How Good is Josh Allen Really?

[BillsUberAlles]

49 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

Warren Moon was at least Offensive Player of the Year. I don't think Josh has a good case for 1st ballot HOF. I'm actually kind of shocked that even on a Bills forum that people would suggest that. Making the HOF at all might even be questionable but I think he will if he plays long enough and can put up some stats. There's also a good chance he has a Cam Newton career and starts to suck after he can't scramble. We'll see 

 

Maybe the fact that every GM in the NFL has been looking for the next Josh Allen since he was drafted.

 

And every year they don't seem to find one. Pretty strong indication of how the rest of the NFL talent scouters view him.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

32 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Over the last 20 years, the only QBs to win the Super Bowl are:

 

Greats of the game:

Brady

Manning

Mahomes (yes, he is a great right now)

 

MVP/Good QBs with great postseason winners:

Stafford

Wilson

Flacco

 

I have no idea how they won:

Foles

 

Regardless, only 1 QB (Foles) who wasn't a solid top 10 QB has won a super bowl in 20 years.

 

Allen, by all statistical and eye test measures is a top 5 QB in the game, and has been over the past 4 years.  That gives him as good a shot as any to continue with the trend of Super Bowl winners.

 

Allen is IMO the second best QB in the game right now behind Mahomes.  I think he is trying to win games this year without the physical tax on the body early on, which I do believe has worn him down over the course of the past few seasons.  He has the chance to turn it on at any time, so we should rest easy that Allen will put us in any game we play.

 

Is he a robot?  No.  But is a QB good enough to win the Super Bowl?  Absolutely.

Pretty sure you're missing Brees in that list.

[balln]

2 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Name a single year Burrow was the "better" QB, knowing he has in fact taken his team to a super bowl, when his postseason stat line was 5 TDs 2 INTs and averaged 280 total yards a game.  Yes his team won to get him to the Super Bowl, but Burrow was not the driving factor in that postseason

Eye test >>> passing stats

 

joe burrow is a true pocket passer. He can beat you with his mind and arm better than Allen. Burrow can go deep , intermediate and short with much better accuracy , anticipation and clutch play 
 

allen is better w his legs

 

It’s not by much. Sort of like Big Ben (Allen) vs Troy Aikman (burrow). But burrow is better. Dude doesn’t get phased at ALL. No defense spooks him 

 

stop being a homer 

[Cray51]

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Pretty sure you're missing Brees in that list.

Brees was 23 years ago.  I took the last 20 winners

[balln]

2 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Brees was 23 years ago.  I took the last 20 winners

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

 

 

36 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

You found the 1 guy that made it without a Superbowl. I only asked the question if that was even possible and apparently there is 1 guy ever. I wouldn't put Josh in that category. Hopefully he has 10 more years to prove me wrong and not 5 more like Cam Newton

Apparently also Dan Fouts and Sonny Jurgensen 🤷🏼‍♂️, fwiw never even went to a SB before donning their gold jackets. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by NoHuddleKelly12

[Billsfan1972]

17 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Brees was 23 years ago.  I took the last 20 winners

2009 is 15 years not 23.... Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Rogers all too in last 20 years.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Cray51]

4 minutes ago, balln said:

Eye test >>> passing stats

 

joe burrow is a true pocket passer. He can beat you with his mind and arm better than Allen. Burrow can go deep , intermediate and short with much better accuracy , anticipation and clutch play 
 

allen is better w his legs

 

It’s not by much. Sort of like Big Ben (Allen) vs Troy Aikman (burrow). But burrow is better. Dude doesn’t get phased at ALL. No defense spooks him 

 

stop being a homer 

So you are saying Burrow is a better passer in every phase, both mentally and in translation to physical output, but has never had more passing TDs than Allen in any season.  And if Burrow is the clearly better pocket passer, who thinks the game at least two or three tiers above Allen (since I'm assuming you are weighting Allen's mobility difference to Burrow in the same way you address Burrow's advantage in processing), why isn't Burrow clearly dominating in any single statistical category in pure passing?  You can reference to his completion % gap, but this year when Allen has stayed truer to the pocket, he is putting up incredible accuracy metrics.

 

Let me take a step back.  The claim is Burrow is a much more accurate thrower at every level than Allen. But Burrow ranked below Allen in deep ball accuracy last year... even though Allen threw 20 more passes downfield

Burrow is claimed to be unphased and ice in his veins, and the clearly more clutch player (would love to know how that is measured), but Allen has more 4th quarter comeback wins since the two have both been in the league (9 vs. 5)

Burrow is less spooked by defenses, but Burrow only has 6 less TOs than Allen (37 vs. 31).  So if Burrow isn't spooked at all, then do we say Allen is only spooked a little?  Because the difference here is a level, but it's not two or three tiers better.

