Unleash Josh Allen...stop trying to change him

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

100% agree OP. 

 

Let Allen be Allen. Take all of the good with all of the bad because the good far outweighs the bad. When he is on, he is the best to ever do it as we saw in the 2021 postseason. 

 

But OMG he leads the league in turnovers! And people freak out. Well yeah, he also puts in 40+ TD's every single year! For three straight years and counting. Don't give a rip if my QB has 20 turnovers if he still has a better than 2:1 TD:TO ratio. 

[Solomon Grundy]

54 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

See above.  If so, Josh needs to fix his thinking.

 

Diggs, despite only playing 1 more game than Kelce this year, already has 20 more targets than he does.  Mahomes isn't leaning on Kelce like Josh is Diggs

Maybe because the Chiefs are giving the ball to Pacheco more this season

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

There has to be some happy medium between reckless Josh and tame Josh, and that's what HE needs to find.

 

 

 

 

Not sure he needs to. He was on a roll in 2021. And to start 2022. I don't think he had found that happy medium. He was just balling. 

 

He's a bit of a roller coaster but I believe it's a roller coaster that can get us to a Super Bowl. Not every year, but him playing free consistently is probably the best chance we have of him leading the team to the Super Bowl. 

[Since1981]

The mere threat of his run changes defenses. Why tell our foes what he will or won’t do? (See “war”)

Stupid. Run him a few times early so D play spy and/or open routes. 

[AlfaBill]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

100% agree OP. 

 

Let Allen be Allen. Take all of the good with all of the bad because the good far outweighs the bad. When he is on, he is the best to ever do it as we saw in the 2021 postseason. 

 

But OMG he leads the league in turnovers! And people freak out. Well yeah, he also puts in 40+ TD's every single year! For three straight years and counting. Don't give a rip if my QB has 20 turnovers if he still has a better than 2:1 TD:TO ratio. 

Why does it have to be all or nothing? The goal is to make him better, more effective and efficient. Take the big plays, take the check downs, run when it’s there but slide instead of leaping or trucking someone. If Josh can’t change his game somethings wrong. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Just now, AlfaBill said:

Why does it have to be all or nothing? The goal is to make him better, more effective and efficient. Take the big plays, take the check downs, run when it’s there but slide instead of leaping or trucking someone. If Josh can’t change his game somethings wrong. 

 

For one, he may be incapable of changing without it affecting his game to the point where he is less of a weapon than if he were to just trust his natural instinct. 

 

 I rather him continue to play free which means he gets on those hot streaks where he is the best to ever do it. If he plays at that level enough it is only a matter of time before he strings together three games in the postseason to get us to the Super Bowl. It was a weird set of circumstances and a perfect storm of Mahomes, Kelce, Hill and Reid that prevented that from already happening. 

 

 

[AlfaBill]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

For one, he may be incapable of changing without it affecting his game to the point where he is less of a weapon than if he were to just trust his natural instinct. 

 

 I rather him continue to play free which means he gets on those hot streaks where he is the best to ever do it. If he plays at that level enough it is only a matter of time before he strings together three games in the postseason to get us to the Super Bowl. It was a weird set of circumstances and a perfect storm of Mahomes, Kelce, Hill and Reid that prevented that from already happening. 

 

 

I would disagree. Josh has shown that he is a smart and dedicated athlete who can change his game. I just think they haven’t yet found the correct mix. They went from scorched earth Josh to this version which is too conservative. I’m sure by the playoffs they will have it figured out and ride it to a SB championship 

Edited October 17, 2023 by AlfaBill

[mrags]

8 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

This is how I feel, but I think the coaches  have screwed him up to the point where he now believes his running ability is on par with cement shoes Bledsoe.  

Unfortunately this is likely the case. Old “sleep in separate beds as my wife” conservative McClappy sure ruined the most dangerous weapon in the entire league. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by mrags

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Maybe because the Chiefs are giving the ball to Pacheco more this season

or something 

[Mango]

I posted this in the PGT, but works here.

 

I think that is a super dangerous road to go down. 
 

If Josh not running has “killed this offense”, then that means Allen’s arm/decision making aren’t good enough, and running the ball is the solution. 
 

I love a good mobile QB, but long term success in this league is dictated by being a great passer first, and athlete second. At some point in every mobile QB’s career they either had to figure it out or they flamed out. If Allen is going to do this for a long time at a high level this is something he’ll have to hone in on. 
 

I have been critical on some of the decision making. But I don’t think Allen’s arm is killing the offense either, and I don’t think he’ll flame out.
 

