Cover 1 breakdown of the Dorsey offense

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

The defenses called in the video was designed to take away the stuff Josh likes. It was their game plan. They said so much. The offensive plays in video had 2+ guys open on about 8 of 10 plays. What else do you want? 
 

Unsure what you disagree with in my assessment that would require you to have A22. Almost all my commentary in this thread have been about the 10 or so plays used by C1. All you have to do is watch the video this thread is based on and then you’d know what plays you disagree on. 
 

There are valid criticism of Dorsey. I even mentioned some of your same concerns in the post you quoted. But it seems like the comment section in this thread just listened to the audio, didn’t actually watch any of the video, and are repeating some of the platitudes. 
 

Simply a defense was called, the offensive play call beats it with multiple receivers open fairly regularly in the video C1 provided. And this entire thread has burst into “bUt ThAt IsN’t WhAt AlLeN lIkEs To dO. wE aReN’t ScHeMiNg GuYs OpEn”. WTF does not scheming guys open mean in a video where like 8 of 10 plays hand picked to support the premise,  has 2+ guys open on the plays?

 

Is this what I want this offense to look like? No, not regularly. But if teams refuse to break out of a cover 2 shell? He’ll yes, beat the shirt out of them with 4-6 yard routes underneath until they break out of it and start cheating up. 
 

 

I watched the video a day ago. My memory is not that good to pair each player on each play with your comments. I’ll look again tomorrow. 
 

as for “taking away what Josh likes” you realize this isn’t the first year defense has given Josh this coverage right? It’s not even the second year. Josh has faced and torched this coverage when Daboll was here too. 
 

josh has faced man. He has faced zone. He has faced blitz. He has faced cover zero. He has faced two high designed to take away the deep stuff. He has torched it all. That’s why Josh was a problem in 2021 for defenses. Because he torched everything thrown at him. 
 

Daboll had a plan, not just a generic system. Daboll was also far more creative and less predictable. Dorsey just lines up and runs the play. I’m not even a Daboll fan but Dorsey’s offense isnt even in his league. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Scott7975

[Turk71]

Dorsey and McD are both the problem. This is not just Dorsey's offense. I would bet that McDs influence on it is detrimental. His obsession with 'balance'  and 'complementary football' has ruined the rhythm and flow. McD should be coaching a small college or high school team. His clap clap, slogan, catchphrase style would be a better fit there. He could gain valuable experience like learning how to manage the clock, timeouts, knowing the situation and responding appropriately. Watching him on the sideline, especially in crucial, stressful moments, it is obvious he is out of his league and the Bills are disadvantaged because of it. 

[Einstein]

13 hours ago, Success said:

It's just not working out. When I watch our O, the word that comes to mind is "vanilla."  Other offenses have much more creativity and unpredictability.

 

 

That’s why I was so excited to see the double reverse flea flicker thing.

 

Not because I thought it would work, but rather because it was a sign that there was some creativity left *somewhere* in the dusty pages of the playbook.

[BullBuchanan]

14 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

IMO (still) Dorsey is the problem

 

Edit: sorry @HappyDays I just noticed you posted this in the Dorsey thread.  I didn't see it because sometimes when I click a thread it skips a page or two that I haven't read yet.  Mods can delete if they want.

 

 

I'll start blaming the OC when the QB hits the open WRs and we still can't win games. That hasn't been the case thus far this season.

[BillMafia716ix]

13 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The one thing I have noticed just using the eye test is it seems like Allen is only using half the field most of the time. High low reads or low high reads to half the field. Very rookie QB stuff. This video supports that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Josh doesn’t go through his progressions when his 1st read isn’t there. He predetermines his throws before the play starts. Which is why you see him miss routine throws when there are guys open underneath. Dorsey is getting the heat and he deserves it for sure. But Josh isn’t playing light out either 

[LyndonvilleBill]

17 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Another dynamic WR cuts through all of this cloud of what is really happening behind the scenes at OBD. 

 

Allen would throw to that player if he was available. 

 

4 of the 5 WRs we have can't separate down the field, so Allen is chained to them operating as underneath options, or banking on Davis to get by on blown coverages. 

 

9 games in and it's still Kincaid on dumpoffs and outlets, the volume has just increased. 

 

So ... not many levers to pull with 8 games left to try and get another playmaking element from the group of players we have. 

 

Dumping off to Fournette is not a real plan. Envisioning Harty suddenly getting 6 balls a game is hard to imagine. This team LOVES Gabe Davis, as long as he remains untouchable then ...

I'd be all for adding another dynamic WR, but I think that would still only cover the symptoms and still not fix the problem. Without better scheming of the routes or adding some creativity it probably won't do much against good teams.

 

I understand the thought of continuity and having Josh's input on Dorsey, but, it was the wrong choice and time to move on. I wasn't a huge Daboll fan either but at least he had balls and would get on Josh for bad plays. The only time I saw Dorsey get fired up is when he threw crap around in the booth and got a meme out of it. This O needs a ball breaker not a friend in the booth.

 

We need some creativity,  a flee flicker is not what I call creativity,  that's just a gadget play. Give me some jet sweeps, some pitch plays, some better screens and some more uptempo. 

[schoolhouserock]

8 hours ago, Mango said:

C1 showed about 10 plays. Something like 8 of them were against cover 2. And each time he said something like “these are cover 2 beater routes. But what is he scheming.”

 

I honestly don’t know what means. Each play had 2+ guys open. It’s so odd to me to look at a play with multiple guys open and go “I agree frustrating play design”

 

I think there are some situational things Dorsey struggles with. I wish he’d do some different things to get guys working in their skill sets so they’re set up for success. I also think that the constant misfires in reads and route running also falls on coaching. 
 

