.5 GMs ago is really at issue here. That he couldn't come up with an example as it pertains to the current GM was the point. That is more than fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 are we ever actually discussing cutting him after April? for all intents and purposes for a discussion in this thread, his contract moving forward isnt guaranteed. in that we would be paying 15m a year for a #2 and #3 i dont. otherwise, sure, who wouldnt like that talent TBDism foul here. This should read "intensive purposes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Stick to one argument and don't contradict yourself. If your theory is correct, than the Bills are planning it perfectly with Ragland ready to step in for Preston when he's ready to hit free agency, especially since you don't believe that the position merits premium pay. It is impressive that you play on both sides of the fence in arguing that the position is devalued in Rex's D, but that the Bills blew it by not offering the moon for David Harris (even though he was never available) The other part that shouldn't be ignored is Bills are no longer managed on a cash to cap basis, which was a huge consideration in letting Greer walk. Badol's position has been that top picks are worth more than the positions the Bills have used them to fill, if I understand him correctly. You'd rather have a good skill position player in round 2 and pay Harris/Zach Brown, than draft Ragland and have the Harris/Zach Brown money to spend on bad skill player FA's. I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Agreed. I'm not convinced Woods is much better than Hogan. They're both decent players. I am surprised you think that. I think Woods is a better blocker and route runner than Hogan. He is a borderline #2/very good #3. But Hogan IMHO is one below him on each. And I liked Hogan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Still stealing money, Marcel? Toot Toot goes the whistle on the SS Puffalot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I am surprised you think that. I think Woods is a better blocker and route runner than Hogan. He is a borderline #2/very good #3. But Hogan IMHO is one below him on each. And I liked Hogan... Call me crazy, but I don't really put a ton of stock in WR blocking. Yeah, it's nice, but it's not why they're on the field. I view it as a tertiary skill, and in any event Hogan has been blocking downfield well in NE himself. Both are good route runners and both are size-challenged. Hogan seems to be a better deep threat and appears to be a little quicker (although Woods is likely faster). Woods has been playing well this season, but so has Hogan. Hogan is on pace for only 33 catches, but he's on a loaded team (Gronk, Bennett, White, Amendola, Edelman) in which the QB spreads it around. The Bills would be better off if they had both of them instead of just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Badol's position has been that top picks are worth more than the positions the Bills have used them to fill, if I understand him correctly. You'd rather have a good skill position player in round 2 and pay Harris/Zach Brown, than draft Ragland and have the Harris/Zach Brown money to spend on bad skill player FA's. I tend to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Badol's position has been that top picks are worth more than the positions the Bills have used them to fill, if I understand him correctly. You'd rather have a good skill position player in round 2 and pay Harris/Zach Brown, than draft Ragland and have the Harris/Zach Brown money to spend on bad skill player FA's. I tend to agree. My position on this is we had absolutely no idea that Lorax and Z. Brown were going to play as well as they have......a couple of thoughts here - What if Lorax and Z. Brown end up playing exactly as their contracts would indicate? Backup fill in guys and not guys putting up top of the league numbers? Would those pick have made sense? To me they would? - We still dont know just how good those picks are even gonna be yet......what if they come in next year and are really good players? Injuries are what are the driving force on all of this....What would this O be like if Sammy Watkins wasnt sidelined? They are allready putting up a lot of points in a running game orientated offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 They probably over-fixed their defense at the expense of roster building. Drafting for need tends to keep you always playing from behind. Now they will probably end up just letting Zach and/or Preston Brown go in FA over the next two seasons when they would have made reasonably priced re-signs while they got value at other positions from those 3 picks they utilitzed on Ragnuts. What you need to do as an organization is find those $12M-$20M per year players in the first couple rounds so you don't have to fork out $100M deals to another teams warty star player in FA to get one. ^ This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 My position on this is we had absolutely no idea that Lorax and Z. Brown were going to play as well as they have......a couple of thoughts here - What if Lorax and Z. Brown end up playing exactly as their contracts would indicate? Backup fill in guys and not guys putting up top of the league numbers? Would those pick have made sense? To me they would? - We still dont know just how good those picks are even gonna be yet......what if they come in next year and are really good players? Injuries are what are the driving force on all of this....What would this O be like if Sammy Watkins wasnt sidelined? They are allready putting up a lot of points in a running game orientated offense. to your first question, Ragland/Shaq still would've gotten hurt so it wouldn't matter. They'd still be playing. To your second, what if Ragland and Shaq are never as good or are just equal with LorAx and the Browns? You can play the what if game til the cows come home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 to your first question, Ragland/Shaq still would've gotten hurt so it wouldn't matter. They'd still be playing. To your second, what if Ragland and Shaq are never as good or are just equal with LorAx