Manuel vs. Kolb battle staged?

[Wazzu Bill]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along: To give Manuel a fast track training that he could not have obtained if he was named the starter 2 months ago. Rookie QBs face a whole new level of pressure going into the NFL, and Marrone is giving him doses of pressure to prepare. First, the training camp battle - this will give Manuel something to play for more than just "practice" - give him the mentality he's actually fighting for something. Same goes for preseason...if he's fighting for the job, it is a more similar mindset to a regular season game than just a "scrimmage" game. Manuel is under immense pressure right now instead of naming him the starter so he can breeze through camp and preseason without a worry, then get smashed in his debut.

 

Other people have pointed this out: If we let Kolb start all year, and he fails, then it leads to 2014 being ANOTHER rebuilding year with Manuel's first starting season. Coach knows we need to get the ball rolling.

[Jauronimo]

Everything is smoke and mirrors and nothing is as it seems. Classic subterfuge. Look for Kolb to take a dive at the 8:37 mark in the third quarter of the last preseason game

[Optometric Insight]

I wouldn't say its necessarily "staged"... It is an honest position battle; there was always the slight chance that Kolb could have beat out Manuel if Manuel had choked. They wouldn't have drafted Manuel in the first round if they didn't think that he could learn the system during the offseason and start opening day, though.

[Wazzu Bill]

Oh btw I've been following 2BD for a long time, just never made an account to actually post...but hello hello

 

Everything is smoke and mirrors and nothing is as it seems. Classic subterfuge. Look for Kolb to take a dive at the 8:37 mark in the third quarter of the last preseason game

 

Exactly. Marrone isn't going to disclose his game plan - just like flying out Nassib Barkley etc. before the draft...he isn't going to be that predictable

[Dorkington]

Seems pretty straight forward to me so far. Kolb has NFL experience, so he can be thrown into the fire with no problem. EJ doesn't, so it makes sense to show him things a bit slower and ramp it up as we work towards the regular season.

[Wazzu Bill]

I wouldn't say its necessarily "staged"... It is an honest position battle; there was always the slight chance that Kolb could have beat out Manuel if Manuel had choked. They wouldn't have drafted Manuel in the first round if they didn't think that he could learn the system during the offseason and start opening day, though.

 

You're right, "staged" may be too much of a conspiracy. But I do believe that the entire game plan has been revolving around prepping EJ. Another example - starting him on practice team 2 first then moving him up to the starters. Just going through fast-track development.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

Everything is smoke and mirrors and nothing is as it seems. Classic subterfuge. Look for Kolb to take a dive at the 8:37 mark in the third quarter of the last preseason game

Last preseason game?? Come on, it's got to be the third preseason game. Let's be real here.

 

/sarcasm

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I really don't get the argument. Marrone has flat out stated that Manuel has been seeing easier defenses to start with. Like, you know, you would do with someone who has zero NFL experience. The big justification of Kolb starting is that he ought to have the experience to deal with being rushed, the level of speed in pro games and diagnosing complex defensive schemes, so it makes sense for him to start at that level. Manuel seemed to ace the basic D, and now they're starting to break him into the more complex schemes.

 

Marrone probably wants Manuel to start. But he has said that if Manuel wants the job, he has to win it. Kolb is still getting the lion's share of the reps overall, and the lions share of the 1st team. He's in the league, and better hang on tight.

[Bufcomments]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along: To give Manuel a fast track training that he could not have obtained if he was named the starter 2 months ago. Rookie QBs face a whole new level of pressure going into the NFL, and Marrone is giving him doses of pressure to prepare. First, the training camp battle - this will give Manuel something to play for more than just "practice" - give him the mentality he's actually fighting for something. Same goes for preseason...if he's fighting for the job, it is a more similar mindset to a regular season game than just a "scrimmage" game. Manuel is under immense pressure right now instead of naming him the starter so he can breeze through camp and preseason without a worry, then get smashed in his debut.

 

Other people have pointed this out: If we let Kolb start all year, and he fails, then it leads to 2014 being ANOTHER rebuilding year with Manuel's first starting season. Coach knows we need to get the ball rolling.

From watching what they are doing with Manuel, they are bringing him along slowly but not too slow..

 

I like how they doing it. It would not surprise me if he was starting against NE. Why not let the kid learn something from Brady.

 

Play him and if we have to take 7-9 record so be it.

 

But I have a hunch Manuel is going to shock not only us but the NFL as well.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Bufcomments

[BringBackFergy]

From watching what they are doing with Manuel, they are bringing him along slowly but not too slow..

 

I like how they doing it. It would not surprise me if he was starting against NE. Why not let the kid learn something from Brady.

