Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 My thoughts from the the Tim Graham comments: - Rogue. An odd word to choice to use there, was that Grahams interpretation of the situation after his two sources told him what happened or was that the word the two sources used? I seriously doubt Whaley went "rogue", didn't inform Ryan, didn't inform the Pegula's or Russ Brandon, just called Fred into his office and told him he was cut. I think either the two sources used that word to describe the situation not really understanding it's definition or Graham intentionally used that word to sensationalize the situation. - The comment about the sponsorship is ridiculous. The "it's embarrassing" is Grahams opinion of the situation. As I work in marketing there is nothing I see "embarrassing" about the situation for the Bills or for M&T bank, if that's who he's referring too. As far as the Bucky article, a lot of it reads very complimentary of his time in Buffalo except for Fred taking a shot at Whaley. I don't get the comment that "Whaley was never honest with me." In what sense? Seems more of an emotional response than a fact. Here's a comment from Thurman when he was cut: "Those guys and the organization as a whole, every time I get the ball, I'm going to try to stick it and let them know I didn't forget what happened in the off-season and the past couple of years" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What did he want to hear, exactly? Fred seems like a smart guy. I'm sure he can figure this out without Whaley telling him there's no room for an 34-year-old RB/locker room cheerleader when other, more important, players need to be extended. Common man. You mean more important players like Boobie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I hope Fred pulls a McCoy and sits down with Rodak to explain how Whaley cuts all the slow black players first. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 My thoughts from the the Tim Graham comments: - Rogue. An odd word to choice to use there, was that Grahams interpretation of the situation after his two sources told him what happened or was that the word the two sources used? I seriously doubt Whaley went "rogue", didn't inform Ryan, didn't inform the Pegula's or Russ Brandon, just called Fred into his office and told him he was cut. I think either the two sources used that word to describe the situation not really understanding it's definition or Graham intentionally used that word to sensationalize the situation. - The comment about the sponsorship is ridiculous. The "it's embarrassing" is Grahams opinion of the situation. As I work in marketing there is nothing I see "embarrassing" about the situation for the Bills or for M&T bank, if that's who he's referring too. As far as the Bucky article, a lot of it reads very complimentary of his time in Buffalo except for Fred taking a shot at Whaley. I don't get the comment that "Whaley was never honest with me." In what sense? Seems more of an emotional response than a fact. Here's a comment from Thurman when he was cut: "Those guys and the organization as a whole, every time I get the ball, I'm going to try to stick it and let them know I didn't forget what happened in the off-season and the past couple of years" This is the only thing that I don't get either. What would he have done in the past that would be dishonest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What did he want to hear, exactly? Fred seems like a smart guy. I'm sure he can figure this out without Whaley telling him there's no room for an 34-year-old RB/locker room cheerleader when other, more important, players need to be extended. Common man. yeah. let it go. 34 RB? nah. everyone got what they wanted out of that relationship. move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I'm not going to do a huge "I told you so", but I told you all so. Whaley is an arrogant infant who deserves every morsel of the hate he surely will receive for this. I think that was a double negativo. You know what? I'm really happy this morning. We have confirmation that the GM is not afraid to make difficult decisions to improve the overall football team, and better yet, confirmation that marketing and sales will absolutely not enter into that equation. Timmah's tweet is another example of him absolutely despising Buffalo fans and taking any opportunity he gets to stir the pot. There is NO way Whaley made this decision without Pegula and Rex input. No way -- not after the March debacle. I like the poster (I'm sorry, I forget who said it) who inferred that this is a football decision in which Whaley has agreed to accept the role as bad cop so that Rex can be good cop. It makes complete sense. The Pegulas can comfortably say that they rely upon Whaley and Rex to do what's best for the football team and while Fred was a great Bill, they aren't going to let emotion override their football people. On to Indianapolis. Edited September 2, 2015 by eball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 This is the only thing that I don't get either. What would he have done in the past that would be dishonest? To me it comes off as more of an emotional comment than a factual one. Whaley signed off on Freds extension last July, when there wasn't an owner to push him to do that. And if it was Russ Brandon pushing him to do it, that would open up a whole other issue of Brandon interfering with football decisions. Whaley didn't have to do that, they could have let Freds contract just run out. I think it's possible Whaley has told Fred, more than a couple times, he wants to see him retire a Bill or that he always wants him to be a Bill. As I'm sure many people inside the organization have told Fred that. Now, Whaley cuts Fred and all of a sudden Whaley wasn't being honest the entire time he was there because he told Fred he always wanted him to be a Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 @WayneCubed -- it's all in the emphasis. Whaley: "Fred, we want you to retire as a Bill." