Frazier and/or his System hurt player development

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

🙄

[Since1981]

McD adds an element this year of uncertainty that we didn’t see with Frazier. In 2022, you can’t just line up and not use some form of uncertainty

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Weird…but whatever…

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, MPT said:

 

Fangio doesn't have the luxury of all pros at nearly every position either. Holland is about the only player in the secondary worth accounting for.

They have 0 coverage linebackers too…the dolphins really built their defense completely backwards as far as matching up with buffalo goes it’s really bizarre.  They’re loaded up with good pass rushers but josh buys himself enough time to pick on their dbs/linebackers even when his OL is bad but they seem pretty good this year which makes it worse for Miami 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bferra13]

Frazier + Edmonds = no bueno. Addition by subtraction.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, whorlnut said:

Weird…but whatever…

Let's just make pointless responses that aren't on subject all night and our post counts will be amazing!

[streetkings01]

Frazier’s defense only worked on offenses with below average QBs or Lamar Jackson lol

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Frazier was a very good coordinator.

 

McDermott is simply better.

likely true. 
 

that said, Frazier had great games and months too. It’ll be interesting to see McD settle on long term as he puts tendencies back on tape.

 

my suspicion is very good still but maybe some more ups and downs like any coordinator has

[TheBrownBear]

Or maybe Frazier developed these guys and McDermott is now reaping the benefits?

 

Just saying - we consistently had a top-3 defense under Frazier.  I'm not about to sh*t on the dude, because McD has had a nice four game run.  

[RunTheBall]

Stop with the “McD should have fired Frazier” revisionist history. I am VERY happy Frazier is gone and McD is calling the plays now, you can see the difference. But, it’s ridiculous to think that McBeane was going to get rid of a very highly respected defensive coach who was fielding a top 4 D every season. McBeane are not that type of ruthless guys, they are loyal to a fault but that has more positives than negatives in the locker room and on the recruitment trail. 

 

Besides Frazier being gone, the loss of Edmunds right now looks like addition by subtraction. 90% of this board were killing McBeane about the MLB position and Bernard has been a revelation. Our coaches saw that, most of us did not. Some of you guys who have been bashing this coaching staff non stop since 13 seconds need to STFU and appreciate that players, coaches and GMs can and do get better within a culture of growth which McD has fostered since day 1 and has always preached.

 

[Meatloaf63]

4 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

Stop with the “McD should have fired Frazier” revisionist history. I am VERY happy Frazier is gone and McD is calling the plays now, you can see the difference. But, it’s ridiculous to think that McBeane was going to get rid of a very highly respected defensive coach who was fielding a top 4 D every season. McBeane are not that type of ruthless guys, they are loyal to a fault but that has more positives than negatives in the locker room and on the recruitment trail. 

 

Besides Frazier being gone, the loss of Edmunds right now looks like addition by subtraction. 90% of this board were killing McBeane about the MLB position and Bernard has been a revelation. Our coaches saw that, most of us did not. Some of you guys who have been bashing this coaching staff non stop since 13 seconds need to STFU and appreciate that players, coaches and GMs can and do get better within a culture of growth which McD has fostered since day 1 and has always preached.

 

Go back and watch the Cincinnati playoff game and tell everyone who complained that Frazier wasn’t a problem against good QB’s. Look in the mirror, maybe that person needs to STFU. Our defense performed great against sub par Qb’s but consistently underperformed against top performers especially in the playoffs. Something needed to change, and thankfully it did. 

[mrags]

I was very rough on the idea of McD taking over as DC and nothing really changing. I’ll admit I was wrong. The defense has really looked good and it has been a pleasure. 
 

however, this brings me to the next question. WHY…. Did it take McD so long to get rid of Frazier. It’s obvious then that he was the issue with 13 seconds and more. So why wasn’t he given the boot sooner. It’s a fail on McD imo 

[RunTheBall]

Just now, Meatloaf63 said:

Go back and watch the Cincinnati playoff game and tell everyone who complained that Frazier wasn’t a problem against good QB’s. Look in the mirror, maybe that person needs to STFU. Our defense performed great against sub par Qb’s but consistently underperformed against top performers especially in the playoffs. Something needed to change, and thankfully it did. 