 

Play him and if we have to take 7-9 record so be it.

 

But I have a hunch Manuel is going to shock not only us but the NFL as well.

So long as he doesn't learn something from Brandon Spikes, I agree.

[Nanker]

Life is staged. Sometimes it plays out like you want it to. Sometimes it doesn't.

[KD in CA]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

 

I knew we'd get one today! See that WEO?

 

Life is staged. Sometimes it plays out like you want it to. Sometimes it doesn't.

We are merely players. Performers and portrayers.

[Delete This Account]

staged not the right word. the qb competition was going to take place no matter whom the Bills drafted, and Kolb was made aware of that in talks with the team before he signed.

Kolb still signed despite being fully aware the Bills were going to take a QB at some point in the draft, and likely in the first two rounds.

 

no need to read much more into that. Manuel wasn't, as Marrone has put it, the most "polished" guy coming out of the draft, and that was to be expected.

what was also expected, is that Manuel would grow into the job. how long? who knows.

 

the opinion was, coming out of minicamps, that Kolb had a pretty big edge on Manuel and that there was a very good likelihood he was going to be the starter come the start of the season.

that opinion has now changed based on how well Manuel has looked in this first week of camp.

 

of course, that opinion can change, again, based on how both look in preseason games.

that said, should Manuel continue to show the progress he's made since June, there is a very good chance the job might be his to lose at this point.

 

we'll see.

 

either way, the decision to sign an experienced starter was a necessary move. it's better to have a fallback position and someone to provide competition than simply giving an untested rookie the job. this happened with JP Losman after the Bills cut Bledsoe, and that did not work out very well.

 

jw

[MRW]

I think "staged" is a bit too strong, as you've acknowledged. That would imply to me that the whole thing is a sham, maybe set up to bolster EJ's cred in the locker room. I don't think they're doing that.

 

However, I don't think there's any question about who the coaches would like to see win this battle, and I think they are giving EJ a great deal of assistance in getting acclimated to the NFL, while Kolb basically has had to run with the big dogs from day 1. I don't really see that as unfair, though, as long as by the end of camp EJ has seen the same kind of defenses as Kolb and has shown better ability to deal with them.

[bigK14094]

I think that the offensive game plans will vary with who the starting QB is based on physical capability. And, I would not b e surprised to see a little switching between QB's.....relief pitching as it were. I think that would be a good way to bring EJ along. And, offer a great change of pace in the O during a game....lets see, first series after halftime seems about right.

[Gugny]

Life is staged. Sometimes it plays out like you want it to. Sometimes it doesn't.

All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players. Performers and portrayers. Each another's audience outside the gilded cage.

[eball]

Interesting thread -- I posted the following a couple of days ago:

 

Very interesting that they're allowing EJ to watch Kolb get the $#@% pounded out of him with Pettine's exotic blitzes while he still gets nearly the same number of reps against a more basic defense. I see the mind of an evil genius at work here...

 

...and then, later:

 

I think Doug Marrone is a pretty smart guy, and if he allows his first round draft pick QB to look "good" in practice at the expense of the journeyman backup there's some value in that. Marrone said it will be "obvious" at some point who the starter should be, and perhaps he's orchestrating things to a certain extent to get the result the organization wants. I don't believe Marrone wants to "waste" a season starting Kolb. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

[MarkyMannn]

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along:

 

I'm OK with that. Get the FUTURE on the field NOW

[Big Turk]

I don't get the argument...its been reported by virtually everyone including several national media guys Manuel has been clearly outplaying Kolb so far...

[chris heff]

 

 

I knew we'd get one today! See that WEO?

 

 

We are merely players. Performers and portrayers.

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players:

 

Where have I heard that before?

 

How they are handling Kolb vs Manuel strikes me as just good coaching, not subterfuge.

[The Senator]

EJ is most definitely the starting QB.

 

The big question is can Mike Leach-coached Jeff Tuell beat out Kolb for the #2 spot?

[CodeMonkey]

The big question is can Mike Leach-coached Jeff Tuell beat out Kolb for the #2 spot?

Based on my limited observations so far, my answer based on pure talent is a resounding "no way".

However, other factors other than talent can change the outcome like cutting Kolb for salary etc.so who knows.

[The Senator]

Based on my limited observations so far, my answer based on pure talent is a resounding "no way".

However, other factors other than talent can change the outcome like cutting Kolb for salary etc.so who knows.

Never under-estimate the Mike Leach factor

[Canadian Bills Fan]

I think the Bills coaches want EJ to be the starter but want him to think he has to earn it rather than having it handed to him.

 

IMO the Bills staff thinks the QB1 job is EJ’s to lose.

