Elite Slot WR Kincaid.

[newcam2012]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It does not mean anything. You're right, I can dismiss it. Anyone with triple digit functioning brain cells should.

 

He has been here five games. That's all that needs to be said. The fact that you don't understand this is really sad. 

 

Again, he has out-produced Tony Gonzalez in Tony's first five games. That's because the first five games, if not very good, mean absolutely nothing. With this record of production, he could have a terrible career, a Hall of Fame career, or absolutely anything in between.

 

And yeah, Moss does look good. He was never going to be used as a bell cow, the way that he apparently needs to be used. Remind me, did Moss look great when Daboll was here? Blaming Dorsey for something that as yet means absolutely nothing is just dumb.

The point is the Bills don't know how to adequately use their running backs. Moss is a good example of that. Last year Cook and Hines caught like 20 passes the whole year. The screen game is non existent for years. 

 

Now they have 3 capable RBs and it's pretty much inconsistent and not reliable. I feel like the Bills should go back and let Josh use his legs more and use more RPOs. That adds another dimension to the offense. Not one opposing team is fearful and game plans for any of the Bills RBs. They surely would prepare if Allen starts running again. 

[Billsatlastin2018]

20 hours ago, blacklabel said:

Cripes. Another week's worth of these kinda threads. 

Well, 

 

If the OC can’t find his ass with both hands, this is exactly what you’re going to get! You have a talent… finally at TE… and you can’t hear his ***** name announced during the game!

[Roundybout]

Jeremy White nailed it this morning. 

 

Knox's average yards per route has dropped from 14-15 to about 7. Kincaid had 13.2 in college and currently has 6.9. 

 

I don't know how you can defend Dorsey at this point. He has no clue what he's doing and is actively harming our talent. Period. 

[90sBills]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, there absolutely is.

 

We're five games in. We still don't have any idea what he is. 

 

This is a dumb thread. If it had been a couple of years it would have made some sense.

 

Frickin' Tony Gonzalez put up fewer yards in his first five games than Kincaid has, and equalled Kincaid's zero TDs. Am I saying Kincaid is Gonzalez? No, though some feeb would probably accuse me of doing so if I hadn't put this sentence in. I'm saying the first five weeks mean squat.

 

 

Gonzalez was in THE Martyball offense his first few years. Not really the same. That doesn’t mean Kincaid won’t be a good player eventually. Just a bad comparison in this case. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

Could be game plan specific. Could be that he's just not earning the trust of QB1 and the coaches. But it seems that Kincaid was giving opportunity and is seeing his workload lightened. He's still a huge work in progress.

[Tulsabillsfanz]

Knox has 19 targets and 11 receptions.

Kincaid has 19 targets and 17 receptions.

 

Eventually Dorsey and Josh will figure out which TE has better hands and will be more reliable to catch passes on 3rd & 4th down. 

[HappyDays]

From Joe Buscaglia's Athletic article today:

 

Quote

The Kincaid participation is great, but the usage is confounding

 

After showing every sign through training camp and the preseason that Dalton Kincaid would be a humongous piece of the offense, the Bills followed through by putting their 2023 first-round pick on the field nearly 60 percent of all offensive snaps so far. He has more total snaps (199) than Trent Sherfield and Deonte Harty combined (185) through five games, encapsulating what they had in mind when they selected Kincaid in April. Kincaid has also run a route on 65 percent of his snaps. All of that is trending positively, but his implementation as a piece of the offense has been confusing at best.

 

In five games, Kincaid’s average air yards per target has been just 3.26 yards down the field, which is shockingly low. Some have equated Kincaid’s usage to effectively inheriting the role of former Bills slot receiver Cole Beasley, but even that isn’t accurate. It’s been far worse. Since 2019, looking at all Bills skill players who have run at least 100 routes in a season, Kincaid ranks 32nd out of 42 qualifying in average air yards per target, according to TruMedia. He ranks ahead of only running backs James Cook (33rd and 34th), Zack Moss (35th and 39th), Devin Singletary (36th, 37th, 41st and 42nd), Frank Gore (38th) and T.J. Yeldon (40th).