I think talking about how Allen “needs his legs” is way more condemning than talking about him being a better decision maker at times.  

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

He should have tucked it and ran for the 1st then slid

 

Problem is he had a defensive end bearing down on him. I don’t know if he makes it more than a yard or two.

 

Thats why Dawkins was standing there guarding no one.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

Bills need a head coach who is Allen's partner for the rest of Allen's career.  Whether it was/is Bill Walsh, Bill Belichek, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Marv Levy or Andy Reid, this is the best formula for sustained championship level play. The Bills have solved the hard part they have the QB.  Having a head coach who seems proud of not understanding offense (and certainly not responsible or accountable for it) seems to not be the optimal strategy.  A series of OC's who leave because they succeed, or leave because they fail, have one thing in common, they leave is not a substitute.  Its negligence for McDermott to be in his 6th season with Allen, and the team seems to be experimenting on how to use a world class QB.  A change in coaching is no guarantee of success.  The status quo shows no evidence it will ever succeed. 

There are 3 active coaches in the nfl with better win percentages than McDermott; Ried, who he could surpass next weekend, BB, and Lafleur.  What ever Your metric is for success has a hefty challenge… 
 

He’s not going anywhere. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

100% agree OP. 

 

Let Allen be Allen. Take all of the good with all of the bad because the good far outweighs the bad. When he is on, he is the best to ever do it as we saw in the 2021 postseason. 

 

But OMG he leads the league in turnovers! And people freak out. Well yeah, he also puts in 40+ TD's every single year! For three straight years and counting. Don't give a rip if my QB has 20 turnovers if he still has a better than 2:1 TD:TO ratio. 

Good doesn’t outweigh bad- see jets game. 
 

Allen is at his best when he gets the ball out fast in rhythm and distributes around the field, then occasionally makes and absurd play. See Washington Miami and Raiders game. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

46 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Good doesn’t outweigh bad- see jets game. 
 

Allen is at his best when he gets the ball out fast in rhythm and distributes around the field, then occasionally makes and absurd play. See Washington Miami and Raiders game. 

that’s ONE example. Now show us all the other examples from the three years prior. The good does outweigh the bad. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

The post to which I'm responding, you made the statement that the Bills offense was one of the most productive, more productive actually, before Dorsey.

Since you can't pull 2 full years of Dorsey yet, it seems reasonable to look at 2021 (Daboll's last year) and 2022 (Dorsey's first year) and compare - no?

 

Or how else are you comparing, to be able to make that statement, since (again) you don't have 2 full seasons of Dorsey to compare?

 

 

False.  Josh has gotten hurt when he's running.

 

He's also gotten hurt outside the pocket, but  behind the LOS, trying to extend the play.

The comment you are responding to was a follow along of a previous post where I stated the Bills had the highest scoring offense over a 2 year period.  You’re responding to one post in a series of posts with the same poster.  

[John from Riverside]

They’re trying to tame Josh because whenever he’s out of control, he commits a lot of turnovers
 

But I don’t agree with what they’re trying to do with him right now you’re trying to get him to play smart not keep him from using all of his talents

 

Patrick Mahomes does not play out of control. He uses his short game and he allows his targets to get run after catch but whenever all else fails and nobody’s open, Patrick Mahomes will take off.

 

I thought he was more out of control as a quarterback on Sunday, getting into the scrum with the players fighting so that he could find a way to get himself hurt. I know he was sticking up for his players and I respect it but just because you’re 65 in 240 something pounds does it mean that you should be running around playing like you’re a linebacker you’re a quarterback play like a quarterback your team need you to make it to the end of the game

[JoshAllin]

If they limit Josh it's just a matter of time teams start adjusting to this. It's gonna be a struggle like the last 2 games without this huge X-factor of his. I don't see how they can even sniff last years win record anymore

Edited October 17, 2023 by motorj

[Billsfan1972]

Through 6 games Josh has 22 rushes.  He's been neutered.  

 

Comps

Jackson 60

Hurts 63

Fields 47

Jones 38

Mahomes 29

Lawrence 33

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

32 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Through 6 games Josh has 22 rushes.  He's been neutered.  

 

Comps

Jackson 60

Hurts 63

Fields 47

Jones 38

Mahomes 29

Lawrence 33

 

 

he came into giants game with the highest completion percentage in NFL. 
 

maybe Bob barker had a point. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

he came into giants game with the highest completion percentage in NFL. 
 

maybe Bob barker had a point. 

What does that have to do with not running?  Yes he's completing a lot and he is accurate.  The issue is he is barely running and not taking advantage when there are plays there with his feet.