 

Burrow has fewer total yards, fewer total touchdowns, fewer passing touchdowns, more passing yards, fewer overall turnovers, fewer comebacks, more man games lost to injury, more playoff wins, but fewer impactful playoff performances, same amount of Super Bowl rings, and fewer wins every year they have played in the league (including this year)

 

If you want to say Burrow is in the same league as Allen, sure.  But to tell me to stop being a homer when I've tried to be analytical in my approach while you use "Doesn't get phased or spooked" and "Clutch play" as your defining factors.... maybe stop being so poor in your ability to rate quarterbacks if you are asking me to stop being a homer.

14 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

2009 is 15 years not 23.... Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Rogers all too in last 20 years.

Jeez my math is terrible.... you are right.  Total apologies!

 

Adjusting my list to 20 years:

Greats of the game:

Brady

Manning

Mahomes (yes, he is a great right now)

Brees

Rodgers

Roethlisberger

E. Manning

(I consider all of these guys top 5 QBs of their generation, so to me they are looked at as "greats".  Understand if others feel differently)

 

MVP/Good QBs with great postseason winners:

Stafford

Wilson

Flacco

 

I have no idea how they won:

Foles

 

Point still remains, you need a top 5 QB to have a chance to win the Super Bowl.  I believe Allen fits that criteria

[balln]

13 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

So you are saying Burrow is a better passer in every phase, both mentally and in translation to physical output, but has never had more passing TDs than Allen in any season.  And if Burrow is the clearly better pocket passer, who thinks the game at least two or three tiers above Allen (since I'm assuming you are weighting Allen's mobility difference to Burrow in the same way you address Burrow's advantage in processing), why isn't Burrow clearly dominating in any single statistical category in pure passing?  You can reference to his completion % gap, but this year when Allen has stayed truer to the pocket, he is putting up incredible accuracy metrics.

 

Let me take a step back.  The claim is Burrow is a much more accurate thrower at every level than Allen. But Burrow ranked below Allen in deep ball accuracy last year... even though Allen threw 20 more passes downfield

Burrow is claimed to be unphased and ice in his veins, and the clearly more clutch player (would love to know how that is measured), but Allen has more 4th quarter comeback wins since the two have both been in the league (9 vs. 5)

Burrow is less spooked by defenses, but Burrow only has 6 less TOs than Allen (37 vs. 31).  So if Burrow isn't spooked at all, then do we say Allen is only spooked a little?  Because the difference here is a level, but it's not two or three tiers better.

 

Burrow has fewer total yards, fewer total touchdowns, fewer passing touchdowns, more passing yards, fewer overall turnovers, fewer comebacks, more man games lost to injury, more playoff wins, but fewer impactful playoff performances, same amount of Super Bowl rings, and fewer wins every year they have played in the league (including this year)

 

If you want to say Burrow is in the same league as Allen, sure.  But to tell me to stop being a homer when I've tried to be analytical in my approach while you use "Doesn't get phased or spooked" and "Clutch play" as your defining factors.... maybe stop being so poor in your ability to rate quarterbacks if you are asking me to stop being a homer.

Jeez my math is terrible.... you are right.  Total apologies!

 

Adjusting my list to 20 years:

Greats of the game:

Brady

Manning

Mahomes (yes, he is a great right now)

Brees

Rodgers

Roethlisberger

E. Manning

(I consider all of these guys top 5 QBs of their generation, so to me they are looked at as "greats".  Understand if others feel differently)

 

MVP/Good QBs with great postseason winners:

Stafford

Wilson

Flacco

 

I have no idea how they won:

Foles

 

Point still remains, you need a top 5 QB to have a chance to win the Super Bowl.  I believe Allen fits that criteria

Burrow crushed Allen head to head in buf. In any performance measure you want to try and cherry pick

 

burrow beat mahommes in kc and has been to a Super Bowl.

 

to me he’s better than Allen. I already said not by much.

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I said after the 13 seconds game that he had potential to be not just the best in the league today, but the GOAT.  His skillset is so complete.  He has ALL of the physical skills, all of the throws, and all of the intangibles & competitiveness.

 

I still think that.  As a possibility, of course.

 

 

After the playoff run in '21, I started feeling the same way.  But he's been frustratingly inconsistent since then.  All QBs, of course, suffer inconsistency but Allen moreso than, say, Mahomes or Brady.