 

Kincaid is a full yard below the next closest wide receiver or tight end over that time, which was the jet sweep and push pass extraordinaire Isaiah McKenzie in 2019 (4.33 air yards per target) and 2020 (4.38). In Beasley’s worst two seasons, 2021 and 2022, he still averaged 5.63 and 7.00 air yards per target, well ahead of Kincaid’s early mark of 3.26. It’s the team’s likely attempt to get the ball in Kincaid’s hands, but it’s cutting out his zone-busting strengths in the intermediate areas by not looking his way for the most part unless it’s close to the line of scrimmage. The Bills can unlock their offense even more by unleashing Kincaid over the intermediate-to-deep middle, and it strikes me as one of the top things offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey must change as the season wears on — especially if they get into some shootouts against good teams in the regular season and playoffs.

 

This lines up with what I've been seeing. We are almost exclusively using him as a checkdown option near the LOS. Like Joe says this is going to need to change if our offense needs to pick up the slack for a defense missing some of its best players.

[Drew21PA]

Knew this was going to happen

 

300-400 I predicted May be a stretch now

 

theu will only utilize Diggs and it’s obvious 

 

even Gabe is lacking targets

 

idk what is going on but I hope it gets fixed becuase with the defense now it’s going to take a lot of points to win games 

[The Red King]

First, five games is too soon to judge.  Remember how Josh looked after five games?

 

Second, Kincaid can't just invent his own routes.  He's stuck with what Dorsey calls.  You can't complain that a T-Bird hasn't been impressive if you only drive it 35 MPH through residential areas.  That car is meant for the open highway.

 

The problem is Dorsey.

[Warcodered]

 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

LMAO. No wonder the Dolphins lost. Double teaming a guy with 100 yards on the season. What a defensive gameplan

[NickelCity]

I don't think Dorsey is among the very worst in the league, but there is ample room for improvement. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:38 AM, Roundybout said:

Jeremy White nailed it this morning. 

 

Knox's average yards per route has dropped from 14-15 to about 7. Kincaid had 13.2 in college and currently has 6.9. 

 

I don't know how you can defend Dorsey at this point. He has no clue what he's doing and is actively harming our talent. Period. 

They are chipping a ton because Spencer brown is terrible…can’t run as deep routes with tight ends that way.  Vs the jags Spencer brown and Dawkins were both terrible which is why the offense looked especially rough. Tough to help out the RT and the LT at the same time.   Josh balled out considering 

 

if our tight ends were just free releasing down the seam josh would be getting bludgeoned every down.  You need time to hit those long developing routes y’all are looking for

Edited October 11, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Chaos]

I was a huge fan of the Kincaid pick.  I preferred him over Mayer or LaPorta.  But one thing I notice watching those three players is that Mayer and LaPorta look much bigger and stronger than Kincaid.  I was hoping Kincaid would be a combination high end slot reciever/ high end tight end. But watching him against NFL talent,  I am a bit concerned that Kincaid is a "tweener" talent not quite fast and elusive enough to be an effective NFL slot and not quite big strong enough to be a high end tight end. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Chaos

[Warriorspikes51]

51 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I was a huge fan of the Kincaid pick.  I preferred him over Mayer or LaPorta.  But one thing I notice watching those three players is that Mayer and LaPorta look much bigger and stronger than Kincaid.  I was hoping Kincaid would be a combination high end slot reciever/ high end tight end. But watching him against NFL talent,  I am a bit concerned that Kincaid is a "tweener" talent not quite fast and elusive enough to be an effective NFL slot and not quite big strong enough to be a high end tight end. 

 

Kincaid at least early in the season was playing very physical and finishing plays when he had the ball.