[ddaryl]

Josh does need to master the short game. It is his weakness. This could be Dorsey's X's and O's because I've seen to many times this season where Josh is trying to squeeze a quick pass into a very very narrow window. 

 

That being said he should take the 5 - 8 yds and slide when the play breaks down more often. He just needs to learn to slide and not take the hits

[Thurman#1]

It isn't all about the coaching.

 

Defenses have made changes. They're using those two-high shells better and better. They're doing it not just to Josh and to us, but to all the teams with great QBs. AFC teams in particular have had to understand that learning to play good defense against excellent QBs is going to be required to get to a Super Bowl. 

 

Look at Mahomes. His TD percentage is the lowest it's ever been. His yardage is on pace for his lowest since his second year starting when he only played 14 games. His YPA and AYPA are career lows so far. His QB rating is lowest since his rookie year when he threw 35 passes.

 

Look at Burrow.

 

Look at everyone. An awful lot of this about defenses stepping it up bigtime and forcing QBs, even the best of them, to play differently. They're working hard to take away the big plays and they're doing a damn good job.

[Warriorspikes51]

21 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The most disturbing thing I heard during the game last night was the commentators talk about how Josh talked about how he doesn't make those crazy plays anymore and stuff.  Basically talking about taming down his game.  There has been so much made about his "turnovers" after the Jets game that now Josh is holding back when it comes to the things that makes Josh special.  

 

Josh doesn't just make a wow OMG insane play once in a while, he makes them many times a game be it with his arm or his legs.  But ever since the Jets game where he made a few mistakes, there is this HUGE push to tame Josh and its not just the media, Josh is saying it himself.  But the reality is, those "turnovers" have NOT been the issue for us...Josh being super man has NOT been the issue for us as to WHY we haven't made a Super Bowl yet.  In fact, they have been the ONLY reason we were even in the conversation for one.  

 

2021 - the first season where SB expectations were realistic and high coming off Josh's first breakout year he was INSANE in the playoffs.  Our defense got us bounced when he out dueled Mahomes but the limp defense folded in both 13 seconds and OT.  

 

2022 - the loss to Bengals was a team loss.  Being an air it out offense, we have been known to struggle in the bad weather games offensively because we couldn't run the ball.  The OL was terrible, Bengals dominated the trenches on both sides of the ball, and everyone had a bad game.  We didn't lose because of Josh "trying to be Superman"...this team just got its a** kicked in every facet of the game.  

 

So why are we trying to tame Josh?  Many times a game we extend drives or score because Josh did something unbelievable.  I am all for getting Josh to take what the defense gives him, look for quick strikes, etc.  But at the same time, this narrative that he needs to be tamed some is IMHO wrong.  He just isn't looking to make the big plays with his legs as much now or make those tougher throws as much.  There have now been many times this year, including games we lost, there were moments it looked like he could have run and made the big play with his legs but pulled up and tried to throw it instead or waited so long to try and throw it that the run opportunity closed and he got just a few yards instead.  

 

Not only is it affecting him making plays with his legs, but the hesitation from Josh trying to hold his instincts back seems to also keep him from seeing other opportunities now he normally would take.  Before, when Josh was buying time I feel like everything was an option.  Now, when he gets away from pressure it feels like he is locking on to an area where the safest throw should be and doesn't see guys wide open in other areas of the field he would normally fire a ball too in those moments.  

 

Coming into 2023, Mahomes only had 4 less INTs and Burrow only had 3 less INTs over the past 2 seasons.  And Mahomes has had more weapons in that time and a much better OL while Burrow has had substantially better weapons...not to mention Josh played half a season with a hurt throwing elbow and plays in worse weather.  But he doesn't really have that many more INTs than those guys despite the personnel advantages they have over Josh.  

 

So this need to try and tame Josh needs to go away IMHO, let him ball like his instincts know because we win A LOT more games than we lose because of it.  And its that Josh that this team needs, especially with the issues we already have with Dorsey.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

 

This might be my favorite ever thread on here.  Great job! 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

that’s ONE example. Now show us all the other examples from the three years prior. The good does outweigh the bad. 

 

 

I hear you.

 

But again, when Josh was having those sensational years, two or three other (great) QBs were too. Defenses were bamboozled. That's not happening nearly as much this year. 

 

So far, this looks like a bit of a sea change rather than just one QB having a bit of a down year because he's changing tactics.

[GaryPinC]

21 hours ago, Herc11 said:

 

Josh being Josh got them to the AFC championship game and divisional, which they should have won. The problem with taking that element out of his game is when a defense has the offense shut down, he doesn't have that tool in his tool box anymore to create a spark.