and the Browns? You can play the what if game til the cows come home. Exactly.....that is why the answer is "i dont know yet" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Injuries are always bad, but having them all at the same position is what makes it such a downer. Last year we ran out of runners, this year we can't catch a break at WR. UGH! Edited October 25, 2016 by Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 They knew about Sammys injury months ago. They took a risk and it's starting to blow up in their face. Scott, I am not disagreeing with that.....I really thought they should have signed Kerley or another FA in the offseason........truth be told I did not expect Listenbee to be out like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Stick to one argument and don't contradict yourself. If your theory is correct, than the Bills are planning it perfectly with Ragland ready to step in for Preston when he's ready to hit free agency, especially since you don't believe that the position merits premium pay. It is impressive that you play on both sides of the fence in arguing that the position is devalued in Rex's D, but that the Bills blew it by not offering the moon for David Harris (even though he was never available) The other part that shouldn't be ignored is Bills are no longer managed on a cash to cap basis, which was a huge consideration in letting Greer walk. See jmc.........my position has been clear on the subject. As for Harris........I wasn't a proponent of signing him in FA.........my point was that they blamed the defensive issues on communication and if Harris was the key to not blowing what should have been a playoff season in 2015.....then they should have paid him ahead of warty stars like Harvin, Hammy McCoy or Charles Clay. Horse......then cart. I never thought Harris was actually needed..........if it wasn't obvious then it is much clearer now that they simply did a sh*t job of preparing the D in the 8 months leading up to the 2015 season.........but Preston Brown was scapegoated for it and Harris WAS available so they don't really have a leg to stand on IMO as far as that excuse is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toledo Bill Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Of course not. Why bring someone in who could help? *face on desk* All this talk about salary cap, will he fit, etc.? Don't you realize it will depend on where he fits with Russ's Marketing Plan?? Although he has nothing to do with football decisions,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 All this talk about salary cap, will he fit, etc.? Don't you realize it will depend on where he fits with Russ's Marketing Plan?? Although he has nothing to do with football decisions,,,Here come the hot takes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 My position on this is we had absolutely no idea that Lorax and Z. Brown were going to play as well as they have......a couple of thoughts here - What if Lorax and Z. Brown end up playing exactly as their contracts would indicate? Backup fill in guys and not guys putting up top of the league numbers? Would those pick have made sense? To me they would? - We still dont know just how good those picks are even gonna be yet......what if they come in next year and are really good players? Injuries are what are the driving force on all of this....What would this O be like if Sammy Watkins wasnt sidelined? They are allready putting up a lot of points in a running game orientated offense. Tough to make that case to Badol, who very clearly went over the production Rex has gotten out of journeymen defenders long before the season started. He was on point 100% with that take and the draft picks also fall in line with what was being said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Almost seems perfect. A guy who can only run a go route for a qb that can only really throw go routes. Dude has done nothing in SF so his trade value should be very low. Watch the Pats will get him for a box of VCR tapes (and he would be that deep threat they need). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 They probably over-fixed their defense at the expense of roster building. Drafting for need tends to keep you always playing from behind. Now they will probably end up just letting Zach and/or Preston Brown go in FA over the next two seasons when they would have made reasonably priced re-signs while they got value at other positions from those 3 picks they utilitzed on Ragnuts. What you need to do as an organization is find those $12M-$20M per year players in the first couple rounds so you don't have to fork out $100M deals to another teams warty star player in FA to get one. I think their defensive picks were spot on. Alexander is having a great season but he is undersized, playing on ST too and getting up there in years. Having a bigger guy like Lawson to rotate in with him for a couple of years will be really useful. Also, while Zack Brown has been playing great I've been less impressed with Preston Brown and if Ragland can provide a more physical presence then I think he is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Is this still the Torrey Smith thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 @tsteegenfl Few rumblings.. Torrey Smith to #Eagles is smoke. #Eagles have legit interest in Alshon Jeffery, per @KevinMatuszak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 @tsteegenfl Few rumblings.. Torrey Smith to #Eagles is smoke. #Eagles have legit interest in Alshon Jeffery, per @KevinMatuszak Now that is a trade I would make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Get him!!!! He already has more TD's in Buffalo than Sammy this year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) Get him!!!! He already has more TD's in Buffalo than Sammy this year! Edited October 26, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 See jmc.........my position has been clear on the subject. As for Harris........I wasn't a proponent of signing him in FA.........my point was that they blamed the defensive issues on communication and if Harris was the key to not blowing what should have been a playoff season in 2015.....then they should