I do not understand why the coaching staff hasn't utilized him much more in the intermediate section

 

could be that Josh doesn't trust him yet. But all of his receptions are around 5 yards

On 10/9/2023 at 10:38 AM, Roundybout said:

Jeremy White nailed it this morning. 

 

Knox's average yards per route has dropped from 14-15 to about 7. Kincaid had 13.2 in college and currently has 6.9. 

 

I don't know how you can defend Dorsey at this point. He has no clue what he's doing and is actively harming our talent. Period. 

It seems like we're mainly using 2TE sets to help the OLine....which is disappointing to say the least.
 

Kincaid needs to have a 70% snap share each week and he needs to be used in the slot, and even moved outside 

Get him the ball 10-20 yards downfield. Not 5 on curl routes along the sideline. 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

He needs to have a game of 10 receptions for 150 and a TD or 2

He is capable of it......

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

I was a huge fan of the Kincaid pick.  I preferred him over Mayer or LaPorta.  But one thing I notice watching those three players is that Mayer and LaPorta look much bigger and stronger than Kincaid.  I was hoping Kincaid would be a combination high end slot reciever/ high end tight end. But watching him against NFL talent,  I am a bit concerned that Kincaid is a "tweener" talent not quite fast and elusive enough to be an effective NFL slot and not quite big strong enough to be a high end tight end. 

Gesicki lite

21 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

Kincaid at least early in the season was playing very physical and finishing plays when he had the ball.

I do not understand why the coaching staff hasn't utilized him much more in the intermediate section

 

could be that Josh doesn't trust him yet. But all of his receptions are around 5 yards

It seems like we're mainly using 2TE sets to help the OLine....which is disappointing to say the least.
 

Kincaid needs to have a 70% snap share each week and he needs to be used in the slot, and even moved outside 

Get him the ball 10-20 yards downfield. Not 5 on curl routes along the sideline. 

 

Kincaid lines up in the slot more than he does along the LOS

[BillsFan692]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:58 PM, Bferra13 said:

He had me a bit on the wagon last week. I completely fell off now. He lost this game. Throw the effing ball you jackwagon. No need to establish the run against this front 7. Funny thing is, I think the first play of the game was for 6 up the middle. Best of the day. Pathetic 

THIS!!!!! 

They blitzed josh a LOT in this game this would have been the game to be passing and carving it up even taking those deep shots josh loves so much. Instead they played them like they were in a 2 high shell all game, until late in the game anyways.

This is on the OC man he has to recognize what the other team is doing and make the adjustments especially in the 3rd Q

Edited October 11, 2023 by BillsFan692

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

I was a huge fan of the Kincaid pick.  I preferred him over Mayer or LaPorta.  But one thing I notice watching those three players is that Mayer and LaPorta look much bigger and stronger than Kincaid.  I was hoping Kincaid would be a combination high end slot reciever/ high end tight end. But watching him against NFL talent,  I am a bit concerned that Kincaid is a "tweener" talent not quite fast and elusive enough to be an effective NFL slot and not quite big strong enough to be a high end tight end. 

If we go back to our Draft options, I think this is why many people wanted a WR.

 

Zay Flowers stood out to me as the best, then JSN, Quentin Johnston and Jordan Addison I wanted last.

 

But the main concern with Tight End was Allen hasn’t shown that he throws to Tight End. The statistics all said he wants to throw to WR. And we already have paid a Tight End $10M a year. 
 

I wanted Mayer the most a Tight End because I thought he was built like the Hulk and was consistent game after game in college, and was balanced pass catching/blocking, something the Bills would have appreciated. 
 

Joe Marino says he thinks it will get going as the season goes along and I don’t think Dorsey has shown that he evolves in-season. You get put into a role and you don’t escape it. 
 

Kincaid doesn’t look to have high end play speed, he looks 4.7, and it’s what Allen says, he finds pockets and zones really well. 

[McBean]

On 10/8/2023 at 12:51 PM, FireChans said:

All off-season we heard about the 12 personnel, the mismatch splitting out wide, his hands, how open he could get etc etc.