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I guess I am not understanding the "went rogue" part... Rex has input, but Whaley makes final call on the 53. pegula said ok. I don't see the issue. Some head coaches have control over the 53, Rex is not one of them. indeed, I doubt he just walks into the room and tells the coaches who they should keep and who should be cut. Has a say? Yes. Absolute power? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 To me it comes off as more of an emotional comment than a factual one. Whaley signed off on Freds extension last July, when there wasn't an owner to push him to do that. And if it was Russ Brandon pushing him to do it, that would open up a whole other issue of Brandon interfering with football decisions. Whaley didn't have to do that, they could have let Freds contract just run out. I think it's possible Whaley has told Fred, more than a couple times, he wants to see him retire a Bill or that he always wants him to be a Bill. As I'm sure many people inside the organization have told Fred that. Now, Whaley cuts Fred and all of a sudden Whaley wasn't being honest the entire time he was there because he told Fred he always wanted him to be a Bill. Good points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreezeMafia Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What did he want to hear, exactly? Fred seems like a smart guy. I'm sure he can figure this out without Whaley telling him there's no room for an 34-year-old RB/locker room cheerleader when other, more important, players need to be extended. Common man. Freddie one of my all time favorites, but I agree totally. It was the end of the line. Doesn't mean its the end regarding some other capacity for Freddie with the Bills in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 @WayneCubed -- it's all in the emphasis. Whaley: "Fred, we want you to retire as a Bill." Completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 @WayneCubed -- it's all in the emphasis. Whaley: "Fred, we want you to retire as a Bill." Does that mean Kyle Williams is on the clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Actually I did. I would simply say "no." As for protocol, sales was not to impinge on programming. Just like sales in the Bills case is not to impinge on personnel decisions. Beyond that I don't get your point. That sales people would be unhappy? Okay, they're unhappy. What did you want Doug Whaley to do about it? Apparently drugs job is to keep everyone happy at all times. Forget that making tough choices that he believes will lead to wins is the best way to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 i don't get the love for whaley here. is he a top 10 gm? is he as good at his trade as jackson is it his? i don't believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 With so many injuries to cover , cutting down to 53 will be very difficult . Gay might have to be kept with Carpenter not recovered yet. I think that was one reason they needed to let Fred go at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Does that mean Kyle Williams is on the clock? I think we'd be crazy to think he has unlimited time - so yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I think we'd be crazy to think he has unlimited time - so yes. Wouldn't be surprised if Corbin Bryant is his replacement, younger and cheaper at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 This is the only thing that I don't get either. What would he have done in the past that would be dishonest? Myself and RTDB both speculate wildly that it could be as simple as "we want you to retire a bill" and then deciding to make the move instead of offering Freddy an 8 year extension at vet minimum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Does that mean Kyle Williams is on the clock?i don't know. Whaley was very public in his comments about Kyle (and Mario) retiring there. Nothing is written in stone, but the difference is that Kyle is a multi year pro bowler and considered an elite player at his position. As much as we love Fred and know what he could do, he was never at that level at his position. If/when Kyle isn't a starter anymore or playing at a high level this issue will arise. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Wouldn't be surprised if Corbin Bryant is his replacement, younger and cheaper at this point. I've pointed to next offseason, but with his restructure/extension I think he sees 2 of the 3 years and then a move is made at 34 saving 8m in cap space. He'd have to be playing GREAT to survive the contract and it'd put a hurt on us elsewhere.i suspect Kyles legs will agree with this move taking place. Edited September 2, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 i don't know. Whaley was very public in his comments about Kyle (and Mario) retiring there. Nothing is written in stone, but the difference is that Kyle is a multi year pro bowler and considered an elite player at his position. As much as we love Fred and know what he could do, he was never at that level at his position. If/when Kyle isn't a starter anymore or playing at a high level this issue will arise. Fred reached potentially elite status during the first 1/2 of 2011...then got hurt and has never approached that level of play again while suffering repeated lower body injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsmovinup Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) WGR