 

I think the receivers (not getting separation, drops...) are part of that.  I think the OL has been a big part of the inconsistency though, so far this season, it seems we've made some progress.  The coaches are part of it, too.  But Allen owns some of the inconsistency too.  He needs to not let his frustration in low-scoring games impact his decision-making.  

[Ga boy]

5 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

Allen has possibly the greatest combination of arm talent and size in a QB ever.  When he's on, he's unstoppable.  But he also seems prone to the jitters in high pressure situations or primetime games which causes him to make very bad decisions on the field.  Although his "deer-in-the-headlights" look has declined in frequency over the years, whenever it shows up I start drinking heavily.

 

Basically, if we played all of our games at 1pm on Sundays we would go 17-0.

Nerves happens to many HOF QBs.  I saw it in JK12 in the SBs.  Never saw it in Favre, Montana, Manning, and Mahomes.  Hopefully, JA17 gets beyond the jitters because that’s his Achilles heel.  However, I wouldn’t want any other QB playing today.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

 There's also a good chance he has a Cam Newton career and starts to suck after he can't scramble. We'll see 

 

Allen is in his 6th season.

 

In Cams 6th season he was already toast. He had 19 TD’s and 14 INT’s that season.

 

Allen is so superior to Cam that i’ve never understood the comparison.

 

.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Einstein

[Mikie2times]

20 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

So you are saying Burrow is a better passer in every phase, both mentally and in translation to physical output, but has never had more passing TDs than Allen in any season.  And if Burrow is the clearly better pocket passer, who thinks the game at least two or three tiers above Allen (since I'm assuming you are weighting Allen's mobility difference to Burrow in the same way you address Burrow's advantage in processing), why isn't Burrow clearly dominating in any single statistical category in pure passing?  You can reference to his completion % gap, but this year when Allen has stayed truer to the pocket, he is putting up incredible accuracy metrics.

 

Let me take a step back.  The claim is Burrow is a much more accurate thrower at every level than Allen. But Burrow ranked below Allen in deep ball accuracy last year... even though Allen threw 20 more passes downfield

Burrow is claimed to be unphased and ice in his veins, and the clearly more clutch player (would love to know how that is measured), but Allen has more 4th quarter comeback wins since the two have both been in the league (9 vs. 5)

Burrow is less spooked by defenses, but Burrow only has 6 less TOs than Allen (37 vs. 31).  So if Burrow isn't spooked at all, then do we say Allen is only spooked a little?  Because the difference here is a level, but it's not two or three tiers better.

 

Burrow has fewer total yards, fewer total touchdowns, fewer passing touchdowns, more passing yards, fewer overall turnovers, fewer comebacks, more man games lost to injury, more playoff wins, but fewer impactful playoff performances, same amount of Super Bowl rings, and fewer wins every year they have played in the league (including this year)

 

If you want to say Burrow is in the same league as Allen, sure.  But to tell me to stop being a homer when I've tried to be analytical in my approach while you use "Doesn't get phased or spooked" and "Clutch play" as your defining factors.... maybe stop being so poor in your ability to rate quarterbacks if you are asking me to stop being a homer.

Jeez my math is terrible.... you are right.  Total apologies!

 

Adjusting my list to 20 years:

Greats of the game:

Brady

Manning

Mahomes (yes, he is a great right now)

Brees

Rodgers

Roethlisberger

E. Manning

(I consider all of these guys top 5 QBs of their generation, so to me they are looked at as "greats".  Understand if others feel differently)

 

MVP/Good QBs with great postseason winners:

Stafford

Wilson

Flacco

 

I have no idea how they won:

Foles

 

Point still remains, you need a top 5 QB to have a chance to win the Super Bowl.  I believe Allen fits that criteria

I’m not joining this argument because it’s already taken place about a dozen times. But you really need to take some basic math classes. 

Burrow has 48 starts vs 82 starts for Josh. Which makes most of the stats you’re hand picking still in favor of Burrow on a per game bases. 
 

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

GOAT

[transient]

He’s averaging a sack every other game over his career, but is averaging 1 per game so far this season. He’s a nice player, but at the end of the day he’s no Bruce Smith. 

[juno999]

50 minutes ago, balln said:

Eye test >>> passing stats

 

joe burrow is a true pocket passer. He can beat you with his mind and arm better than Allen. Burrow can go deep , intermediate and short with much better accuracy , anticipation and clutch play 
 

allen is better w his legs

 

It’s not by much. Sort of like Big Ben (Allen) vs Troy Aikman (burrow). But burrow is better. Dude doesn’t get phased at ALL. No defense spooks him 

 

stop being a homer 

If Burrow played for the Bills, he probably be out of the league now with the OL Allen has had.