There was a play C1 showed that was single high man, with a QB spy and we ran cover 2 zone route concepts. But many times we run man concepts on one side, zone on the other. This is where I get curious about the ongoings at OBD. Does Allen have the freedom to check out of that? I know we run the EP which is supposed to be super malleable but requires a lot of work from the QB/WR pre and post snap. Was that a misread? Or did we think because we saw two high all day, that’s what we were getting? I think this is the area we’re getting lost on offense the most.
 

I’ll get through the complete A22 tomorrow but if those 10 or so plays are the most compelling case against Dorsey’s play design, then the design isn’t the problem.

 

. 

My take on the lack of scheming aspect was that, if Josh looked the wrong way or even if he looked the correct way and the defense played it well, the other concept is as far away as possible (other side of the field). If they are getting two high all day, maybe that’s not the best plan?

 

Further, there’s always a lot of “two high concept that side” “alt concept other side”. Repeat. That has a brutal efficiency to it, but certainly cannot be mistaken with creativity or even really a stressing of the defense. To me, scheming also means playing a mind game or two with specific defenders, but maybe that isn’t quite right or perhaps just asking too much? Or perhaps my layman arse just can’t appreciate those that are occurring. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

21 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

IMO (still) Dorsey is the problem

 

Edit: sorry @HappyDays I just noticed you posted this in the Dorsey thread.  I didn't see it because sometimes when I click a thread it skips a page or two that I haven't read yet.  Mods can delete if they want.

 

 

I watched it. 

 

It's more of the same - for Allen to be "successful" in this offense he needs to take checkdowns the entire game. In a nutshell, that's it. 

 

Why? 

- The standing caveat, outside of Diggs, there isn't another WR on the Bills that threatens the defense. We are out-athleted. 

 

- McDermott and Beane have been in Josh's ears relentlessly to not run, to slide, to get out of bounds - he doesn't run anymore. And Dorsey has gone along with this and now doesn't call designed runs either. That lever has been taken away. 

 

- Bills ran 12% play action in this game. It works for the Lions, but the Bills are smarter. 

 

- McDermott is now actively stopping the hurry up. 

 

- Despite all the numbers, we continue to be a static-Shotgun based team. 

 

- The Bills don't use modern motion concepts. 

 

- And Dorsey - seems like he has 10 plays in his rolodex. The defense shows this, this is the coverage beater. However, as others on the All-22 have shown, the linebackers now aren't going for any of these RPO fakes and DBs (like Patrick Peterson) know our WRs only run a few routes, so everything is being squeezed. 

 

- To the point above, Dorsey can't figure out anything to do with Deonte Harty, so McDermott has claimed him for Special Teams, and he'll never get out of that quicksand. 

 

- McDermott and Dorsey watch the tape and conclude Gabe is too valuable to take off the field, so you play 10 on 11 every week. If they sign him to an extension they get what they deserve next year and beyond. 

 

 

 

So where does that leave the Bills? I think two places that we're familiar with:

 

1. Allen has to target Diggs 15+ times per game. He's the Davante Adams in the 2018-2022 version of the Packers. He's the only elite offensive weapon we have. 

 

2. Coordinators see that the Bills are predictable, have no athletes, aren't threatened deep, so they will force Allen to make 10-12 play drives to score, and Allen being chained into a pop-gun offense will eventually bypass the checkdowns and look for big plays, so he's thrown an interception in 5 straight games now. 

 

 

We already hear every interview that Allen gives he mentions (unprompted) how small Buffalo is, how there isn't anything to do. If Beane can't get him better players to throw to, how long before he asks out? 

 

 

 

 

[Mango]

26 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I watched it. 

 

It's more of the same - for Allen to be "successful" in this offense he needs to take checkdowns the entire game. In a nutshell, that's it. 

 

Why? 

- The standing caveat, outside of Diggs, there isn't another WR on the Bills that threatens the defense. We are out-athleted. 

 

- McDermott and Beane have been in Josh's ears relentlessly to not run, to slide, to get out of bounds - he doesn't run anymore. And Dorsey has gone along with this and now doesn't call designed runs either. That lever has been taken away. 

 

- Bills ran 12% play action in this game. It works for the Lions, but the Bills are smarter. 

 

- McDermott is now actively stopping the hurry up. 

 

- Despite all the numbers, we continue to be a static-Shotgun based team. 

 

- The Bills don't use modern motion concepts. 

 

- And Dorsey - seems like he has 10 plays in his rolodex. The defense shows this, this is the coverage beater. However, as others on the All-22 have shown, the linebackers now aren't going for any of these RPO fakes and DBs (like Patrick Peterson) know our WRs only run a few routes, so everything is being squeezed. 

 

- To the point above, Dorsey can't figure out anything to do with Deonte Harty, so McDermott has claimed him for Special Teams, and he'll never get out of that quicksand. 

 

- McDermott and Dorsey watch the tape and conclude Gabe is too valuable to take off the field, so you play 10 on 11 every week. If they sign him to an extension they get what they deserve next year and beyond. 

 

 

 

So where does that leave the Bills? I think two places that we're familiar with:

 

1. Allen has to target Diggs 15+ times per game. He's the Davante Adams in the 2018-2022 version of the Packers. He's the only elite offensive weapon we have. 