 

Hell, there were threads giving this dope a nickname. 
 

Any reason to think Kincaid isn’t a better version of Tommy Sweeney in this offense so far?

if we hired Ben Johnson, I promise you that would change.

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If we go back to our Draft options, I think this is why many people wanted a WR.

 

Zay Flowers stood out to me as the best, then JSN, Quentin Johnston and Jordan Addison I wanted last.

 

But the main concern with Tight End was Allen hasn’t shown that he throws to Tight End. The statistics all said he wants to throw to WR. And we already have paid a Tight End $10M a year. 
 

I wanted Mayer the most a Tight End because I thought he was built like the Hulk and was consistent game after game in college, and was balanced pass catching/blocking, something the Bills would have appreciated. 
 

Joe Marino says he thinks it will get going as the season goes along and I don’t think Dorsey has shown that he evolves in-season. You get put into a role and you don’t escape it. 
 

Kincaid doesn’t look to have high end play speed, he looks 4.7, and it’s what Allen says, he finds pockets and zones really well. 

He looks 4.7 lol 🤣 

 

Mayer looking like a stud so far.  3 catches- 51% of the snaps

Edited October 11, 2023 by NewEra

[Straight Hucklebuck]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He looks 4.7 lol 🤣 

 

Mayer looking like a stud so far.  3 catches- 51% of the snaps

That’s why I put out there exactly what I said.

 

I don’t hide if I’m wrong. 
 

Mayer looked like a balanced, old school Tight End with 3 consistent years of production at a large school.

 

And yes, Kincaid so far, hasn’t shown one example of high end athleticism on his 17 catches. He catches the ball and generally falls down. 
 

Hard to do when it’s all dump offs, but does anyone have faith that Dorsey will start motioning Kincaid, put him in the backfield, line him up outside? It’s a first round pick that they’re content to sit underneath and catch dump offs and Dorsey calls it “growing” when he talks to the media. 

[Don Otreply]

Kincaid is not being used to best advantages, why this is, is anyones guess, but I have my suspicions…, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, BillsFan692 said:

THIS!!!!! 

They blitzed josh a LOT in this game this would have been the game to be passing and carving it up even taking those deep shots josh loves so much. Instead they played them like they were in a 2 high shell all game, until late in the game anyways.

This is on the OC man he has to recognize what the other team is doing and make the adjustments especially in the 3rd Q

What?  The jags were using a ton of simulated pressure to get free rushers blitzing josh and your answer is to hold the ball longer? Lol that is entirely the opposite of what you should do.  What you are describing is when the defense blitzes and your offensive line can actually slow it down or pick it up which they very much couldn’t.  

 

this is just what I don’t understand about the negative posters after that game.  We were throughly dominated in the trenches for the first time all season and absolutely need to clean that up, but people wanted deeper routes and less help sent the offensive lines way? I can’t wrap my head around it.  You’re playing to win not playing to rack up stats for your rookie tight end so you can feel good about drafting him 😂

 

silver lining of this one is that’s the best josh has ever looked by a long shot when his offensive line forgets how to play football.  I’d liken that to the  bengals playoff game with how dominated the oline was and he played significantly better with taking the underneath stuff when he had to and taking the deep shot when it was warranted 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

That’s why I put out there exactly what I said.

 

I don’t hide if I’m wrong. 
 

Mayer looked like a balanced, old school Tight End with 3 consistent years of production at a large school.

 

And yes, Kincaid so far, hasn’t shown one example of high end athleticism on his 17 catches. He catches the ball and generally falls down. 
 

Hard to do when it’s all dump offs, but does anyone have faith that Dorsey will start motioning Kincaid, put him in the backfield, line him up outside? It’s a first round pick that they’re content to sit underneath and catch dump offs and Dorsey calls it “growing” when he talks to the media. 

He falls down…..