[balln]

1 minute ago, juno999 said:

If Burrow played for the Bills, he probably be out of the league now with the OL Allen has had.

Nah. The elite - Mannings / Brady’s make everyone around them “good.” 
 

Ball is out / to the right receiver at the right time 

[John from Riverside]

Josh Allen is a top three QB
 

And how good is he? If you took him away from this team would be drafting top 10 in the lottery

55 minutes ago, balln said:

Eye test >>> passing stats

 

joe burrow is a true pocket passer. He can beat you with his mind and arm better than Allen. Burrow can go deep , intermediate and short with much better accuracy , anticipation and clutch play 
 

allen is better w his legs

 

It’s not by much. Sort of like Big Ben (Allen) vs Troy Aikman (burrow). But burrow is better. Dude doesn’t get phased at ALL. No defense spooks him 

 

stop being a homer 

All borough has to do is take on an injury, and he looks like *****

[Einstein]

I saw this today and couldn’t help but laugh. There is a bit of truth to it.

 

Still, no other QB id rather have. Ride or die with Josh!

 

 

[GETTOTHE50]

Allen is the best QB this league has ever seen and it’s no even close. The only other player of his caliber was Elway imo

[Aussie Joe]

There is no other QB currently playing that I would prefer to JA…

 

But unlike a year ago… I no longer think that he will definitely win a Championship at some stage …. But I’ll keep hoping for the best 

[balln]

5 minutes ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Allen is the best QB this league has ever seen and it’s no even close. The only other player of his caliber was Elway imo

This is ridiculous. The best qb ever? He doesn’t look like Allen did at home vs Cincy in the playoffs 

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

 

The last time I looked, there are defenses in every game trying to stop the offense from scoring.

 

3 hours ago, Araiza Curse said:

I’m done making excuses for Allen. When you compare rosters vs KC. I don’t see that much of an advantage.

 

I've never seen any post of yours ever making an excuse for Allen.   🙄

 

3 hours ago, Araiza Curse said:

We need to start identifying the problems. is it coaching or is it talent? If you guys truly believe that Allen is being held back, then we need to do something about that before he is totally wasted and not wait around. 

 

It sounds like you're advocating some kind of revolution.   Are you and your army of indignant fans going to storm One Bills Drive, take Terry Pegula hostage, and force Beane, McDermott et al to resign?

 

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

Before Mahommes the Chiefs were racking up double digit win seasons with the same cast. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

Before Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a coach who couldn't win "the big one".

 

[Cray51]

26 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I’m not joining this argument because it’s already taken place about a dozen times. But you really need to take some basic math classes. 

Burrow has 48 starts vs 82 starts for Josh. Which makes most of the stats you’re hand picking still in favor of Burrow on a per game bases. 
 

 

I only took stats from the previous two seasons, where both QBs played at least 16 games.

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, BananaB said:

Before Mahommes the Chiefs were racking up double digit win seasons with the same cast. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Yup. They were also getting bounced in the first playoff game all but 1 year and never got closed to making a superbowl much less winning one. Mahomes changed all that from the time he stepped on to the field. 

 

Josh is a great qb and hopefully will take the Bills where they want to be. But we don’t need to diminish the best qb in the league to praise our qb. It’s ok to be 2nd best. 

[balln]

Just now, 90sBills said:

Yup. They were also getting bounced in the first playoff game all but 1 year and never got closed to making a superbowl much less winning one. Mahomes changed all that from the time he stepped on to the field. 

 

Josh is a great qb and hopefully will take the Bills where they want to be. But we don’t need to diminish the best qb in the league to praise our qb. It’s ok to be 2nd best. 

3rd best

[Buffalo Super Fan]

How good is Josh Allen? I have followed the Buffalo Bills since 1975. The three best football players I have ever seen on the Buffalo Bills are in number order. 

1. Josh Allen 

2. O.J. Simpson 

3. Bruce Smith

 

I didn’t grow up watching the 1960’s Buffalo Bills so I can’t rate Cookie Gilchrist and players like that. Josh Allen just on his short body of work is number one and I have been watching the Bills for almost 50 years. Josh Allen is the best Buffalo Bills player. Now Josh Allen isn’t John Tavares of the Buffalo Bandits until he wins a Super Bowl. John Tavares is the best Buffalo player in uniform I ever saw play for a Buffalo sports team college or professionally he won as a player 4 times and once as a coach he is number one for me as a Buffalo sports fan in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

I have to say this is the BEST thread topic ever!

 

#HotTake

#CheersToOP

#KeepThemComing

[Ponch]

6 hours ago, Logic said:

Fair question.