 

2. Coordinators see that the Bills are predictable, have no athletes, aren't threatened deep, so they will force Allen to make 10-12 play drives to score, and Allen being chained into a pop-gun offense will eventually bypass the checkdowns and look for big plays, so he's thrown an interception in 5 straight games now. 

 

 

We already hear every interview that Allen gives he mentions (unprompted) how small Buffalo is, how there isn't anything to do. If Beane can't get him better players to throw to, how long before he asks out? 

 

 

 

 

I agree with some of this. But one thing . I think defenses do respect the big play. They don’t respect anything else. Often they’ll cheat over to Diggs/Davis and give an extra cushion to Cook, Kincaid, Shakir. If we want to open up the rest of the offense we have to beat the shirt out of teams by making them pay for that until they shift. 
 

You make reference to defense knowing the play. This wasn’t a game where nobody was open. This was a game where we didn’t throw to the open guy. 
 

I think defenses don’t adjust shallow because they know we’ll get away from it before they have to adjust. 
 

To your points I do get frustrated with Dorsey that when we find something that works we get away from it, whether it be running, play action, or playing behind center. But along the same lines, we have to take the pass plus that are there. 

[colin]

12 minutes ago, Mango said:

I agree with some of this. But one thing . I think defenses do respect the big play. They don’t respect anything else. Often they’ll cheat over to Diggs/Davis and give an extra cushion to Cook, Kincaid, Shakir. If we want to open up the rest of the offense we have to beat the shirt out of teams by making them pay for that until they shift. 
 

You make reference to defense knowing the play. This wasn’t a game where nobody was open. This was a game where we didn’t throw to the open guy. 
 

I think defenses don’t adjust shallow because they know we’ll get away from it before they have to adjust. 
 

To your points I do get frustrated with Dorsey that when we find something that works we get away from it, whether it be running, play action, or playing behind center. But along the same lines, we have to take the pass plus that are there. 

 

we don't seem to run any pre nap read quick plays targeting kincaid, diggs, and cook.  well, we do, and we score, and then we shun them to the netherworld.

 

if d's will just play deep zone to take away the allen run and deep pass from us, then we can run some of the stuff that new england ran for ever.  technically we have the same offensive system they used when they were great, but we refuse to run effectively and hate uptempo fast plays because it scores too fast or something.

 

instead of having this constant attack the whole field and pray that the protection holds up and josh doesn't take the bait stuff, we can just run more deterministic stuff at least some times.

[cgg716]

22 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

I don't buy the McDermott excuse.  It's Dorsey's scheme and playcalling.  Dorsey sucks and should have never been given the job.

Given what we know of the HC, it's impossible to completely rule out some influence in the offense. It's safe and vanilla, perfect for Mcd.. but last year many were saying Dorsey took too many shots, it just feels like mcd and not Dorsey 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I watched it. 

 

It's more of the same - for Allen to be "successful" in this offense he needs to take checkdowns the entire game. In a nutshell, that's it. 

 

Why? 

- The standing caveat, outside of Diggs, there isn't another WR on the Bills that threatens the defense. We are out-athleted. 

 

- McDermott and Beane have been in Josh's ears relentlessly to not run, to slide, to get out of bounds - he doesn't run anymore. And Dorsey has gone along with this and now doesn't call designed runs either. That lever has been taken away. 

 

- Bills ran 12% play action in this game. It works for the Lions, but the Bills are smarter. 

 

- McDermott is now actively stopping the hurry up. 

 

- Despite all the numbers, we continue to be a static-Shotgun based team. 

 

- The Bills don't use modern motion concepts. 

 

- And Dorsey - seems like he has 10 plays in his rolodex. The defense shows this, this is the coverage beater. However, as others on the All-22 have shown, the linebackers now aren't going for any of these RPO fakes and DBs (like Patrick Peterson) know our WRs only run a few routes, so everything is being squeezed. 

 

- To the point above, Dorsey can't figure out anything to do with Deonte Harty, so McDermott has claimed him for Special Teams, and he'll never get out of that quicksand. 

 

- McDermott and Dorsey watch the tape and conclude Gabe is too valuable to take off the field, so you play 10 on 11 every week. If they sign him to an extension they get what they deserve next year and beyond. 

 

 

 

So where does that leave the Bills? I think two places that we're familiar with:

 

1. Allen has to target Diggs 15+ times per game. He's the Davante Adams in the 2018-2022 version of the Packers. He's the only elite offensive weapon we have. 

 

2. Coordinators see that the Bills are predictable, have no athletes, aren't threatened deep, so they will force Allen to make 10-12 play drives to score, and Allen being chained into a pop-gun offense will eventually bypass the checkdowns and look for big plays, so he's thrown an interception in 5 straight games now. 

 

 

We already hear every interview that Allen gives he mentions (unprompted) how small Buffalo is, how there isn't anything to do. If Beane can't get him better players to throw to, how long before he asks out? 

 

 

 

 

I don't think our WR talent is that bad.  Davis is probably weaker than some WR2's, but there are a ton of functioning offenses with similar players there.  How much better is Michael Gallup than Davis?  Or literally anyone on KC? Shakir is getting some run in the slot, kincaid has the as-advertised hands.  Our offense is getting stuck in the mud and we don't use someone like harty who is a different type of player than a davis.  It just feels like an OC who wants to be smarter than everyone else - and he's not.  

 

Play-action doesn't work if they know their front 4 will take care of the running game.   The linebackers just play the pass.  Our inability to run or establish the line of scrimmage hurts there.  