 

🤣 

[BillsFan692]

45 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

What?  The jags were using a ton of simulated pressure to get free rushers blitzing josh and your answer is to hold the ball longer? Lol that is entirely the opposite of what you should do.  What you are describing is when the defense blitzes and your offensive line can actually slow it down or pick it up which they very much couldn’t.  

 

this is just what I don’t understand about the negative posters after that game.  We were throughly dominated in the trenches for the first time all season and absolutely need to clean that up, but people wanted deeper routes and less help sent the offensive lines way? I can’t wrap my head around it.  You’re playing to win not playing to rack up stats for your rookie tight end so you can feel good about drafting him 😂

 

silver lining of this one is that’s the best josh has ever looked by a long shot when his offensive line forgets how to play football.  I’d liken that to the  bengals playoff game with how dominated the oline was and he played significantly better with taking the underneath stuff when he had to and taking the deep shot when it was warranted 

I mean you usually have some blitz beaters dialed up over the middle or up the seam -- yes you can beat blitz's deep didn't Lawrence do exactly that on the 40 yard dime to ridley in single coverage against hyde?

To be honest I am still mad about the intercepted ball out of diggs hands but we needed more of that and we didn't get it until late in the game.

Edited October 11, 2023 by BillsFan692

[Billl]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He falls down…..

 

🤣

There's some hyperbole there, but he did have a really bad play to stall the second drive of the game.  On third and 5, he caught a ball short of the sticks and ran towards the marker at the sideline.  Instead of taking on the defender (190 pound CB Tre Herndon) and pushing through him for a first down, he allowed himself to get pushed out of bounds a yard short.  It looked like an easy first down when he caught it, but he allowed himself to get easily pushed out by a guy giving up 50 pounds.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He falls down…..

 

🤣

Show me the clip where he makes something happen after the catch. 

Also, I said, hard to do when your route tree is: dump off option. This is on Dorsey. 

[wppete]

How many dropped balls has Knox had this year so far? Why throw to him and not Kincaid who arguably has the best hands on the team? 

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, Billl said:

There's some hyperbole there, but he did have a really bad play to stall the second drive of the game.  On third and 5, he caught a ball short of the sticks and ran towards the marker at the sideline.  Instead of taking on the defender (190 pound CB Tre Herndon) and pushing through him for a first down, he allowed himself to get pushed out of bounds a yard short.  It looked like an easy first down when he caught it, but he allowed himself to get easily pushed out by a guy giving up 50 pounds.

Yeah….he falls down….. 🤣 

6 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Show me the clip where he makes something happen after the catch. 

Also, I said, hard to do when your route tree is: dump off option. This is on Dorsey. 

I’m not going to waste any more of my time on this ridiculous troll thread.  

[Logic]

Troll post.

I'd say "don't feed the trolls", but it's clear that people have already done so for eight pages now.

The thesis statement "Dalton Kincaid is not providing the production many of you thought he might thus far this season", and then there's...whatever it is that you posted.

There are ways to inspire genuine and productive discussion, and then there are ways to instigate arguments and outrage and be a troll. Guess which one of these routes you took? 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Logic

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Troll post.

I'd say "don't feed the trolls", but it's clear that people have already done so for eight pages now.

The thesis statement "Dalton Kincaid is not providing the production many of you thought he might thus far this season", and then there's...whatever it is that you posted.

There are ways to inspire genuine and productive discussion, and then there are ways to instigate arguments and outrage and be a troll. Guess which one of these routes you took? 

 

There is no actual merit to any discussion about Kincaid? It's just a bunch of troll fans like me? 

So this is exactly what it is supposed to look like? 

 

Put it this way, Joe Marino of Locked on Bills said yesterday that he envisions "Dalton Kincaid being the second option in 2024"  - all Bills fans are ok with that? 

 

 

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yeah….he falls down….. 🤣 

I’m not going to waste any more of my time on this ridiculous troll thread.  

There is no clip where he does anything. 