No question Frazier was a big problem in that game, and I said I’m glad he “took a year off”. My point, that you clearly missed, was that there was no way McBeane was going to get rid of Frazier after 13 seconds given the high regard they had for him and the fact that statistically the defense was very very good. We all saw the weaknesses, and I bet that if McD was calling the D there probably would have been a different outcome. But, given the culture and loyalty McBeane have that just wasn’t going to happen. Plus, I think Edmunds in the middle was a bigger problem than I realized given that both Mahomes and Burrow abused him regularly.

[RunTheBall]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

I was very rough on the idea of McD taking over as DC and nothing really changing. I’ll admit I was wrong. The defense has really looked good and it has been a pleasure. 
 

however, this brings me to the next question. WHY…. Did it take McD so long to get rid of Frazier. It’s obvious then that he was the issue with 13 seconds and more. So why wasn’t he given the boot sooner. It’s a fail on McD imo 

Frazier was a very highly respected coach with statistically top 3 defenses every year. Can you imagine the sht-storm this team would have endured had they fired a guy with those stats? McBeane are loyal guys who are big on doing things the right way. They took the high road and let Frazier depart on his own terms because they respected him so much. It’s always easy in retrospect to say “we should have done X” but that’s just not how McBeane operate. 

[RochesterLifer]

3 hours ago, Bills!Win! said:

Is he  the NFL’s version of Ralph Krueger?

Yes, and McDermott is Donnie Meatballs for defensive player improvement.

[Meatloaf63]

1 minute ago, RunTheBall said:

No question Frazier was a big problem in that game, and I said I’m glad he “took a year off”. My point, that you clearly missed, was that there was no way McBeane was going to get rid of Frazier after 13 seconds given the high regard they had for him and the fact that statistically the defense was very very good. We all saw the weaknesses, and I bet that if McD was calling the D there probably would have been a different outcome. But, given the culture and loyalty McBeane have that just wasn’t going to happen. Plus, I think Edmunds in the middle was a bigger problem than I realized given that both Mahomes and Burrow abused him regularly.

Getting rid of Frazier would have been Savage, but it would have been the right thing to do. That’s a weakness on McDermott.  Although injuries were as much as an issue as defensive strategy and play calling last year. That defense was considered one of the most basic to play against and it showed against good performing teams and its inability to get off the field especially in long 3rd down situations. That issue was around for years dating back to the playoff loss against Houston. People should have been complaining for a long time. It took too long to make a change, the goal is not to be regular season champs, it is after all the superbowl.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Blackbeard said:

Just stop with this stuff. 
 

next week, if they were to lose, you’d be praising Frazier and starting posts about McD. 

I don’t think you’re going to graduate from preschool.   

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, mrags said:

I was very rough on the idea of McD taking over as DC and nothing really changing. I’ll admit I was wrong. The defense has really looked good and it has been a pleasure. 
 

however, this brings me to the next question. WHY…. Did it take McD so long to get rid of Frazier. It’s obvious then that he was the issue with 13 seconds and more. So why wasn’t he given the boot sooner. It’s a fail on McD imo 

Because Frazier was a good Dc.  Not elite like McD.  
 

He was also learning the nuances of being an nfl HC.  
 

Once he felt that he felt comfortable, he took the reigns.

 

jmo

[mrags]

14 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

Frazier was a very highly respected coach with statistically top 3 defenses every year. Can you imagine the sht-storm this team would have endured had they fired a guy with those stats? McBeane are loyal guys who are big on doing things the right way. They took the high road and let Frazier depart on his own terms because they respected him so much. It’s always easy in retrospect to say “we should have done X” but that’s just not how McBeane operate. 

if you actually think they let Frazier “depart on his own terms” then I guess we have nothing to talk about here. I don’t believe that crap for one minute. 

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Because Frazier was a good Dc.  Not elite like McD.  
 

He was also learning the nuances of being an nfl HC.  
 

Once he felt that he felt comfortable, he took the reigns.

 

jmo

I think Frazier was good. But had serious flaws. Like his lack of aggressiveness like always. He would consistently go into a prevent shell any chance he could. It cost us games. It’s something he’s always done. Dating back to the days he was a HC as well. Would get way to conservative. 

[RunTheBall]

42 minutes ago, mrags said:

if you actually think they let Frazier “depart on his own terms” then I guess we have nothing to talk about here. I don’t believe that crap for one minute. 

