The Bills biggest problem on offense remains unchanged

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

That's fine oldman, the Dolphins just ran for over 300 yards. 

 

The Bills (and Bernard) shut them down, or hold them to reasonable yardage, I will readily admit I'm wrong. 

 

I think media, some fans, see the Commanders game: 2 sacks, a FR, and a Interception (great) and conclude we're all set. 

 

I do think the risk is there that he is small against the run. 

 

Can't have it all, and for sure he's been much better than I thought he'd be. His last game matched Edmunds best game ever and he had 5 years here. 

It’s going to be a helluva game Sunday.  They’ll be tough to slow down but we did so last year in 120 degree heat and 4 non starters in the defensive backfield.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

As I pointed out since so many fawn over PFF around here, Brown is ranked higher.  Sorry if that also escaped you.  And since you brought up Jones as a guy that you apparently think is better than Brown, tell me how many Browns games you’ve watched.

His pass blocking grade is over 75.0. 

 

PFF dings him for run blocking, in Week 1 he was in the 30's. 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

His pass blocking grade is over 75.0. 

 

PFF dings him for run blocking, in Week 1 he was in the 30's. 

 

 

So now we have to nitpick?  And tell me again how many Browns games you’ve watched.

Edited September 27, 2023 by oldmanfan

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Josh, Allen escapability skllls are probably the best in NFL history and what I saw the last couple of games could entirely be that. However, I am suggesting there is an element of design and what is happening and that Josh knows what direction Brown is going to let the defender beat him, if need be. And that a certain count in his head Allen is going to confidently roll right knowing the DE assigned to Brown is not

going to be an issue. 
 

 

I think there is an element of design too. Not that Spencer is allowing himself to be beat but that he knows if he is going to get beat his job is at least to direct inside.

[Brand J]

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

His last game dwarfed Edmunds best game ever and he had 5 years here. 

FIFY. Edmunds never had a single game close to the numbers Bernard put up last Sunday. And I can’t even identify a signature Edmunds game.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So now we have to nitpick?  And tell me again how many Browns games you’ve watched.

Well I walked you into this one. 

 

I live in Ohio (have since 2006), lived in 3 places around Cleveland, so I am very versed in the Browns. 

 

It's not a surprise to me that a 6'8" 379 pound OT with an 87" wingspan who played at Ohio State is already starting in the league. Jack Conklin was a ticking time bomb because his lower legs have accumulated numerous injuries. He lasted 1/2-quarter before tearing a ligament in Week One. 

 

Dawand lumbers against the run, but even against Watt, if he gets his hands on you (watch him verses Hendrickson in Week One) your momentum stops as a DE instantly. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

FIFY. Edmunds never had a single game close to the numbers Bernard put up last Sunday. And I can’t even identify a signature Edmunds game.  

Yes, again, written generally that Bernard has already matched Edmunds best performance. 

 

FIFY - great, happy to accept the clarification. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Buffalo_Stampede]

40 minutes ago, Dunkirk Donski said:

I couldnt agree more with this.  Josh needs another weapon he can trust and Gabe is NOT the answer

Time to try Kincaid as that 2nd option. Davis and Knox just aren’t reliable.

[Dopey]

19 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree.  The OLine and Spencer both seem improved.  Of course they could improve more.

 

Meanwhile our real "biggest problem on offense"  (WR2) does not seem to have been addressed or improved.  The inconsistency of G Davis is still there.   His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game.  Another baffling drop against Wash.  I've seen enough, the trial is over.  Do what it takes to get a stud WR - M Evans or C Kupp.  

Some of you are still excusing away Josh's terrible performance!?!? Stop with the BS, Josh lost that game. Not Dorsey, not Gabe, not Brown, not McDermott. Straight up Josh. Even if a crisp route was run, Josh should not have thrown that pass. I guess the other INT's and the fumble just don't matter. Cuz it's Josh?

 

[Einstein's Dog]

26 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I mean I'd love another elite wr but i just don't see it happening with the cap, Idk , I really like Gabe , he had a phenomenal week 2, big TD last week.  Ya he's a bit inconsistent but we could do alot worse at WR2. I think he's top 10 WR2. 

In the AFC the only with better WR2s are

Mia

LAC , well not anymore with Williams down

Cincy

That's it.

 

You can argue Denver with Jeudy and Pitt with Dionte Johnson i guess but I'd still take Gabe personally 

 

Gabe a top 10 WR2?  No.  You mentioned Mia, LAC, Cincy, Denver + Pitt.  Now add Vegas (Adams/Meyer/Renfro), Jax (Ridley/Kirk).  Then add the NYJ (Wilson/Lazard) and even Houston (Collins/Tank).  And these are all AFC teams.