I think that Josh Allen is a no-doubt-about-it top five QB. Probably top 3. 

He is on pace to have a Hall of Fame level career. One championship will make it a no-brainer.

I think that Josh Allen can sometimes be beaten mentally. Certain defenses and defensive coordinators know how to get into his head, make him question what he's seeing, not trust his eyes, and overthink things. We've seen it against the Jets. We've seen it two years in a row against the Jaguars. We saw it against Wink Martindale and the Giants. The Steelers gave him fits the first two times he played them.

Josh Allen's greatest opponent is his own mind. When he's feeling confident, gets into a rhythm, and trusts what he sees, he's nearly unstoppable. That's not hyperbole -- when he's in that zone, he very literally CANNOT be stopped. When he can't get into a rhythm, is lacking in confidence, is not trusting what he's seeing, he becomes his own worst enemy. He starts pressing and overthinking things and the offense grinds to a halt.

So to answer the original question succinctly: Josh Allen is elite, and may go down as one of the greatest of all time. He is not without weaknesses, though, and his primary weakness is the ability of the opposition to beat him mentally via quality defensive scheming and by making him question what he's seeing.

Bravo Mike Schoop... that is your Avatar right? A hairy Mike Schoop. You saved this thread for me ...very well, logical.

[90sBills]

22 minutes ago, balln said:

3rd best

I’m assuming you think Burrow is 2nd? I’d take Allen over Burrow but I could see someone thinking the reverse. 

[Utah John]

7 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Hes the 2nd best QB in football right now.   If he keeps up the numbers he's a hall of famer.  So overall, really good.

Are you sure about the HOF?  Look at how QBs of 20 years ago, and how they're evaluated.  How many SBs did he win?  How many times was he All-Pro?  How many times was he picked for the Pro Bowl?  No one asks about the eye test, how good the guy was, because 20 years from now people will not remember the terrific plays.  With luck, before Josh is done, he'll have checked all those boxes, but there are so many good QBs including the consensus best, Mahomes, he'll struggle to get that done.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Utah John

[Orlando Tim]

Josh is incredibly good, but unfortunately also has games that he loses by himself ala Jets week one. When he is on he is definitely the best ever, if he truly learns not to push ball improperly he will be GOAT by a large margin. To those bashing him he had the greatest two game stretch in playoff history, unfortunately the defense was not up to the task.

[without a drought]

He's no Trent Dilfer.

[juno999]

1 hour ago, balln said:

Nah. The elite - Mannings / Brady’s make everyone around them “good.” 
 

Ball is out / to the right receiver at the right time 

You overestimate Burrow and underestimate Allen.

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

You found the 1 guy that made it without a Superbowl. I only asked the question if that was even possible and apparently there is 1 guy ever. I wouldn't put Josh in that category. Hopefully he has 10 more years to prove me wrong and not 5 more like Cam Newton

Dan Fouts, Kenny Anderson, and Fran Tarkenton also say hello 

[Brand J]

Prior to this season, Burrow was always thought of as having the higher floor (see QB ratings). His lows weren’t as low as Allen and his highs were almost as equal. This season he’s had some real clunkers, so I’m no longer sure. He’s not playing with the same confidence and consistency he’s always been known for, regardless of the reason. 

[without a drought]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Allen is in his 6th season.

 

In Cams 6th season he was already toast. He had 19 TD’s and 14 INT’s that season.

 

Allen is so superior to Cam that i’ve never understood the comparison.

 

.

 

 

Cam's 5th season was really his only good season out of 11. I think people only remember the highlights and injuries.

[LABILLBACKER]

Josh is a HOF caliber qb who's athletically better than Kelly. He's is hardly w/o blame but for the most part he's carried this team for 5 1/2 years. The Bills organization has failed JA the most by not emphasizing the OL.  What the Bills did this offseason to slightly upgrade the OL was not nearly enough.  Our run game is still inconsistent and additional blockers are needed to babysit Spencer.  Josh's shoulder injury was because Dion got beat.  If this organization ever wants to get serious about winning a Lombardi,  it's starts on the OL.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Third in EPA, second in qbr, first in completion percentage, first in fantasy points. Made 3 or 4 throws in that giants second half that no other human can make. 
No doubter first ballot hall of famer even if the bills don’t win a Super Bowl. 

 

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, RG Murdock said:

C'mon. This is nothing but caveat filled word salad. Sadly, anyone with a keyboard can post and waste our time with pointless gibberish. These same generalized comments could apply to Daniel Jones, or Bryce Young. The moderators should have higher standards here.    

 

Huh.