I think Frazier was good. But had serious flaws. Like his lack of aggressiveness like always. He would consistently go into a prevent shell any chance he could. It cost us games. It’s something he’s always done. Dating back to the days he was a HC as well. Would get way to conservative. 

That’s why it was in quotes. Of course they were getting rid of him but McBeane are 2 classy guys so they did it in a way that Frazier saved face and could keep the hope of getting another job in the future alive. Personally I don’t think Frazier will coach again and I really appreciate the way McBeane handled it because as much as I wanted Frazier gone I respect the man.

Edited October 2, 2023 by RunTheBall

[mrags]

11 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

That’s why it was in quotes. Of course they were getting rid of him but McBeane are 2 classy guys so they did it in a way that Frazier saved face and could keep the hope of getting another job in the future alive. Personally I don’t think Frazier will coach again and I really appreciate the way McBeane handled it because as much as I wanted Frazier gone I respect the man.

I am the one that put it in quotes here. Are you forgetting what you typed? Because you make it sound like you originally thought that they allowed Frazier to stay as long as he wished and he is the one that left on his own. 
 

if that’s the case you made my point.
 

it’s a black eye on McBeane for not getting rid of him much sooner. Especially after the 13 second debacle. regardless if they terminated Frazier or let him walk on his own. It should have been a long time ago. And with the defense playing as well as they are right now, signs point to a blunder for allowing Frazier to stay as long as he did. Either way, it’s a knock on McB

[cgg716]

This is no question the truth. Ironically it's why I still don't fully trust McDermott 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

if you actually think they let Frazier “depart on his own terms” then I guess we have nothing to talk about here. I don’t believe that crap for one minute. 

I think Frazier was good. But had serious flaws. Like his lack of aggressiveness like always. He would consistently go into a prevent shell any chance he could. It cost us games. It’s something he’s always done. Dating back to the days he was a HC as well. Would get way to conservative. 

I agree. And he was relieved of his duties.  It’s not like we didn’t have very good defenses with him.  They just weren’t good enough, partly because of him.
 

 I don’t agree with people that are banging on McD for not firing Frazier sooner.  

[Ralonzo]

5 hours ago, Fallser said:

I’d pump the brakes on pro bowl talk but a couple of these guys look better this year. 

 

Buffalo, the traditional home of the #1 defense with #0 guys selected to the Pro Bowl.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I agree. And he was relieved of his duties.  It’s not like we didn’t have very good defenses with him.  They just weren’t good enough, partly because of him.
 

 I don’t agree with people that are banging on McD for not firing Frazier sooner.  

I just think a lot of it falls on McD. If he’s doing what he’s doing with this defense there’s no reason he should allowed Frazier to do what he did for years without addressing it. It essentially cost is the 13 second game. There’s more as well. It’s on McD for not addressing it. 
 

but yes, our defense was very good even with that being a major problem. 

[BullBuchanan]

5 hours ago, Bills!Win! said:

Is he  the NFL’s version of Ralph Krueger?

The USWNT does have an opening.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

It’ll be interesting to see McD settle on long term as he puts tendencies back on tape.

 

This might turn out to be a very dumb statement but I'm not sure the defense has tendencies. McDermott is mixing it up constantly. We blitzed quite a few times in the first half today, then mostly dropped everyone into coverage in the 2nd half. We mostly rush 4 but it's anybody's guess which 4 are coming. When you combine that balanced play calling with a talented front 4 and a fundamentally sound back 7, and everyone is playing off of what their teammates are doing to near perfection, that's how you hold a 70 point offense to 20 points. I don't think there's some code for a genius offensive mind to crack here.

[RunTheBall]

3 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

No question Frazier was a big problem in that game, and I said I’m glad he “took a year off”. My point, that you clearly missed, was that there was no way McBeane was going to get rid of Frazier after 13 seconds given the high regard they had for him and the fact that statistically the defense was very very good. We all saw the weaknesses, and I bet that if McD was calling the D there probably would have been a different outcome. But, given the culture and loyalty McBeane have that just wasn’t going to happen. Plus, I think Edmunds in the middle was a bigger problem than I realized given that both Mahomes and Burrow abused him regularly.

