Cover 1 breakdown of the Dorsey offense

[Scott7975]

IMO (still) Dorsey is the problem

 

Edit: sorry @HappyDays I just noticed you posted this in the Dorsey thread.  I didn't see it because sometimes when I click a thread it skips a page or two that I haven't read yet.  Mods can delete if they want.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Scott7975

[boyst]

is it Dorsey or is it McDermott?

 

It's weird we hear so little out of this organization and the media refuses to critique the team. However, sometimes in what they don't say we find something. In this case it is the idea that McDermott has had input to strategically limit our plays.

[TheBrownBear]

22 minutes ago, boyst said:

is it Dorsey or is it McDermott?

 

It's weird we hear so little out of this organization and the media refuses to critique the team. However, sometimes in what they don't say we find something. In this case it is the idea that McDermott has had input to strategically limit our plays.

I don't buy the McDermott excuse.  It's Dorsey's scheme and playcalling.  Dorsey sucks and should have never been given the job.

[Bruffalo]

25 minutes ago, boyst said:

is it Dorsey or is it McDermott?

 

It's weird we hear so little out of this organization and the media refuses to critique the team. However, sometimes in what they don't say we find something. In this case it is the idea that McDermott has had input to strategically limit our plays.

I don't know but it's much more realistic to move on from Dorsey. If you see the same problems then you know it's likely McD.  Seems straightforward to me, but I'm oversimplifying it.  

[BuffaloBill]

To me this analysis shows the Bills have changed to a system offense that is predictable and too easy for defenses to read.

 

They have become productive in gaining yards but stale.

 

I am becoming a believer in the idea that Dorsey is they wrong coach.

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I don't know but it's much more realistic to move on from Dorsey. If you see the same problems then you know it's likely McD.  Seems straightforward to me, but I'm oversimplifying it.  

The same problems repeated over and over again are an issue for McD. If Dorsey refuses or is unable to do anything McDermott is responsible. Unfortunately he is in over his head on defense. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I don't know but it's much more realistic to move on from Dorsey. If you see the same problems then you know it's likely McD.  Seems straightforward to me, but I'm oversimplifying it.  

How many different OCs w similar issues do we need to see

[Success]

They took a huge risk not bringing an experienced OC on to a team that was already a contender.

 

It's just not working out. When I watch our O, the word that comes to mind is "vanilla."  Other offenses have much more creativity and unpredictability.

 

[Bruffalo]

3 minutes ago, boyst said:

The same problems repeated over and over again are an issue for McD. If Dorsey refuses or is unable to do anything McDermott is responsible. Unfortunately he is in over his head on defense. 

I agree with you, but McD isn't getting the boot this season or likely next season either.  Like it or not, but he has a long lease inside the org.  

 

Move on from Dorsey and put Shula in the OC spot.  I don't see how it can be worse than Dorsey. 

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

How many different OCs w similar issues do we need to see

 

At least 1.  I think the McD's gotta go crowd has a point, I just don't see it happening. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Bruffalo

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Success said:

They took a huge risk not bringing an experienced OC on to a team that was already a contender.

 

It's just not working out. When I watch our O, the word that comes to mind is "vanilla."  Other offenses have much more creativity and unpredictability.

 

Our offense is definitely not vanilla, at least not in pass concepts

 

Both Dorsey and Daboll built top offenses here, and both have struggled w inconsistencies that imo stem primarily from a poor offensive line and lack of skill guys.

 

How much of those issues were a result of having a defensive guy at HC are up for debate I suppose

[Roundybout]

13 minutes ago, boyst said:

The same problems repeated over and over again are an issue for McD. If Dorsey refuses or is unable to do anything McDermott is responsible. Unfortunately he is in over his head on defense. 

Yeah it can’t be the massive injuries to multiple superstars or anything huh

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The one thing I have noticed just using the eye test is it seems like Allen is only using half the field most of the time. High low reads or low high reads to half the field. Very rookie QB stuff. This video supports that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Dorsey calls individual plays but doesn’t set up a coherent strategy every week, unique to attacking the opponent.  Allen has largely just accepted the coaches’ mandates to execute the plays that are called post-snap.  McD delegates the offense to Dorsey except the occasional directives to run the ball more.  Beane wildly overestimates the ability of his offensive personnel.  Pegula just stays out of it which is probably for the best but there is no one setting a high standard of accountability within the organization.  It’s all kind of depressing.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

What’s funny is analytics told us not to draft Josh Allen. Now analytics is telling us not to fire Ken Dorsey.