 

CBF

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

From watching what they are doing with Manuel, they are bringing him along slowly but not too slow..

 

I like how they doing it. It would not surprise me if he was starting against NE. Why not let the kid learn something from Brady.

 

Play him and if we have to take 7-9 record so be it.

 

But I have a hunch Manuel is going to shock not only us but the NFL as well.

 

I agree. There's no doubt that I would prefer Manuel to win, but unless he legitimately wins the job the locker room might become toxic. However, at the current rate of advancement, I think there's a chance he can adapt to the offense to diagnose it about the same as Kolb with his enhanced arm and running ability. We...will see though.

[Wazzu Bill]

I think the Bills coaches want EJ to be the starter but want him to think he has to earn it rather than having it handed to him.

 

Thats a much better way of putting it than I did. What my opinion in this thread is about is the fact that making him earn it will give him way better training than if it was handed to him. I think it's excellent coaching

[White Linen]

The QB battle isn't staged but the stage is being set the proper way. It would be grossly unprofessional for Marrone to share with fans, the media, or the players who he would like to see win the battle. If we could get a glimpse inside his mind or slip Marrone some truth serum I'd be disappointed if he didn't have a heavy lean towards his 1st round QB as he should.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Triple Threat

[Campy]

I don't get the argument...its been reported by virtually everyone including several national media guys Manuel has been clearly outplaying Kolb so far...

 

EJ's also been getting much more vanilla looks, Kolb isn't - and it's a lot easier to look good when the D isn't blitzing or disguising things as much, is it not?

 

I think it's nothing more than a HC and OC being smart - they're bringing EJ along slowly, letting him experience success, gain experience and confidence, and gradually ramping up the degree of difficulty to ensure his trajectory toward a starting role is a positive experience.

 

How many times have we seen young QBs get frustrated and start to push too much and/or try too hard? Inevitably, they get even more frustrated because doing that doesn't lead to success, and they try even harder and push even more - it becomes a vicious self-defeating cycle that is hard to break.

 

I'm sure Marrone thinks EJ will eventually be the guy, but I sincerely believe the Week 1 starter is not predetermined. I think it will be the QB that he feels gives his offense the best opportunity to succeed. I don't feel, from Marrone's perspective, that there's some master plan beyond what I outlined above.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Campy

[Niagara Bill]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along: To give Manuel a fast track training that he could not have obtained if he was named the starter 2 months ago. Rookie QBs face a whole new level of pressure going into the NFL, and Marrone is giving him doses of pressure to prepare. First, the training camp battle - this will give Manuel something to play for more than just "practice" - give him the mentality he's actually fighting for something. Same goes for preseason...if he's fighting for the job, it is a more similar mindset to a regular season game than just a "scrimmage" game. Manuel is under immense pressure right now instead of naming him the starter so he can breeze through camp and preseason without a worry, then get smashed in his debut.

 

Other people have pointed this out: If we let Kolb start all year, and he fails, then it leads to 2014 being ANOTHER rebuilding year with Manuel's first starting season. Coach knows we need to get the ball rolling.

What insight......my 5 year old could have come up with this

[3rdand12]

a great play is one that keeps you interested. Charges up emotion with highs and lows for the main character that you have come to know of sorts as the drama unfolds.

Its not just the ending that makes great theatre its the journey eh?

Its all a stage and the plot is always shifting so pay attention. looking forward to see how this one plays out.

Go Manuel Go Kolb

[The Wiz]

What insight......my 5 year old could have come up with this

I'm sure your 5 yr old could have come up with a better retort than that too. It's a good topic so don't bash.

 

Now on the subject, EJ is being eased in for a reason. Give him as much confidence as possible for opening day.

Edited August 2, 2013 by The Wiz

[Rockinon]

Or........maybe Kolb is getting the exotic blitzes because he has more experience and because it's an area of his game that he obviously needs to work on. Manuel getting more vanilla looks while watching Kolb under fire is all about bringing him along more slowly and giving him time to learn effectively. The last day of practice, the defense worked in a few more blitz packages against Manuel.

 

I believe Manuel will be seeing more and more exotic blitzes throughout camp and Kolb will continue to see everything but the kitchen sink thrown at him. By the end of camp, it will be clear who the starter should be. It will be obvious to us, to members of the team and the coaches.

 

What the coaches are doing is trying to improve the play of every player on the team.....even Kolb.

[hondo in seattle]

Marrone seems like a straight-shooter. Pat Kirwan, who's known Marrone since Marrone was in high school, says Marrone is a straight shooter. If Marrone says there's a true competition for QB, I believe him.

 

Marrone likes his job but he doesn't get to keep it unless he wins. So why wouldn't he start - as he says - the QB who gives him the best chance of winning?