 

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I am the one that put it in quotes here. Are you forgetting what you typed? Because you make it sound like you originally thought that they allowed Frazier to stay as long as he wished and he is the one that left on his own. 
 

if that’s the case you made my point.
 

it’s a black eye on McBeane for not getting rid of him much sooner. Especially after the 13 second debacle. regardless if they terminated Frazier or let him walk on his own. It should have been a long time ago. And with the defense playing as well as they are right now, signs point to a blunder for allowing Frazier to stay as long as he did. Either way, it’s a knock on McB

 

Mrags my bad. As you can see, I replied to 2 posts and I included the first one where I put “took a year off” in quotes. The post you replied to was the next one I wrote right after where I did not include the quotes so I can see why you’d think I was changing my tune. For the record, Frazier got fired but they let him save some face. I don’t think Frazier left on his own, I think McBeane let it be known they were going in another direction and  allowed him to exit with some dignity. Sorry for the confusion.

 

As for getting rid of Frazier sooner, I don’t think it was possible even though in retrospect it would have probably been the right move. You had a highly respected  coach with a statistically top 3 defense. The Bills would have been absolutely destroyed from a PR perspective and as I said, McBeane are loyal to a fault sometimes with players and coaches. I agree with you that in retrospect it would have been the right move but I can see why the move wasn’t made sooner.

[TwistofFate]

The two biggest noticeable things are.... 

 

1.  Play calling/Game planning.  Guys are constantly put in position to make impact plays. 

 

2. Execution.  Guys are accountable for their 1/11th and are where they are supposed be. 

 

Frazier wasn't terrible, he's just not as good as McD. 

 

 

[mrags]

4 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

 

 

Mrags my bad. As you can see, I replied to 2 posts and I included the first one where I put “took a year off” in quotes. The post you replied to was the next one I wrote right after where I did not include the quotes so I can see why you’d think I was changing my tune. For the record, Frazier got fired but they let him save some face. I don’t think Frazier left on his own, I think McBeane let it be known they were going in another direction and  allowed him to exit with some dignity. Sorry for the confusion.

 

As for getting rid of Frazier sooner, I don’t think it was possible even though in retrospect it would have probably been the right move. You had a highly respected  coach with a statistically top 3 defense. The Bills would have been absolutely destroyed from a PR perspective and as I said, McBeane are loyal to a fault sometimes with players and coaches. I agree with you that in retrospect it would have been the right move but I can see why the move wasn’t made sooner.

I agree with most of this. I think many wanted someone’s head to roll after 13 seconds and they had their chance. But you are correct. They are definitely loyal to a fault.
 

Let’s hope the move that was ultimately made pats off. So far I was wrong about McD and how the defense would perform. As I thought it wouldn’t be any different. I’ll keep eating crow and enjoy it if they keep putting up performances like they have. 

[JerseyBills]

Yup. It's truly night and day. This play calling and aggressive/ferocious defense is levels above Frazier

 

I said from day 1, I think the d takes on their DCs personality to a certain extent.  Frazier was laid back n calm. Sean is fiery and it looks like they've added that. Our pass rush is phenomenal 

[GaryPinC]

12 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

Feel free to merge this with the other Frazier thread but the more I watch this defense, and this team in general, has an edge to it. 
 

It’s pretty clear through 4 games that Frazier wasn’t running McDermotts defense and McDermott determined that his DC was holding some players back. 
 

The difference in play and aggressiveness from Ed Oliver, Greg Rousseau have been night and day. 
 

The development of AJ Epenesa who has been really good early this year, Terrell Bernard, Christian Benford look like pro bowl type players now. 
 

just a huge night and day difference with some of these guys from last year. 

Is there a Frazier coached player who's left and gone on to really blossom?  That would be a development issue.  I can promise you Edmunds hasn't.   He looks the same.

 

I agree with others that simply the shift in strategical approach has better empowered our guys.