 

He catches the ball reliably, then gets tackled/falls down. 

 

Average depth of target is 3.26 yards. 

 

Not sure how to spin that more positive for anyone. 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[JMM]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

There's some hyperbole there, but he did have a really bad play to stall the second drive of the game.  On third and 5, he caught a ball short of the sticks and ran towards the marker at the sideline.  Instead of taking on the defender (190 pound CB Tre Herndon) and pushing through him for a first down, he allowed himself to get pushed out of bounds a yard short.  It looked like an easy first down when he caught it, but he allowed himself to get easily pushed out by a guy giving up 50 pounds.

Yea I agree on that one play, it was very strange he didn't turn up the field there. But all in all the talent is THERE. They are bringing him along maddeningly slowly and clearly not using his skill set effectively yet. Let this kid get vertical!

[Logic]

13 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There is no actual merit to any discussion about Kincaid? It's just a bunch of troll fans like me? 

So this is exactly what it is supposed to look like? 

 

Put it this way, Joe Marino of Locked on Bills said yesterday that he envisions "Dalton Kincaid being the second option in 2024"  - all Bills fans are ok with that? 

 

Did you actually read my whole post? Because the sentences you quoted directly address your question. 

Here. Let me re-post it:

"There's the thesis statement 'Dalton Kincaid is not providing the production many of you thought he might thus far this season', and then there's...whatever it is that you posted.

There are ways to inspire genuine and productive discussion, and then there are ways to instigate arguments and outrage and be a troll. Guess which one of these routes you took?"

My issue is not with the topic itself, which I agree merits discussion. It was with the topic title "Elite slot WR Kincaid", which goes on to call the player a "dope" and refer to him as "a better version of Tommy Sweeney".

The topic is fine. The post was a troll job.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Logic

[ngbills]

Elite - Pump the breaks. Been saying it for a long time now. That does not mean he will not be good, but I dont see the "Elite" natural abilities. He is more of a smart player that will get better as he adjusts to the game. People exaggerated his pre-season catches (All 3 of them) to show that had elite skills that no one else has. He is not faster, bigger, stronger, etc than anyone. He has the tools to be a very good player in time when he learns the NFL game and gains the trust of his QB. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Troll post.

I'd say "don't feed the trolls", but it's clear that people have already done so for eight pages now.

The thesis statement "Dalton Kincaid is not providing the production many of you thought he might thus far this season", and then there's...whatever it is that you posted.

There are ways to inspire genuine and productive discussion, and then there are ways to instigate arguments and outrage and be a troll. Guess which one of these routes you took? 

 

The reason why my threads are so popular is my flair and mastery of the English language. There’s been lots of good discussion in this thread. Haters gonna hate, slaters gonna slate. 

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

There's some hyperbole there, but he did have a really bad play to stall the second drive of the game.  On third and 5, he caught a ball short of the sticks and ran towards the marker at the sideline.  Instead of taking on the defender (190 pound CB Tre Herndon) and pushing through him for a first down, he allowed himself to get pushed out of bounds a yard short.  It looked like an easy first down when he caught it, but he allowed himself to get easily pushed out by a guy giving up 50 pounds.

Rookie mistake geesh

[Westside]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Show me the clip where he makes something happen after the catch. 

Also, I said, hard to do when your route tree is: dump off option. This is on Dorsey. 

Dorkey sucks as a OC.

[KDIGGZ]

I forgot Kincaid played on this team. I like how the Bills have 2 average TE's instead of just 1 good WR. That's fun.

 

Everyone is like let's get another good WR like Hopkins and Beane is like how about instead we give you another position that can catch like a RB or a slightly more athletic TE? What's next? Are we going to draft the Tackle eligible with the best hands? Exciting stuff!

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by KDIGGZ

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, KDIGGZ said:

I forgot Kincaid played on this team. Good thing Shakira gets more targets because ???

because he doesn't? 🤔

 

I mean last time I checked 19 was bigger than 4.