has been adamant since Rex got hired that rex calls the shots. Now the National Enquirer, I mean Buffalo News, claims Whaley went rogue. What's next? Terry and Kim are personal friends with Zenu the interplanetary leader of Scientology and they're gonna hire him to secretly call plays on game day? Edited September 2, 2015 by Billsmovinup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 To me it comes off as more of an emotional comment than a factual one. Whaley signed off on Freds extension last July, when there wasn't an owner to push him to do that. And if it was Russ Brandon pushing him to do it, that would open up a whole other issue of Brandon interfering with football decisions. Whaley didn't have to do that, they could have let Freds contract just run out. I think it's possible Whaley has told Fred, more than a couple times, he wants to see him retire a Bill or that he always wants him to be a Bill. As I'm sure many people inside the organization have told Fred that. Now, Whaley cuts Fred and all of a sudden Whaley wasn't being honest the entire time he was there because he told Fred he always wanted him to be a Bill. I agree with everything you said in this and the post before. One thing that hasn't been discussed is the one reference to Fred's "3year plan" to be the oldest RB to ever carry a ball in the league. Before this I think most people would have considered the most reasonable scenario if the Bills did keep him would be one more year then retire a Bill. Three more years would have been ludicrous. It seems to me there became a disconnect on when retire as a Bill would actually occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 That is just a god-awful analogy. It's a fine analogy. Not all analogies are meant to mirror the entire situation, some are to shed light on one specific, often nuanced, aspect of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 WGR has been adamant since Rex got hired that rex calls the shots. Now the National Enquirer, I mean Buffalo News, claims Whaley went rogue. What's next? Terry and Kim are personal friends with Zenu the interplanetary leader of Scientology and they're gonna hire him to secretly call plays on game day? It'd still be an upgrade on Nate Hackett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I've pointed to next offseason, but with his restructure/extension I think he sees 2 of the 3 years and then a move is made at 34 saving 8m in cap space. He'd have to be playing GREAT to survive the contract and it'd put a hurt on us elsewhere.i suspect Kyles legs will agree with this move taking place. I think this year will determine a lot as to how long they want to keep Kyle. If Bryant continues to play better and/or Kyle looks like he's slowed down or has an injury plagued season he might only last this season. It wouldn't surprise me and I'm sure would piss a lot of fans off. If he plays well and is healthy, I could see him playing 2 more year.s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I was wondering how long it would take for the anti Fred backlash would start. Not long I guess. What a ruthless bunch of "fans' Get ready Kyle, they're coming for you next...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I think this year will determine a lot as to how long they want to keep Kyle. If Bryant continues to play better and/or Kyle looks like he's slowed down or has an injury plagued season he might only last this season. It wouldn't surprise me and I'm sure would piss a lot of fans off. If he plays well and is healthy, I could see him playing 2 more year.s The new deal created a little extra dead money next year- still possible but short of disaster it seems unlikely when looking at some of the structural clues. Edited September 2, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 The new deal created a little extra dead money next year- still possible but short of disaster it seems unlikely when looking at some of the structural clues. According to OverTheCap, if he's designated a pre-June cut it's $3m in dead money if it's post it's $1.5m, which is the same as it would be cutting him in 2017. It would also take $6.5m off the cap. I suppose they would still bring him to camp, a lot like the Fred situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Juicy... Oh, and screw Doug Whaley if this is true. I don't get this. Why screw Doug Whaley if this is true? What did everybody expect. Jackson was in all likelyhood going to be the third back in this offense. There was probably games when he was not even going to dress. Whaley did his job. Sometimes GMs need to make tough decisions. All part of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'm not going to do a huge "I told you so", but I told you all so. Whaley is an arrogant infant who deserves every morsel of the hate he surely will receive for this. project much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 According to OverTheCap, if he's designated a pre-June cut it's $3m in dead money if it's post it's $1.5m, which is the same as it would be cutting him in 2017. It would also take $6.5m off the cap. I suppose they would still bring him to camp, a lot like the Fred situation. The post June 1 would split the hit over 2 years, but is still 3m in dead money. It's not impossible by any means, just seems silly to do what they did contractually if that's the ideal plan in their heads. If things go bad the flexibility is there to make it happen though (again, just my opinion reading clues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Guess I'm trying to figure out why everyone seems ot think Rex wanted to keep Fred. Is it because of somthing Tim Graham stated as "fact"? The