have paid him ahead of warty stars like Harvin, Hammy McCoy or Charles Clay. Horse......then cart. I never thought Harris was actually needed..........if it wasn't obvious then it is much clearer now that they simply did a sh*t job of preparing the D in the 8 months leading up to the 2015 season.........but Preston Brown was scapegoated for it and Harris WAS available so they don't really have a leg to stand on IMO as far as that excuse is concerned. Your position wavers, unless I'm confusing you with Badolbeelz who would always complain when Ralph Wilson's Bills created self-imposed holes by letting free agents leave. Or that you use a lot of hindsight and fact twisting to fit the narrative that you like to spin or argue hypothetical scenarios that didn't exist, such as claiming that David Harris was available for the Bills to sign. He wasn't. Or arguing that Bills blew it by not trading for Brandon Marshall, and slamming the team for trading for Cassell, while totally ignoring the reality that the only reason Bills traded for Cassell was because McCown turned them down the week before, and they had no other option to bring in veteran QBs. BTW, how good would this defense be this year with your pet pick, Myles Jack. Notice that you haven't been banging his drum lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 yes they are desperate. They need a starting caliber WR to stay alive this year and they need one after this year too. I guess they should just throw their hands in the air and give up. I really don't care about the money, it's not that much for a starting WR. They aren't signing a decent FA at this position because anyone who has a choice in the matter isn't coming here. Plus that doesn't help them this season. Why anyone who has a choice isn't coming yolo? Curious... the offense is too run oriented? Almost seems perfect. A guy who can only run a go route for a qb that can only really throw go routes. Dude has done nothing in SF so his trade value should be very low. Watch the Pats will get him for a box of VCR tapes (and he would be that deep threat they need). He has a nice deep crosser to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Your position wavers, unless I'm confusing you with Badolbeelz who would always complain when Ralph Wilson's Bills created self-imposed holes by letting free agents leave. Or that you use a lot of hindsight and fact twisting to fit the narrative that you like to spin or argue hypothetical scenarios that didn't exist, such as claiming that David Harris was available for the Bills to sign. He wasn't. Or arguing that Bills blew it by not trading for Brandon Marshall, and slamming the team for trading for Cassell, while totally ignoring the reality that the only reason Bills traded for Cassell was because McCown turned them down the week before, and they had no other option to bring in veteran QBs. BTW, how good would this defense be this year with your pet pick, Myles Jack. Notice that you haven't been banging his drum lately. Accurate on self-imposed holes......how is that incorrect? David Harris was a free agent. Bills were in on the bidding. It got pricey and they got out. They did blow it by not trading for Brandon Marshall.......that was exactly what they needed. Matt Cassell was a hopelessly low target that couldn't even pass the team physical. The "no other option" argument is just an excuse.....there are always other options when the target is THAT low. And sure enough Tyrod easily beat him out. That trade cost them the pick they needed to outbid the Jets for Marshall, who they were also in on. Remember that when Rex took over the top stated needs per him were a big WR and a NT..........they then proceeded to go impulse shopping. The ceiling on Myles Jack is much higher than that of Shaq or Ragnuts. How would he be doing in Buffalo? How do you think Lorax or Zach Brown would be doing in Jacksonville? Jack is an extremely versatile talent.........and Jacksonville is an enormously underachieving team which indicates poor coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Now that is a trade I would make... Much more expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 David Harris never reached free agency; he was re-signed several days before free agency began. Not sure how the Bills were in on the bidding for a player that was never available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Accurate on self-imposed holes......how is that incorrect? David Harris was a free agent. Bills were in on the bidding. It got pricey and they got out. They did blow it by not trading for Brandon Marshall.......that was exactly what they needed. Matt Cassell was a hopelessly low target that couldn't even pass the team physical. The "no other option" argument is just an excuse.....there are always other options when the target is THAT low. And sure enough Tyrod easily beat him out. That trade cost them the pick they needed to outbid the Jets for Marshall, who they were also in on. Remember that when Rex took over the top stated needs per him were a big WR and a NT..........they then proceeded to go impulse shopping. The ceiling on Myles Jack is much higher than that of Shaq or Ragnuts. How would he be doing in Buffalo? How do you think Lorax or Zach Brown would be doing in Jacksonville? Jack is an extremely versatile talent.........and Jacksonville is an enormously underachieving team which indicates poor coaching. This is precisely what I'm talking about. you completely invent timelines to suit your narrative. There was never a bidding war for David Harris because the Jets signed him before he could be FA. But that hasn't stopped you from railing about it for over a year. Same with the Marshall trade. Of course Bills would have liked to have him, but the veteran QB was a priority, if you recall. You can't slam the team for things outside their control, like McCown deciding to go to Cleveland. There was no other FA QB available, unless you wanted to bring back Jordan Palmer. Why do you think Cowboys gave up a fifth for Cassell? Not everyrthing works in a neat way that frames your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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