Edited October 2, 2023 by GaryPinC

[NoSaint]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

This might turn out to be a very dumb statement but I'm not sure the defense has tendencies. McDermott is mixing it up constantly. We blitzed quite a few times in the first half today, then mostly dropped everyone into coverage in the 2nd half. We mostly rush 4 but it's anybody's guess which 4 are coming. When you combine that balanced play calling with a talented front 4 and a fundamentally sound back 7, and everyone is playing off of what their teammates are doing to near perfection, that's how you hold a 70 point offense to 20 points. I don't think there's some code for a genius offensive mind to crack here.

im not saying it’ll be stale and incredibly predictable but at some point it’ll emerge that against certain packages, or in certain situations he will lean on certain calls more often. I’m not saying suddenly the whole thing becomes predictable but you are watching games straight through not dialing up every 3rd and 8-12 that he’s called for 8 games to see if it’s 60-40 blitz or drop 

[gonzo1105]

11 hours ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

I am glad McDermott is calling the D plays.  But Leslie Frazier was, is and will always be one helluva human being dedicated to his players and his craft.  Let's not do the after-the-fact blame game and be happy with what we have.  

This is not just a you thing, but what does Leslie Frazier being a good human being have to do with utilizing talent in a correct manner? 
 

I mean I’m a good guy doesn’t mean I do everything well in life 

[mjt328]

The main criticism for Sean McDermott (especially over the last two seasons) is that he was good enough to turn the Bills into a contender... but not good enough to get this team across the finish line.

 

But over the first 4 games of the season, we may be seeing that Leslie Frazier was actually the primary reason for this.  And honestly it shouldn't be that surprising when you stop and think about it.

 

Frazier's strength has always been fundamentals.  Knowing your job.  Being in position.  Disguising coverages, but rarely blitzing.  Keeping plays underneath and then buckling down in the Red Zone.  And every season we saw the exact same results.  Totally shutting down the low-level QBs on our schedule and achieving a Top 5 defensive ranking in most categories, but then totally collapsing in the playoffs against elite passers.

 

McDermott seems to be living in both worlds.  He's got the veterans (Poyer, Hyde, Milano, White, etc.) who have been playing together for years.  They know the fundamentals.  They know where to be and what position to be in, especially on the back-end.  But the aggression has also been dialed up to a 10 with the pass rush.  And by stressing opposing blockers with blitzing, it's allowing us to finally maximize the deeply talented D-Line we've been building for years.

 

[colin]

our coaching now is better than it was when we lost the 21 second game.  offense and defense, and i think HC too as mcD seems to have learned some lessons.

 

with floyd, von, and even tiny bernard (i can't believe im saying that) we also have playmakers on D we didn't have back then.

 

on O, the biggest issue w our team after the 2020 and 2021 season was 1) blocking, and 2) we just could not get production from the TE and RB positions.  

 

we've made huge strides there, altho we don't have the TE production i kinda expected, if fools are gonna let diggs get open, that doesn't really matter so much.

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, mrags said:

I just think a lot of it falls on McD. If he’s doing what he’s doing with this defense there’s no reason he should allowed Frazier to do what he did for years without addressing it. It essentially cost is the 13 second game. There’s more as well. It’s on McD for not addressing it. 
 

but yes, our defense was very good even with that being a major problem. 

This is all speculation imo.  We don’t know what was said behind closed doors.  We don’t know what McD did or didn’t say to Frazier over the years.  Do we know that it was Frazier calling the plays in 13 seconds?

 

I don’t really care to discuss this anymore.  I’d rather live in the present than complain about the past.   Especially to complain about our HC/DC that just shut down the vaunted Miami O.   
 

He won that game yesterday, taking a perceived young mastermind to the woodshed

[Blackbeard]

14 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

You're wrong.... dead wrong.

 

Everyone can see the night and day difference in the attacking nature of our defense this season.

And i agree.  McD is better thus far.

 

My point was is that one day Mc is awful.  The next game, depending on score, Frazier is awful.  The game after, it's Allen.  

 

Next week, if we have a let down, it'll be "Miss Frazier yet?". 

 

People act SO damn finicky with these week to week threads.  

Edited October 2, 2023 by Blackbeard

[GerstAusGosheim]

13 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Incorrect, it's the same system. McDermott is just a more aggressive play caller than Frazier. Same system, same concepts, different signal caller is all the difference.

Silly statement...

The biggest difference could be that Sean has a better Dline than Leslie ever had. I don't think enough people recognize that. Adding Leonard Floyd to the mix of DaQuon Jones, a healthy Ed Oliver and Greg Rousseau entering his breakout 3rd season was huge. 

[MAJBobby]

Who has the breakdown of Fangios Defense and how he is locked into certain plays based on the personnel he puts on the field.  I know there is a right up how he telegraphs what is going to happen with just the personnel package?