 

I'm not saying he can't evolve into a more traditional passer. I'm saying don't take away what makes him, him. Do you see Andy Reid trying to make Mahomes a traditional passer? No. He lets Pat be Pat and takes advantage of his unique play set.

In 2021.  How'd he do in 2020, his overall statistical best year?  How was his QBR vs KC in the playoffs that year?  How was it last year?  2019?  You're only seeing part of a picture here.

 

I've never seen McD profess wanting to limit players' individuality.  In fact, he respects and encourages it when he discusses with the press.  With JA, McD says he needs to play smart and smarter.  Avoid hits at the end of scrambles in the middle of a game.  Stop hurdling players and risking injury for a semi-meaningless first down against an opponent we're beating.  Stop making unnecessarily stupid passes downfield when an outlet pass with YAC is available.

 

Josh needs to grow up, be in better control of himself and know when and what situation to pull out hero Josh.  And Josh is finally realizing and developing it for himself.  It's unfortunate so many fans can't appreciate that.

[jkeerie]

I'm watching One Bills Live and Dan Orlovsky just said the Bills should be working on screens.  We all know the Bills have not been successful at those.  Tasker attributes that to the way defenses play closer to the line because of Josh's running ability.  Maybe since defenses have changed with Josh running less, a screen game might work.

[GaryPinC]

15 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

that’s ONE example. Now show us all the other examples from the three years prior. The good does outweigh the bad. 

We're talking winning a super  bowl, not some line up good vs bad from the season and go with it. 

 

Josh needs to diversify, not become some tame, lame backup quarterback and not be old 100% gunslinger Josh whose habits have gotten figured out.  That's how we win a super bowl, a uber-talented QB with a diverse approach to keep the best defenses off balance in the playoffs while being maximally effective for himself and the talent around him.

[AlfaBill]

22 hours ago, mrags said:

Unfortunately this is likely the case. Old “sleep in separate beds as my wife” conservative McClappy sure ruined the most dangerous weapon in the entire league. 

Women weaken legs. 

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

It isn't all about the coaching.

 

Defenses have made changes. They're using those two-high shells better and better. They're doing it not just to Josh and to us, but to all the teams with great QBs. AFC teams in particular have had to understand that learning to play good defense against excellent QBs is going to be required to get to a Super Bowl. 

 

Look at Mahomes. His TD percentage is the lowest it's ever been. His yardage is on pace for his lowest since his second year starting when he only played 14 games. His YPA and AYPA are career lows so far. His QB rating is lowest since his rookie year when he threw 35 passes.

 

Look at Burrow.

 

Look at everyone. An awful lot of this about defenses stepping it up bigtime and forcing QBs, even the best of them, to play differently. They're working hard to take away the big plays and they're doing a damn good job.

Nah. Josh sucks. The coaches suck. The Bills suck. That sounds much better. 

[machine gun kelly]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:32 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This is much more the issue than any changing of Josh or anything of that nature. Teams have reverted the past two weeks to double Diggs and man up the rest. The Bills don't have an answer at the moment because the other guys are not winning their assignments.

Exactly GB.  I do think if this play is going. Nowhere, the option for Josh to take off is on the mark.

[strive_for_five_guy]

https://x.com/danfetes/status/1714693576842494057?s=20
 

Just saw this tonight.  Von is on record saying that Josh should not be tamed 👍

[Scott7975]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:03 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

See above.  If so, Josh needs to fix his thinking.

 

Diggs, despite only playing 1 more game than Kelce this year, already has 20 more targets than he does.  Mahomes isn't leaning on Kelce like Josh is Diggs

 

Kelce is 34 years old and has been playing gimpy most of the season.  Kelce had 110 targets last season.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Kelce is 34 years old and has been playing gimpy most of the season.  Kelce had 110 targets last season.

That’s why I said: “Mahomes isn't leaning on Kelce like Josh is Diggs”

[Alphadawg7]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:05 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

The most disturbing thing I heard during the game last night was the commentators talk about how Josh talked about how he doesn't make those crazy plays anymore and stuff.  Basically talking about taming down his game.  There has been so much made about his "turnovers" after the Jets game that now Josh is holding back when it comes to the things that makes Josh special.  

 

Josh doesn't just make a wow OMG insane play once in a while, he makes them many times a game be it with his arm or his legs.  But ever since the Jets game where he made a few mistakes, there is this HUGE push to tame Josh and its not just the media, Josh is saying it himself.  But the reality is, those "turnovers" have NOT been the issue for us...Josh being super man has NOT been the issue for us as to WHY we haven't made a Super Bowl yet.  In fact, they have been the ONLY reason we were even in the conversation for one.  