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Dorsey calls individual plays but doesn’t set up a coherent strategy every week, unique to attacking the opponent.  Allen has largely just accepted the coaches’ mandates to execute the plays that are called post-snap.  McD delegates the offense to Dorsey except the occasional directives to run the ball more.  Beane wildly overestimates the ability of his offensive personnel.  Pegula just stays out of it which is probably for the best but there is no one setting a high standard of accountability within the organization.  It’s all kind of depressing.

The comment by Allen that he runs the plays that are called was the beginning of the end for Ken Dorsey. First time I ever heard Josh Allen deflect blame.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Another dynamic WR cuts through all of this cloud of what is really happening behind the scenes at OBD. 

 

Allen would throw to that player if he was available. 

 

4 of the 5 WRs we have can't separate down the field, so Allen is chained to them operating as underneath options, or banking on Davis to get by on blown coverages. 

 

9 games in and it's still Kincaid on dumpoffs and outlets, the volume has just increased. 

 

So ... not many levers to pull with 8 games left to try and get another playmaking element from the group of players we have. 

 

Dumping off to Fournette is not a real plan. Envisioning Harty suddenly getting 6 balls a game is hard to imagine. This team LOVES Gabe Davis, as long as he remains untouchable then ...

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Another dynamic WR cuts through all of this cloud of what is really happening behind the scenes at OBD. 

 

Allen would throw to that player if he was available. 

 

4 of the 5 WRs we have can't separate down the field, so Allen is chained to them operating as underneath options, or banking on Davis to get by on blown coverages. 

 

9 games in and it's still Kincaid on dumpoffs and outlets, the volume has just increased. 

 

So ... not many levers to pull with 8 games left to try and get another playmaking element from the group of players we have. 

 

Dumping off to Fournette is not a real plan. Envisioning Harty suddenly getting 6 balls a game is hard to imagine. This team LOVES Gabe Davis, as long as he remains untouchable then ...

If I were a DC facing the Bills offense I wouldn’t be afraid of anyone, including Diggs. The reason I say Diggs is because I would just have a safety over top of him all game. There’s nothing else to worry about.

 

Thats why hopefully the Kincaid connection grows. Kincaid could literally have 10 catches every game. And he should until they stop it. 

[NoSaint]

32 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I agree with you, but McD isn't getting the boot this season or likely next season either.  Like it or not, but he has a long lease inside the org.  

 

Move on from Dorsey and put Shula in the OC spot.  I don't see how it can be worse than Dorsey. 

 

 

At least 1.  I think the McD's gotta go crowd has a point, I just don't see it happening. 

they all are long leashes until they are not. Especially if the coach has not given the owner a ring to make it permanent 

[Dubie54]

Cook out of the backfield is open a ton of times. They should run more designed plays for him but they need to scheme it out by having Josh pump fake, freeze the LBs, and then drop it to Cook.

 

Also that long pass play to Harty could have worked if Josh had thrown more to the center of the field and let Harty chase it to that side. The corner was on the outside of Harty and would have had a hard time disrupting the play as there was no safety support in the middle.

 

It's easy to say he should have done this or that. The Bills have the talent but they are just not drawing up plays that creatively fool the defenses and Josh is missing a lot of open guys by locking into his first option.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

People who already didn't like McD just want to assign the offensive blame to him to pile on their case against him.  But the reality is, offensively, Dorsey is the substantial problem.  But if McD and Beane don't find the balls to fire Dorsey then Dosey is probably going to take at least one of them down with him at a later date.  

 

FIRE DORSEY already!  The offense has been searching for an identity for a year and a half, its pathetic Dorsey still can't establish one.  

[Dubie54]

6 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Another dynamic WR cuts through all of this cloud of what is really happening behind the scenes at OBD. 

 

Allen would throw to that player if he was available. 