 

To me the biggest issues are that they just seem out of sync.  Allen's getting glued to reads for whatever reason based on what he sees pre-snap.  The timing is off on the window throws at times, and it just doesn't seem to flow from high to low or left to right, a to b.  Its like A... not there... not there... maybe... no better go to b.  So of course people look covered... they ran their route, were maybe open for a second and then someone picked up coverage - thats just how zone works.  

Edited November 8, 2023 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Straight Hucklebuck]

10 minutes ago, Mango said:

I agree with some of this. But one thing . I think defenses do respect the big play. They don’t respect anything else. Often they’ll cheat over to Diggs/Davis and give an extra cushion to Cook, Kincaid, Shakir. If we want to open up the rest of the offense we have to beat the shirt out of teams by making them pay for that until they shift. 
 

You make reference to defense knowing the play. This wasn’t a game where nobody was open. This was a game where we didn’t throw to the open guy. 
 

I think defenses don’t adjust shallow because they know we’ll get away from it before they have to adjust. 
 

To your points I do get frustrated with Dorsey that when we find something that works we get away from it, whether it be running, play action, or playing behind center. But along the same lines, we have to take the pass plus that are there. 

I think Beane has culpability here - the skill personnel here is pedestrian. We get excited about Khalil Shakir because the team has finally recognized after being on the team for a year and a half that he is their best slot option - the bar is so low here. But best case scenario, he's doing what he's doing now - 4/4 - 45 yards. The problem is the Bills ignore the statistics that Allen throws to WRs and have given him running backs and tight ends. Gabe is still the #2, and Allen has journeyman behind him with no depth on the perimeter. 

 

I listen to Dorsey's press conferences and this is common theme - always wanting to change it up, never become predictable. But in his search for unpredictability, he just goes to play 9 or 10 in his play sheet and defenses have seen this over and over again. It really is starting to sound like Dick Jauron and Chan Gailey at the end, and now our players are parroting it: "watch the tape and correct mistakes", "can't make any conclusions until I see the tape", "just going with the plays that are called". 

 

Allen has his own warts, and he's closer to Brett Favre as a worker than Peyton Manning. Ultimately the Bills want Allen to be Tom Brady, and he's just not going to play patient and mistake free. 

[Coach Tuesday]

13 hours ago, Mango said:

2) Agreed. Watching live, this was my frustration.

 

3) I think this is where the answers to most of our questions about this offense lies. 
 

4) I think not being able to run the ball and not having a screen game made it very difficult to get CIN to break from their base defense. While it would be nice to steal some plays in the middle of the field, I’m not sure it would have gotten them to shift philosophy. 
 

6) Honestly, run it until they stop it. I don’t care. 4 yards a clip is fine. You won’t go broke making a profit. Make them get out of their base by taking the opportunities presented. Once they do they, assert your will. 
 

7 and 10) I think these two points answer each other. Rush 3/4, spy the. QB, and make Allen make good decisions. Some of the post games I hear from other teams are more polite versions of the “make him play QB” we heard about Lamar. But to your point; I don’t think Dorsey is helping either. 
 

😎I agree, you have to sometimes throw the deep ball to keep everybody honest. But situationally after a stalled drive and the defense not being able to get off the field, that sequence of events on the 3rd drive was bad. I’ll also add, Cincinnati was protecting the deep ball in their Tampa 2. It didn’t feel like they needed to drop down. We needed to make them pay for not respecting anything else other than the big play. 
 

If anything I think defenses sometimes take advantage of Josh’s impatience. He wants to push the ball down the field so bad. He can’t help himself sometimes. 
 

Looking forward to taking a look at the first half A22 and what was different in the second other than tempo. 

Agree with you for the most part wrt cover 2 attack but in the clips Erik showed, I was struck by the lack of man-beaters to attack the single high scenarios.  Where are the crossers, etc., in those scenarios?  If I’m an opposing DC I am playing man coverage against this offense.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

22 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

People who already didn't like McD just want to assign the offensive blame to him to pile on their case against him.  But the reality is, offensively, Dorsey is the substantial problem.  But if McD and Beane don't find the balls to fire Dorsey then Dosey is probably going to take at least one of them down with him at a later date.  

 

FIRE DORSEY already!  The offense has been searching for an identity for a year and a half, its pathetic Dorsey still can't establish one.  

 

It's HIS coordinator! Who imposed Dorsey on McDermott? Who let Dorsey come back? 

 

You still act like McDermott is just a helpless, innocent bystander. If he doesn't like something, he can change it. He's the Head Coach. And if he doesn't know how to change anything on that side of the ball, he should not be a Head Coach. A Head Coach is a different job from a coordinator. You DO have to be involved in all facets of the game and be knowledgable about all facets of the game. 

 

You keep doing this over and over again where you think McD and Dorsey are isolated issues. They are not. They are one in the same. 

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I watched it. 

 

It's more of the same - for Allen to be "successful" in this offense he needs to take checkdowns the entire game. In a nutshell, that's it. 

 

Why? 

- The standing caveat, outside of Diggs, there isn't another WR on the Bills that threatens the defense. We are out-athleted. 

 

- McDermott and Beane have been in Josh's ears relentlessly to not run, to slide, to get out of bounds - he doesn't run anymore. And Dorsey has gone along with this and now doesn't call designed runs either. That lever has been taken away. 

 

- Bills ran 12% play action in this game. It works for the Lions, but the Bills are smarter. 

 

- McDermott is now actively stopping the hurry up. 

 

- Despite all the numbers, we continue to be a static-Shotgun based team. 

 

- The Bills don't use modern motion concepts. 