only thing I can figure is becasue early in training camp Rex called our Brown for fumbling too much, therefore we jump to conclusion, Rex doesn't like Brown, therefore Rex loves fred and would have rather cut Brown and kept Fred. That comment by Rex was also made before Brown had a very strong fumblre free game agaisnt think it was Cleveland. I highly doubt the move of dumping Fred was made without Rex also agreeing with it, infact likely advocating for it. Wouldn't shock me to see it came down to will Fred be happy not dressing most weeks as the #4 back, probably not, so lets move on. But Whaley is being professional about it and letting himself be the fall guy here even if he had nothing to do with it. Normally this was the role Brandon took from the fans, guess we've moved on now. Maybe it was his idea, maybe not but this idea that Whaley got mad at Rex for naming Tailor the started so he then went and cut Freddy is nothing but laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) A few thoughts on the topic: - 1st off GG is right, it is bad business angering the sponsors. I don't think that people fully grasp the math but if they spend $1.5M a year that is the equivalent of 2,307 $650 season tickets (of which the home team gets 60%). If you can imagine ownership will not be happy to see them walk especially if they replace them with someone spending half. Just an example and I don't know the numbers but that is headache that will be dealt with directly by Russ and the Pegulas. -Second, Whaley went out on a limb here if it is true that he didn't have the Pegula's blessing. He just put himself out there in a position to be the fall guy. You released a beloved franchise icon for a guy that will, in all likelihood be your 4th RB (Brown) on the last year of his deal. The only way that this can work out is if Brown's play is noticeably superior to Freddy because the ancillary benefits of having Fred outweigh that of Brown. Was it worth risking your job to keep Bryce over Freddy? This decision isn't looked upon favorably by the players or the fans. The media is all over the story and it is making life difficult for the owners (backlash). If things don't go well the fingers will point in Whaley's direction regardless of the limited contributions of Fred or Bryce. If they win it won't matter but was it worth the risk? Edited September 2, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
negativo Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) While there is great humor to be had reading the desperation of Team Whaley flood the TBD board in a sad, failed effort to salvage his image, it really does demonstrate how petty and small the man is. Smear Fred as a bitter, washed up liar? Yeah, Buffalo fans really believe Waley is the higher character guy, and think Bryce Brown is the better player. Smear TBN as a tabloid reporting slanderous lies with fake sources as part of some tinfoil hat conspiracy against Whaley? Good luck with that one. Blast Buffalo fans as "ungrateful" for "all Whaley has done", and getting bent for him "just doing his job"? Yeah, multiple reports of Whaley lying and going rogue must all be false. Fans are just idiots. Mock fans for circulating a pro-Freddy petition with upwards of 20k signatures? Yeah, posts like that doesn't look fishy or anything. Smear the Pegulas for circulating false rumors that Whaley's reckless, personal decision to cut Freddy without communicating to them first caused embrassment and possible financial loss from one of the biggest advertisors? Yeah, Bills fans in real life run with that opinion. Team Whaley, you can bombard the boards with as many of your lackeys as you like but it won't move the dial a single notch. We know what the score is, and demonizing everyone but you will onlly backfire. Then again, you should be used to seeing impulsive maneuvers to boost your profile backfire in your face. Try being accountable for a change, bub. The smarmy, disengenuous act is wearing thin. Edited September 2, 2015 by negativo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Bills just signed yet another former Jet. So we're to believe that Rex has all this say in terms of signing these guys yet had no say in cutting Freddie? I'm not buying it. Whaley is taking the heat so Rex can be the "players coach" in the locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If the Bills don't win, if Bryce Brown sucks, or McCoy gets hurt, this will look like a stupid decision. Having the authority to make a decision means you get credit for winning, and the blame for losing Why does everyone assumed brown makes the team. Could keep 3 Dixon McCoy Williams. Or maybe they like Hill or Wood better. Brown is still up in the air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Other than for what happened to her husband, Mrs. Lincoln enjoyed what was the greatest night out ever experienced by a First Lady... WHAT?!? Marrying her sweetheart? Giving birth? Her husband a successful lawyer and orator? Her husband winning the Presidency of the U.S.? Her husband overseeing victory in the Civil War? Being 1st Lady -but her greatest night ever was watching a play??? Yeeeesh! You have ruined any credence of content you'll ever add here. Anyway, Fred is gone. Of course bosses 'lie' and say nice things when you get laid off. That's how it goes. PS: T-Graham is a rogue reporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 This door was opened when Fred was cut. Whaley had to realize there are both members in the organization and in the media who would take anti-Whaley stances here cutting a fan favorite. But why should he care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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