 

4 of the 5 WRs we have can't separate down the field, so Allen is chained to them operating as underneath options, or banking on Davis to get by on blown coverages. 

 

9 games in and it's still Kincaid on dumpoffs and outlets, the volume has just increased. 

 

So ... not many levers to pull with 8 games left to try and get another playmaking element from the group of players we have. 

 

Dumping off to Fournette is not a real plan. Envisioning Harty suddenly getting 6 balls a game is hard to imagine. This team LOVES Gabe Davis, as long as he remains untouchable then ...

Separation is also based on scheming and route design.

[Figster]

Numerous plays show Cook open for dump offs with huge chunks of yardage in front of him.

 

Allen needs to take what the oppositions D is giving him.

 

Staring down his WR's, not going through his progressions, WTF...

[NoSaint]

32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Our offense is definitely not vanilla, at least not in pass concepts

 

Both Dorsey and Daboll built top offenses here, and both have struggled w inconsistencies that imo stem primarily from a poor offensive line and lack of skill guys.

 

How much of those issues were a result of having a defensive guy at HC are up for debate I suppose

im sorry but I do feel our passing concepts are dated when you compare to the teams actually on the leading edge. And moving the wrong direction at that.

compared to bills teams past, sure but compared to the shanahans, Reid’s and McDaniel’s of the nfl…. Not so creative.

[boyst]

34 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Yeah it can’t be the massive injuries to multiple superstars or anything huh

i didn't say it wasn't or was or anything else that we simply can't do it. calm yourself.

[finn]

42 minutes ago, Success said:

When I watch our O, the word that comes to mind is "vanilla."  Other offenses have much more creativity and unpredictability.

 

Agree. Dorsey is like most people in new situations. He doing ok for a first-time coordinator, but you don't "ok" for a team that is otherwise ready to go to the Super Bowl. McDermott really rolled the dice choosing him. At the time, it seemed logical and harmonious to hire from within. But it was a mistake. He's just another Joe Coordinator. 

 

This is a real test for McDermott. It's hard to admit a mistake of this magnitude, hard to be perceived as disloyal, hard to change course in midstream. Much easier to justify staying the course--right into long-term mediocrity. Then it's HIS job on the line. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

13 minutes ago, Figster said:

Numerous plays show Cook open for dump offs with huge chunks of yardage in front of him.

 

Allen needs to take what the oppositions D is giving him.

 

Staring down his WR's, not going through his progressions, WTF...

People aren’t saying this just to hear themselves talk.

 

 

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

im sorry but I do feel our passing concepts are dated when you compare to the teams actually on the leading edge. And moving the wrong direction at that.

compared to bills teams past, sure but compared to the shanahans, Reid’s and McDaniel’s of the nfl…. Not so creative.

 

[Logic]

I haven't had the chance to watch the linked video yet because I'm at work, but...

My main complaints about Ken Dorsey's offense:

- Does not take advantage of the full skillsets of his personnel and put them in the best positions to succeed (see Dalton Kincaid and Deonte Harty)

- Playcalls do not build off of past playcalls. Not enough logical sequencing or using past plays and tendencies to set up future plays

- Run game not particularly creative or diverse

- Uncreative use of pre-snap motion

- Does not take advantage of pick plays often enough

- Goes away from what works too frequently. If something works and you drive right down the field with it -- STICK TO IT UNTIL THEY STOP IT!

- Playbook seems TOO big at times. When you have as many penalties, execution errors, and mental mistakes as the Bills offense lately, it's time to simplify

- Ignores the obvious too often (like calling a shotgun play on the 1-inch line instead of a QB sneak)

- Does not make creative use of Josh Allen's legs, which are one of the Bills offense's BEST weapons

- Generally appears to lack the creativity and innovation of the Shannahans, Reids, McDaniels, and McVays of the world

Add to all of this the fact that Dorsey does not seem to be a very good "Josh Allen whisperer" and doesn't seem particularly great at the actual COACHING part of his job, and you have...well...a pretty compelling case for a change.

I fully understand that there are lots of metrics that paint the Bills as a good offense. This is a weird case where the reality of the situation does not seem to be accurately reflected in statistics. I don't think any reasonable person watching the Bills week after week would conclude that what they're doing right now on offense is working, or is putting the Bills in the best position to win football games. 