 

- And Dorsey - seems like he has 10 plays in his rolodex. The defense shows this, this is the coverage beater. However, as others on the All-22 have shown, the linebackers now aren't going for any of these RPO fakes and DBs (like Patrick Peterson) know our WRs only run a few routes, so everything is being squeezed. 

 

- To the point above, Dorsey can't figure out anything to do with Deonte Harty, so McDermott has claimed him for Special Teams, and he'll never get out of that quicksand. 

 

- McDermott and Dorsey watch the tape and conclude Gabe is too valuable to take off the field, so you play 10 on 11 every week. If they sign him to an extension they get what they deserve next year and beyond. 

 

 

 

So where does that leave the Bills? I think two places that we're familiar with:

 

1. Allen has to target Diggs 15+ times per game. He's the Davante Adams in the 2018-2022 version of the Packers. He's the only elite offensive weapon we have. 

 

2. Coordinators see that the Bills are predictable, have no athletes, aren't threatened deep, so they will force Allen to make 10-12 play drives to score, and Allen being chained into a pop-gun offense will eventually bypass the checkdowns and look for big plays, so he's thrown an interception in 5 straight games now. 

 

 

We already hear every interview that Allen gives he mentions (unprompted) how small Buffalo is, how there isn't anything to do. If Beane can't get him better players to throw to, how long before he asks out? 

 

 

 

 

Giving Gabe a big contract instead of giving Tee Higgins a bigger one would be like the Bears giving Edmunds a big contract instead of giving R. Smith a slightly bigger one. Higgins is headed to FA for sure. Bengals won't have the cap space even to franchise him. Bite the bullet. No half measures. Pay the man. Josh would have 2 #1 receivers. If anyone wanted D. Hop, Higgins is an elite talent in his prime. If they cut Boyd loose too we might look at him, but Higgins is the prize. It is possible of course that they can find that player in the draft but there are few receiver prospects that are guaranteed can't miss and you've got to be sure. Addison could have been that guy and the Bills liked him a lot.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

I don't think our WR talent is that bad.  Davis is probably weaker than some WR2's, but there are a ton of functioning offenses with similar players there.  How much better is Michael Gallup than Davis?  Or literally anyone on KC? Shakir is getting some run in the slot, kincaid has the as-advertised hands.  Our offense is getting stuck in the mud and we don't use someone like harty who is a different type of player than a davis.  It just feels like an OC who wants to be smarter than everyone else - and he's not.  

 

Play-action doesn't work if they know their front 4 will take care of the running game.   The linebackers just play the pass.  Our inability to run or establish the line of scrimmage hurts there.  

 

To me the biggest issues are that they just seem out of sync.  Allen's getting glued to reads for whatever reason based on what he sees pre-snap.  The timing is off on the window throws at times, and it just doesn't seem to flow from high to low or left to right, a to b.  Its like A... not there... not there... maybe... no better go to b.  So of course people look covered... they ran their route, were maybe open for a second and then someone picked up coverage - thats just how zone works.  

Look at Dallas' production though - its the same as us - Lamb by a mile, and then Ferguson is the next most productive player. 

 

Think Dallas misses an Amari Cooper caliber WR in these big games? 

 

Our talent isn't that bad...

 

Diggs is Top 5 in the league and Allen targets him all the time. Should he target him even more? 

 

Kincaid is still be used on underneath routes, but the volume has increased. He looks shifty though. 

 

Outside of that .... Davis, is he getting faster? Is he becoming a better route runner? Is he showing anything that he hasn't shown in 2020, 2021 or 2022? 

Harty - Our coaching staff doesn't trust him, he has 113 yards so far - 12 yards/game. 9 snaps the last two games. 

 

Sherfield -Less than 1,000 career receiving yards. 

 

Shakir - Took him 1.5 years to earn trust. 

 

Knox - Completely invisible this season. 

 

Morris/Shorter/Isabella - ?????????

[Jauronimo]

21 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Oh god not more epa garbage.  Wake the hell up.  IDGAF what our epa says.  We scored 18 points. EPA don't mean jack. 18 points and two turnovers.  You pull out epa.  If anything epa should show you this week is that epa is garbage and doesn't reflect what actually happened.

Nah bro.  EPA says this offense is first tier.  So what if we are 25th in the league in our drives resulting in points.  Football is all about stalling out drives at midfield.

[Alphadawg7]

35 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

It's HIS coordinator! Who imposed Dorsey on McDermott? Who let Dorsey come back? 

 

You still act like McDermott is just a helpless, innocent bystander. If he doesn't like something, he can change it. He's the Head Coach. And if he doesn't know how to change anything on that side of the ball, he should not be a Head Coach. A Head Coach is a different job from a coordinator. You DO have to be involved in all facets of the game and be knowledgable about all facets of the game. 

 

You keep doing this over and over again where you think McD and Dorsey are isolated issues. They are not. They are one in the same. 

 

You have a clear bias towards McD.  If gas prices go up its like you will blame McD for that too.

 

McD does not have the input on the offense you think he does.  If you spent time watching actual interviews with McD, Beane, Dorsey, Daboll, etc over the past few years you would know that.  

 

Yes, Dorsey is a coach on his staff.  But firing a coordinator in season is not something teams looking to compete for championships take lightly, especially ones who have had some success already.  They will look at continuity more than change there and try and fix the issues before making a drastic move.

 

Now, I personally think Dorsey should be fired, but I also think the odds of them doing it now are low and if there was going to be an in season change it might come the week before our bye to give whoever is taking over time to settle in.  

 

So you can keep raging about McD all you want, but that doesn't mean you are correct about how much involvement he has on the offensive scheme.  The offense is Dorseys no matter how much you want to absolve him so you can blame the guy you are more out for in McD.  