 

2021 - the first season where SB expectations were realistic and high coming off Josh's first breakout year he was INSANE in the playoffs.  Our defense got us bounced when he out dueled Mahomes but the limp defense folded in both 13 seconds and OT.  

 

2022 - the loss to Bengals was a team loss.  Being an air it out offense, we have been known to struggle in the bad weather games offensively because we couldn't run the ball.  The OL was terrible, Bengals dominated the trenches on both sides of the ball, and everyone had a bad game.  We didn't lose because of Josh "trying to be Superman"...this team just got its a** kicked in every facet of the game.  

 

So why are we trying to tame Josh?  Many times a game we extend drives or score because Josh did something unbelievable.  I am all for getting Josh to take what the defense gives him, look for quick strikes, etc.  But at the same time, this narrative that he needs to be tamed some is IMHO wrong.  He just isn't looking to make the big plays with his legs as much now or make those tougher throws as much.  There have now been many times this year, including games we lost, there were moments it looked like he could have run and made the big play with his legs but pulled up and tried to throw it instead or waited so long to try and throw it that the run opportunity closed and he got just a few yards instead.  

 

Not only is it affecting him making plays with his legs, but the hesitation from Josh trying to hold his instincts back seems to also keep him from seeing other opportunities now he normally would take.  Before, when Josh was buying time I feel like everything was an option.  Now, when he gets away from pressure it feels like he is locking on to an area where the safest throw should be and doesn't see guys wide open in other areas of the field he would normally fire a ball too in those moments.  

 

Coming into 2023, Mahomes only had 4 less INTs and Burrow only had 3 less INTs over the past 2 seasons.  And Mahomes has had more weapons in that time and a much better OL while Burrow has had substantially better weapons...not to mention Josh played half a season with a hurt throwing elbow and plays in worse weather.  But he doesn't really have that many more INTs than those guys despite the personnel advantages they have over Josh.  

 

So this need to try and tame Josh needs to go away IMHO, let him ball like his instincts know because we win A LOT more games than we lose because of it.  And its that Josh that this team needs, especially with the issues we already have with Dorsey.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

Bump.

 

Like I was saying above…

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Josh needed to run less but not this much less.

 

he definitely has overcompensated since the jets game .

 

he definitely has lost a lot of his specialness

 

 

On 10/16/2023 at 1:08 PM, Einstein said:

We need some WR's that can separate.

Look at this play - Diggs is double covered and not a single other receiving option can get seperation.

 

 

 

 

time to give Isabella a crack after Thursday night.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Josh needed to run less but not this much less.

 

he definitely has overcompensated since the jets game .

 

he definitely has lost a lot of his specialness

 

 

What we needed was less DESIGNED runs where they ran Allen like a FB up the middle of the D off the snap.  
 

What we always needed, and desperately need back, is Josh taking off with his legs when he wasn’t seeing what he wanted down field.  And in those moments we needed Josh to get down once he made the play rather than take big hits fighting for a couple extra yards.  
 

Also, those runs and hits always fire Josh up, in fact, that’s when Josh is the most fired up if you go back and watch highlights.  He feeds off that and without it’s like there is this extra gear missing from his game now.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

What we needed was less DESIGNED runs where they ran Allen like a FB up the middle of the D off the snap.  
 

What we always needed, and desperately need back, is Josh taking off with his legs when he wasn’t seeing what he wanted down field.  And in those moments we needed Josh to get down once he made the play rather than take big hits fighting for a couple extra yards.  
 

Also, those runs and hits always fire Josh up, in fact, that’s when Josh is the most fired up if you go back and watch highlights.  He feeds off that and without it’s like there is this extra gear missing from his game now.

 

i agree but still like the designed runs that got him out in space.

 

he took that dumb hit during the jets game blamed ALL of his poor play for that game on that and running too much.

 

maybe they are saving it for the playoffs but i doubt it.

 

he also injured his shoulder , like a knucklehead, last week defending Spencer Brown. At least use your left shoulder.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

i agree but still like the designed runs that got him out in space.

 

he took that dumb hit during the jets game blamed ALL of his poor play for that game on that and running too much.

 

maybe they are saving it for the playoffs but i doubt it.

 

he also injured his shoulder , like a knucklehead, last week defending Spencer Brown. At least use your left shoulder.

 

 

Agree on the ones out in space, good point on that.