 

Just because it's a fair competition, it doesn't mean he'll treat each QB the same. Kolb and EJ have different developmental needs and are in different places in their evolution as QBs.

[Ronin]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along: To give Manuel a fast track training that he could not have obtained if he was named the starter 2 months ago. Rookie QBs face a whole new level of pressure going into the NFL, and Marrone is giving him doses of pressure to prepare. First, the training camp battle - this will give Manuel something to play for more than just "practice" - give him the mentality he's actually fighting for something. Same goes for preseason...if he's fighting for the job, it is a more similar mindset to a regular season game than just a "scrimmage" game. Manuel is under immense pressure right now instead of naming him the starter so he can breeze through camp and preseason without a worry, then get smashed in his debut.

 

Other people have pointed this out: If we let Kolb start all year, and he fails, then it leads to 2014 being ANOTHER rebuilding year with Manuel's first starting season. Coach knows we need to get the ball rolling.

 

That's what anyone that cares should be hoping for. Expending a 16th overall draft pick on a player that isn't going to be playing on a team that has more holes than a hooker in a kaleidoscope is one of the dumbest things possible.

 

We have to assume that that's correct for now. If not, oh well, we'll know many things soon enough.

 

That theory makes more sense than anything, let's hope it's true.

[ChasBB]

Marrone seems like a straight-shooter. Pat Kirwan, who's known Marrone since Marrone was in high school, says Marrone is a straight shooter. If Marrone says there's a true competition for QB, I believe him.

 

Marrone likes his job but he doesn't get to keep it unless he wins. So why wouldn't he start - as he says - the QB who gives him the best chance of winning?

 

Just because it's a fair competition, it doesn't mean he'll treat each QB the same. Kolb and EJ have different developmental needs and are in different places in their evolution as QBs.

Very well said - agree with every word.

[SBUffalo]

I think of it this way:

 

EVERYBODY wants Manuel to take the job.

NOBODY wants Kolb to win the job.

 

Therefore, Kolb has to be near perfect while Manuel has to be nearly pathetic.

[FLbills]

Just curious how Kolb would look against the "vanilla d"?

 

Also makes me wonder, this is a new offense to both QB's right? With that being said, I'm sure Kolb hasn't had a lot of exposure to Mike P's defensive schemes so to throw more exotic looks at him makes me think they are setting him up for failure, albeit so E.J. experiences success. Which further backs up the stance that D.Mar has his sights set for E.J. to have the reins come week one.

 

It's brilliant I tell ya, brilliant....

[chris heff]

I wrote earlier that I think this is just good coaching. Kolb knows the speed of the game and has faced NFL defenses that blitz, no reason to dumb it down for him. Manuel on the other hand is being eased into the speed and complexity. If you threw everything at him it could slow his learning curve. The objective is to have him ready for opening day.

[1B4IDie]

This about sums up the "battle"

 

If Kolb looks like Peyton Manning in the QB battle he starts.

If EJ looks like Russel Wilson and Kolb does not look like Peyton Manning in the QB battle then EJ starts.

If Kolb looks like Kolb and EJ Manuel looks lost then Kolb starts.

If Kolb looks like Kolb and EJ Manuel is not lost then EJ Manuel starts.

 

 

All of this actual has to happen in the "QB Battle" but the deck is stacked in EJ's favor.

[Thirty Year Fan]

Okay, maybe that's going a little too far, but hear me out:

 

IMO, I think there is a good chance that Marrone has had his mind set on Manuel from the beginning, and here's what his plan may have been all along: To give Manuel a fast track training that he could not have obtained if he was named the starter 2 months ago. Rookie QBs face a whole new level of pressure going into the NFL, and Marrone is giving him doses of pressure to prepare. First, the training camp battle - this will give Manuel something to play for more than just "practice" - give him the mentality he's actually fighting for something. Same goes for preseason...if he's fighting for the job, it is a more similar mindset to a regular season game than just a "scrimmage" game. Manuel is under immense pressure right now instead of naming him the starter so he can breeze through camp and preseason without a worry, then get smashed in his debut.

 

Other people have pointed this out: If we let Kolb start all year, and he fails, then it leads to 2014 being ANOTHER rebuilding year with Manuel's first starting season. Coach knows we need to get the ball rolling.

I get your point but there is no breezing through camp if your the 1st, 2nd or 3rd string at any level!

 

I wrote earlier that I think this is just good coaching. Kolb knows the speed of the game and has faced NFL defenses that blitz, no reason to dumb it down for him. Manuel on the other hand is being eased into the speed and complexity. If you threw everything at him it could slow his learning curve. The objective is to have him ready for opening day.

+1