Edited November 8, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Agree with you for the most part wrt cover 2 attack but in the clips Erik showed, I was struck by the lack of man-beaters to attack the single high scenarios.  Where are the crossers, etc., in those scenarios?  If I’m an opposing DC I am playing man coverage against this offense.

I see what you’re saying. But on the two plays against man, one had 2-3 guys open and was foiled by the Davis face mask. The other I think we may have looked at the wrong side of the field pre snap. I think the answer to this play is the answer to a lot of questions around the current offense. What are the check? What’s the process in cover one man? Was it a flub from Allen? Is there no check? Did he look right when he needed to look left?
 

I actually wouldn’t go man though. I think the right call is for I test Allen’s patience underneath in zone with a spy. We just can’t help ourselves. 
 

Until the offense stops trying to beat itself there’s no reason to take the risk. Allen wants you to man up. Diggs wants to take you one on one. Just keep the play in front of you, spy Allen, and wait for him to test you right into the teeth of the defense.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mango

[DuckyBoys]

they kept Dorsey on to run what McDermott is comfortable with will not put his fragile defense into trouble  Not sure what exactly Sean is thinking  If you dont want Josh doing too much then expend some resources so you can run a full offense  Bills cant run , for sure have no short yardage run game without using Allen as a battering ram  Cant run screens.  Do not have someone to stretch the field vertically  Your asking your qb to somehow have long drives without the benefit of a solid run  game and not giving him the tools to be explosive  Its the same crap every week  Hey Josh be special and dont f it up

[HomeskillitMoorman]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You have a clear bias towards McD.  If gas prices go up its like you will blame McD for that too.

 

McD does not have the input on the offense you think he does.  If you spent time watching actual interviews with McD, Beane, Dorsey, Daboll, etc over the past few years you would know that.  

 

Yes, Dorsey is a coach on his staff.  But firing a coordinator in season is not something teams looking to compete for championships take lightly, especially ones who have had some success already.  They will look at continuity more than change there and try and fix the issues before making a drastic move.

 

Now, I personally think Dorsey should be fired, but I also think the odds of them doing it now are low and if there was going to be an in season change it might come the week before our bye to give whoever is taking over time to settle in.  

 

So you can keep raging about McD all you want, but that doesn't mean you are correct about how much involvement he has on the offensive scheme.  The offense is Dorseys no matter how much you want to absolve him so you can blame the guy you are more out for in McD.  

 

You think McD being uninvolved in the offense is an excuse, I don't. That's what this comes down to. He's the HEAD COACH, he's not the defensive coordinator. The offense IS also his problem whether he is involved or he has the wrong people running it. That's what you don't seem to understand. You think McD should be completely absolved for whatever happens on that side of the ball. It's like you don't understand what a Head Coach is. 

 

Also, that very idea that McD should have no clue whatsoever on what's happening on offense is flawed in it of itself. You think they go into a game and he's just totally surprised but what the offense is doing? That he has no idea what the gameplan is or what they're working on? That's a huge problem if that's the case. And if he does know and has done absolutely nothing to influence any kind of change, that's his fault too. It all comes back to the Head Coach, that's why they are the Head Coach. 

 

And Dorsey was here last year, McD had a chance to evaluate him. He brought him back. Again, on McD. All of it is. 

 

I would love for you to explain how I want Dorsey "absolved" when I'm calling for both to be fired. I also wanted Dorsey out after last year. 

 

I don't have a bias here, you do. You're willing to bend and twist whatever it takes to hold McDermott unaccountable. The guy hasn't put in any work to improve his shortcomings for over 6 years now and still makes the same exact mistakes and is now completely in over his head when his roster and QB aren't bailing him out anymore. 

 

Do you think as a complete team that we're getting better and climbing upwards?

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Nah bro.  EPA says this offense is first tier.  So what if we are 25th in the league in our drives resulting in points.  Football is all about stalling out drives at midfield.

Where are you getting this info? PFR has our offense 5th in % of drives ending in a score and 4th in points/drive

[Jauronimo]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Where are you getting this info? PFR has our offense 5th in % of drives ending in a score and 4th in points/drive

 

 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

 

 

We have 93 total offensive drives

 

18 pass TDs and 10 rush TDs

Bass is 12/15 on FGs

 

We score 18+10+12=40 drives out of 93 right

 

and 40/93≠31.4%

[Jauronimo]

 

 

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We have 93 total offensive drives

 

18 pass TDs and 10 rush TDs

Bass is 12/15 on FGs

 

We score 18+10+12=40 drives out of 93 right

 

and 40/93≠31.4%

Probably because you are omitting key phrases like "since the Bills skid started against the Jags".  Like I have been telling you, success against Washington, Vegas and Miami was fun but it means nothing going into week 10.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

 

 

Probably because you are omitting key phrases like "since the Bills skid started against the Jags".  Like I have been telling you, success against Washington, Vegas and Miami was fun but it means nothing going into week 10.

I guess I would want to see how they define 'garbage time' because I wouldn't consider many of the games we've played weeks 5-9 having much garbage time

Oh nm that's just the EPA calculator I got it

[DrDawkinstein]

54 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You have a clear bias towards McD.  If gas prices go up its like you will blame McD for that too.

 

McD does not have the input on the offense you think he does.  If you spent time watching actual interviews with McD, Beane, Dorsey, Daboll, etc over the past few years you would know that.  