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, and the statistics and analytics don't necessarily show it.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Logic

[schoolhouserock]

A very nice video from Cover1.

 

About midway through, he makes a point that really resonates with me. He tries to explain what the Bills’ players mean by ‘we just have to execute the offense’ or ‘we just have to run the plays that are called.’

 

The Bills are not scheming. They’re not trying to pick on specific weaknesses of the opposing defense. Instead, they are running an offense that is supposed to work against any defense. If that’s the case, then why bother scheming?

 

We have been seeing the ramifications of that approach. The Bills’ offense is incredibly efficient because they can do well against any defensive call at just about any time. However, the lack of scheming also takes pressure off of defenses. There’s no “you’re only as strong as your weakest link” when facing the Bills because they don’t prepare to exploit your weakest link. Further, every play begins to stand alone, rather than comprise a full set of plays that is a drive.

 

Combined with the fact that so little is planned for when the Bills have to go off script, the Bills have just taken away everything that makes Josh an alien. They aren’t prepared for big off-script plays. They, almost by design, do not find a rhythm within a drive, and they sometimes hammer their heads against a defense’s strength rather than scheming against weaknesses.

 

So very frustrating.

[NoSaint]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I see that we have production but define “creativity” or “innovation” in that chart vs “possibly the most versatile qb in football” as an example of why I don’t think this addresses the topic.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I see that we have production but define “creativity” or “innovation” in that chart vs “possibly the most versatile qb in football” as an example of why I don’t think this addresses the topic.

I don't think we are as creative as some of the teams you listed but those are among the best offensive minds in the league, many w crazy talent available

 

Dorsey and our offense much like Daboll before him is doing a very good job w the resources available imo

[JerseyBills]

To be fair, last year the running joke was Dorsey just ran go routes. only looking for explosive plays. Hopefully they can find a balance going forward.  Lot of football to be played. Lot of talent. go bills

[NoSaint]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't think we are as creative as some of the teams you listed but those are among the best offensive minds in the league, many w crazy talent available

 

Dorsey and our offense much like Daboll before him is doing a very good job w the resources available imo

challenge: Miami, SF, us, kc

 

josh is probably 2nd among tua, purdy, mahomes, 

 

cook is likely behind cmc but otherwise?

 

our TE situation is interesting in that we likely have the 3rd and 4th best in the group, assuming Kelce hasn’t hit a wall
 

WR 1 is likely second best?

 

WR2 is a weakness, but likely in line with kc

 

offensive design? Solidly 4th. By a gap.
 

let’s not pretend that we are out on left field barely surviving on skill position talent. Having those 3 ahead mean he’s not top 10%. I bet we could crowdsource another 3-6 without a ton of stress or debate and 6 more would mean he’s not too 30%. 

the guy has a long career ahead. He is the limitation currently though. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by NoSaint

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

challenge: Miami, SF, us, kc

 

josh is probably 2nd among tua, purdy, mahomes, 

 

cook is likely behind cmc but otherwise?

 

our TE situation is interesting in that we likely have the 3rd and 4th best in the group, assuming Kelce hasn’t hit a wall
 

WR 1 is likely second best?

 

WR2 is a weakness, but likely in line with kc

 

offensive design? Solidly 4th. By a gap.
 

let’s not pretend that we are out on left field barely surviving on skill position talent. 

the guy has a long career ahead. He is the limitation currently though. 

cook last imo...def behind mostert and achane, he might be as good as pacheco altho i personally do not think so

 

diggs only behind hill

 

te wasteland, kincaid has promise but is a rookie, knox is replacement level

 

wr2 disaster, one of the worst in the league

 

oline is bad bad

 

we have one top8ish WR and that's largely it is the way i see it, very similar construction to KC rn

 

 

[TampaBillsJunkie]

1 hour ago, Success said:

They took a huge risk not bringing an experienced OC on to a team that was already a contender.

 

It's just not working out. When I watch our O, the word that comes to mind is "vanilla."  Other offenses have much more creativity and unpredictability.