 

Yes, Dorsey is a coach on his staff.  But firing a coordinator in season is not something teams looking to compete for championships take lightly, especially ones who have had some success already.  They will look at continuity more than change there and try and fix the issues before making a drastic move.

 

Now, I personally think Dorsey should be fired, but I also think the odds of them doing it now are low and if there was going to be an in season change it might come the week before our bye to give whoever is taking over time to settle in.  

 

So you can keep raging about McD all you want, but that doesn't mean you are correct about how much involvement he has on the offensive scheme.  The offense is Dorseys no matter how much you want to absolve him so you can blame the guy you are more out for in McD.  

 

You're making an awfully good argument for the folks in the "fire McD" camp.

 

He's supposed to be a Head Coach. Not just a DC. If he doesnt have input on the Offense, then he shouldnt be getting paid like a HC. And we should find a HC who can handle ALL the responsibilities of the job.

[Jauronimo]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I guess I would want to see how they define 'garbage time' because I wouldn't consider many of the games we've played weeks 5-9 having much garbage time

Oh nm that's just the EPA calculator I got it

 

Garbage time defined in the comments.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jauronimo

[GoBills808]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

 

Had to got into the comments to find but this is how garbage time was defined.

 

 

🤙I just edited that post once I saw that chart

 

The EPA calculator is open source here

https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/

 

You can play around w them yourself 

 

FYI he set the garbage time filter to where Bills offensive EPA is worst😂😂

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

🤙I just edited that post once I saw that chart

 

The EPA calculator is open source here

https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/

 

You can play around w them yourself 

 

FYI he set the garbage time filter to where Bills offensive EPA is worst😂😂

But is the methodology flawed? This offense is poor until its basically too late.  They should be in the 2 minute drill all game.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

But is the methodology flawed? This offense is poor until its basically too late.  They should be in the 2 minute drill all game.

 yes tbh

 

It excludes basically the entire second half of the Bengals game

 

In London it would exclude almost everything beyond when the score was 11-7 w 9mins left

[Bob Jones]

One thing I saw after watching this is that the Bengals were not covering Cook...at all...coming out of the backfield after he made his chip blocks. I guess they would have adjusted, but JA really should have been throwing to him early on, like on the INT play, no one was even close to Cook.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

I agree with some of this. But one thing . I think defenses do respect the big play. They don’t respect anything else. Often they’ll cheat over to Diggs/Davis and give an extra cushion to Cook, Kincaid, Shakir. If we want to open up the rest of the offense we have to beat the shirt out of teams by making them pay for that until they shift. 
 

You make reference to defense knowing the play. This wasn’t a game where nobody was open. This was a game where we didn’t throw to the open guy. 
 

I think defenses don’t adjust shallow because they know we’ll get away from it before they have to adjust. 
 

To your points I do get frustrated with Dorsey that when we find something that works we get away from it, whether it be running, play action, or playing behind center. But along the same lines, we have to take the pass plus that are there. 

 

Defenses don't adjust shallow because they don't give a crap about the shallow.  We could take it all game long and they wouldn't adjust because it doesn't matter.  When you throw for 2-3 yards a pop, it only takes one mistake to kill the drive. Those drives are too long to consistently be perfect.   This is the backbone of what McD has done on defense since he has gotten here.  It is nothing new.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Scott7975

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

You think McD being uninvolved in the offense is an excuse, I don't. That's what this comes down to. He's the HEAD COACH, he's not the defensive coordinator. The offense IS also his problem whether he is involved or he has the wrong people running it. That's what you don't seem to understand. You think McD should be completely absolved for whatever happens on that side of the ball. It's like you don't understand what a Head Coach is. 

 

Also, that very idea that McD should have no clue whatsoever on what's happening on offense is flawed in it of itself. You think they go into a game and he's just totally surprised but what the offense is doing? That he has no idea what the gameplan is or what they're working on? That's a huge problem if that's the case. And if he does know and has done absolutely nothing to influence any kind of change, that's his fault too. It all comes back to the Head Coach, that's why they are the Head Coach. 

 

And Dorsey was here last year, McD had a chance to evaluate him. He brought him back. Again, on McD. All of it is. 

 

I would love for you to explain how I want Dorsey "absolved" when I'm calling for both to be fired. I also wanted Dorsey out after last year. 

 

I don't have a bias here, you do. You're willing to bend and twist whatever it takes to hold McDermott unaccountable. The guy hasn't put in any work to improve his shortcomings for over 6 years now and still makes the same exact mistakes and is now completely in over his head when his roster and QB aren't bailing him out anymore. 

 

Do you think as a complete team that we're getting better and climbing upwards?

 

Im not making any excuses for McD.  I am simply stating Dorsey is making the offensive decisions.  People keep falsely calling this McD's offense, McD wants to be conservative, etc etc.  All of it is incorrect. 

 

You want to be pissed at McD, which you clearly are, then nothing wrong with that.  But people need to separate facts from anger because the facts are that the offense out there on Sunday is Dorseys design, his scheme, his play calling.  He is the big problem on offense.  

 

I get the whole low hanging fruity blanket statements of "Well McD is the HC, so it all falls on him"...well that is all fine and dandy, but its also not so cut and dry as if McD is in the offensive meetings helping design the offense and gameplan.  

 

McD can tell Dorsey what he wants all day long, but its up to Dorsey to design and execute that on gamedays, not McD.  So be pissed at McD for not firing Dorsey yet, I am too.  But to keep ranting on a message board that it is McD that needs to fix the offense or that the offense is a product of him is just not based in the reality of the situation. 

 

Like I said before...the people who have been anti-McD are making this more about him to feed that bias of wanting him gone, but the reality is Dorsey is the root problem on game day of why our offense is sputtering.  But hey, if you want to be mad at McD for not firing Dorsey yet, fair game.

52 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You're making an awfully good argument for the folks in the "fire McD" camp.

 

He's supposed to be a Head Coach. Not just a DC. If he doesnt have input on the Offense, then he shouldnt be getting paid like a HC. And we should find a HC who can handle ALL the responsibilities of the job.

 

I didn't say he has no input, I mean both Dorsey and McD have said he does.  I am saying he doesn't have the input some people think.  He isn't, even as HC, in the offensive meetings scheming plays and game plans.  

[Scott7975]

40 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 yes tbh

 

It excludes basically the entire second half of the Bengals game

 

In London it would exclude almost everything beyond when the score was 11-7 w 9mins left

 

Ok but does that matter when we scored 6 points and 18 points in a loss those two games?  If you want EPA to show that the offense was good those two games then you are just looking for reasons to make the offense look good when it wasn't.  I watched those two games and the offense was terrible.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

59 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

One thing I saw after watching this is that the Bengals were not covering Cook...at all...coming out of the backfield after he made his chip blocks. I guess they would have adjusted, but JA really should have been throwing to him early on, like on the INT play, no one was even close to Cook.

 

If we can't establish a run game at the LOS... this is the same thing.  You have a very high completion likelihood (we'll say... 85%), and he has space.  One missed tackle and that short throw can become 10-15 yards.  Even with a solid tackle he's getting 4-6 yards.  These are the short completions that create space for someone to get behind the backers and in front of the safeties.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

 yes tbh

 

It excludes basically the entire second half of the Bengals game

 

In London it would exclude almost everything beyond when the score was 11-7 w 9mins left

Do you honestly believe this offense is as good as EPA suggests?  How confident are you that the leagues top EPA offense will score on any given drive?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Look at Dallas' production though - its the same as us - Lamb by a mile, and then Ferguson is the next most productive player. 

 

Think Dallas misses an Amari Cooper caliber WR in these big games? 

 

Our talent isn't that bad...

 

Diggs is Top 5 in the league and Allen targets him all the time. Should he target him even more? 

 

Kincaid is still be used on underneath routes, but the volume has increased. He looks shifty though. 

 

Outside of that .... Davis, is he getting faster? Is he becoming a better route runner? Is he showing anything that he hasn't shown in 2020, 2021 or 2022? 

Harty - Our coaching staff doesn't trust him, he has 113 yards so far - 12 yards/game. 9 snaps the last two games. 

 

Sherfield -Less than 1,000 career receiving yards. 

 

Shakir - Took him 1.5 years to earn trust. 

 

Knox - Completely invisible this season. 

 

Morris/Shorter/Isabella - ?????????

 

They did trade for cooks, assuming he'd have a role and he doesn't... 

 

We just don't do a good job stressing the defense and moving people, and making them think.  We're letting them dictate coverages and adjusting around it.  Our cover 2 beaters are basic but they don't seem to stress the safeties much at all.  We rarely get completions going north, its always side to side or coming back to the ball.  Rarely stretch the linebackers north south unless its play action, other than that we just try and find windows in the zone east west.  

 

It's a complicated short passing offense... that results in little to no YAC, no chunk plays, and too many checks and pre-snap thought.  You rely on QB and pass catcher to make the right read every time.  You go to 3x1 to try and stress that cover 2, but then run WR screens.  Running backs are an after thought and are only used as checkdowns.  Rarely do we attack with vertical routes.  It's just so frustrating to watch.  

[Scott7975]

I am going to put my basic theory on whats going on with this offense. This offensive design is to read pre snap what the coverage is. That determines what side of the field Josh looks at. The leverage of the dbs dictates what route the receivers run. This is why Josh doesnt see the open guy on the still shot image people love to post and say "look, he's open!!" and why this offense always looks so disjointed.  Maybe not all the time but at least some of the time.  Josh isn't looking 1-2-3-4-(5). Its really more like 1-2 oh crap what now?  Probably why it may also seem he is "locked on" to a guy.

 

There is no gameplan really specific to an opponent. There is no cat and mouse going on during the game.  Dorsey calls a play and they line up. If in this coverage read that side of the field.  If in that coverage read this side of the field.  This is why we get comments like "he only runs two routes" from the opposing players.  Teams that disguise their coverage well makes you read the wrong thing. That slows down the decision making.  Teams have enough film of this now to know exactly where the players are going and where the reads are going to be.  There may be guys open but they probably were not part of the reads based on the coverage Josh seen presnap. 

 

This may be highly efficient from a play perspective because it technically should have the coverage beat no matter what play the defense is running as the offense should always have an out.  However, it takes extreme execution on every single play from start to finish. The presnap read has to be correct.  If it isn't then it has to be identified immediately.  Only half the receivers are reads so they have to get open. It's more difficult for them to get open because the defense knows what the primary reads are so they toughen up their coverage to those reads post snap. The other options aren't even looked at except when Josh is in hero mode after the play has broken down. It also limits the offensive routes. The D knows where the players are going because they know what routes are being run based on their own coverage call. This is extremely limiting as really only half the receivers are ever being considered. It also means the receiver and the QB both have to always read things the same way. It puts the entire weight of the game on Josh shoulders and none of it on the coordinator having a good gameplan and being good at chess.  No plays are run to set up future plays.  

 

Just a theory. I obviously don't know ***** about football like some others around here but I do have a really good mind for troubleshooting as thats what I did all my life.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Scott7975