 

This is the truly sucky part. Daboll is going to implode with the Giants. Maybe they give him another year or two but he's a better OC than HC.  And he's a hometown guy.. What better story than winning the SB for your hometown team. Can you imagine how much this offense could have evolved if he stayed. I don't blame him for wanting to be his own man and maybe McD was neutering him the way he may be doing to Dorsey.  We were so close and I hate seeing the drift get farther from those Super Bowl shores.

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

IMO (still) Dorsey is the problem

 

Edit: sorry @HappyDays I just noticed you posted this in the Dorsey thread.  I didn't see it because sometimes when I click a thread it skips a page or two that I haven't read yet.  Mods can delete if they want.

 

 

I can end all the BS in one shot.  Hire an OC well versed in the WCO.  Make Josh take his drops and get rid of the ball on time.

 

Elway was a gun slinger and no SB wins until Shannahan was hired and installed a WCO.  It's what Mahomes runs, Rogers and others.  

 

The scheming will help our guys get open esp, Kincaid.  Diggs would Excell in it.  Enough of this backyard BS where it's mainly WR deciding what variation of a route to run.

 

We use the passing game as part of the run game as Walsh designed it to be.  Cook would look a lot like McCaffrey in that offense.

 

It helps Josh, it opens up so many things, and it would make McDermott happy.

[Jauronimo]

36 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I see that we have production but define “creativity” or “innovation” in that chart vs “possibly the most versatile qb in football” as an example of why I don’t think this addresses the topic.

Once you accept that what we are watching on Sundays is actually a really good offense with amazing QB play everything else gets a lot easier.  Repeat after me:  DVOA and EPA, DVOA and EPA.

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

cook last imo...def behind mostert and achane, he might be as good as pacheco altho i personally do not think so

 

diggs only behind hill

 

te wasteland, kincaid has promise but is a rookie, knox is replacement level

 

wr2 disaster, one of the worst in the league

 

oline is bad bad

 

we have one top8ish WR and that's largely it is the way i see it, very similar construction to KC rn

 

 

achane is drafted later, injured, and has less than 40 carries. Mostert is 31 and has 3k career yards. That we are not using cook as well is not the same as being the worst back. There lays my argument. 
 

durham smythe in Miami isn’t a better TE. 
 

The dolphins line wasnt great and they are down 2 starters. We are arguably better

 

Better qb

 

id take tyreek over diggs but we aren’t talking an embarrassing gap there 

 

we added their wr3 to be our wr3/4/5(?)

 

is waddle vs Davis enough that Dorsey just doesn’t have to have expectations?
 

The dolphins surely scheme better releases for receivers, creative running attacks and generally stress defenses much more than Dorsey does on a schematic level. It’s not just talent.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

achane is drafted later, injured, and has less than 40 carries. Mostert is 31 and has 3k career yards. That we are not using cook as well is not the same as being the worst back. There lays my argument. 
 

durham smythe in Miami isn’t a better TE. 
 

The dolphins line wasnt great and they are down 2 starters. We are arguably better

 

Better qb

 

id take tyreek over diggs but we aren’t talking an embarrassing gap there 

 

we added their wr3 to be our wr3/4/5(?)

 

is waddle vs Davis enough that Dorsey just doesn’t have to have expectations?
 

The dolphins surely scheme better releases for receivers, creative running attacks and generally stress defenses much more than Dorsey does on a schematic level. It’s not just talent.

Again if you want to say McDaniel schemes around their guys better I am in total agreement, I love the way their offense works

 

I'm just saying I believe we oversell our talent on that side of the ball

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

Oh god not more epa garbage.  Wake the hell up.  IDGAF what our epa says.  We scored 18 points. EPA don't mean jack. 18 points and two turnovers.  You pull out epa.  If anything epa should show you this week is that epa is garbage and doesn't reflect what actually happened.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Scott7975

[dave mcbride]

35 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

cook last imo...def behind mostert and achane, he might be as good as pacheco altho i personally do not think so

 

diggs only behind hill

 

te wasteland, kincaid has promise but is a rookie, knox is replacement level

 

wr2 disaster, one of the worst in the league

 

oline is bad bad

 

we have one top8ish WR and that's largely it is the way i see it, very similar construction to KC rn

 

 

Put Cook on Miami and he's averaging 7-8 yards per carry.