[SoonerBillsFan]

Look Davis isn't going anywhere this year. We need Trent to step up his game and maybe slide into #2.  There is only so much cap room and so much you can do in an offseason. RT and WR need upgrades this offseason, but with our cap situation next year I would look for that to be addressed in the draft.

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Look Davis isn't going anywhere this year. We need Trent to step up his game and maybe slide into #2.  There is only so much cap room and so much you can do in an offseason. RT and WR need upgrades this offseason, but with our cap situation next year I would look for that to be addressed in the draft.

I still think that the long term number two is not on the roster yet
 

Here’s what I think is going to happen

 

Gabe Davis’s gonna ride out this year with us. He’s gonna have a good season.

 

He’s gonna get a stupid money offer which he is going to take in the off-season

 

We are either going to use our first or second round pick on a wide receiver a talented player that we can have on a long cost control contract

 

We seem to have short of our o line but will still probably draft a right tackle

[Watkins101]

Pretty sure the biggest problem last year was not being able to run the ball. So far that has been better than last year. 

[Einstein's Dog]

2 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Some of you are still excusing away Josh's terrible performance!?!? Stop with the BS, Josh lost that game. Not Dorsey, not Gabe, not Brown, not McDermott. Straight up Josh. Even if a crisp route was run, Josh should not have thrown that pass. I guess the other INT's and the fumble just don't matter. Cuz it's Josh?

 

Obviously it's not one person.  And more than one person can have a bad game. 

 

But when a borderline WR runs a route like that, there can be real consequences.  Especially when going into this season Gabe had to become more consistent, clean up the drops, and run better routes.  It hasn't happened.  Plan B needs to be in full swing, and this can't wait until next year.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

9 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Look Davis isn't going anywhere this year. We need Trent to step up his game and maybe slide into #2.  There is only so much cap room and so much you can do in an offseason. RT and WR need upgrades this offseason, but with our cap situation next year I would look for that to be addressed in the draft.

You're right to some degree here. 

 

The run on WR started right before the Bills pick, and out of those so far it looks like Flowers would have been the right pick. 

 

And no problem with the Bills investing in Torrence in Round 2. 

 

There was nothing in FA. There was no money for DeAndre Hopkins. 

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I still think that the long term number two is not on the roster yet
 

Here’s what I think is going to happen

 

Gabe Davis’s gonna ride out this year with us. He’s gonna have a good season.

 

He’s gonna get a stupid money offer which he is going to take in the off-season

 

We are either going to use our first or second round pick on a wide receiver a talented player that we can have on a long cost control contract

 

We seem to have short of our o line but will still probably draft a right tackle

Agree with this. 

 

WR, RT, S seem to be top of the list right now. 

[JerseyBills]

16 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Gabe a top 10 WR2?  No.  You mentioned Mia, LAC, Cincy, Denver + Pitt.  Now add Vegas (Adams/Meyer/Renfro), Jax (Ridley/Kirk).  Then add the NYJ (Wilson/Lazard) and even Houston (Collins/Tank).  And these are all AFC teams.

I said Den n Pit is arguable. I'd take Gabe personally. 

No chance I'd take Myers or Renfrow, Kirk , Lazzard is laughable and Tank is way to early to tell

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Spencer brown is less of a problem now…you can gameplan around one bad offensive linemen but when you start to have two or more it goes bad in a hurry 

 

last year saffold and brown both being bad was a disaster 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Einstein's Dog]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The run on WR started right before the Bills pick, and out of those so far it looks like Flowers would have been the right pick. 

 

There was nothing in FA. There was no money for DeAndre Hopkins. 

 

The draft is somewhat of a crap shoot.  Better to get a sure thing veteran.

 

There were plenty of rumors the Bills tried to trade for DHop - once he hit the open market the odds went down.

[Ballhawk]

I don't know why the Bills simply don't run screens off the right side, where Brown getting beat actually helps create an opening behind the DE driving up field?

 

Just seems like a nice way to capitalize on this weakness while possibly inserting some doubt in the DE (once we ran a few successfully). Brown hasn't been great, but I think he could slow the DE down just enough to setup the screen.

[Einstein's Dog]

21 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Here’s what I think is going to happen

Gabe Davis’s gonna ride out this year with us. He’s gonna have a good season.

He’s gonna get a stupid money offer which he is going to take in the off-season

 

We are either going to use our first or second round pick on a wide receiver a talented player that we can have on a long cost control contract

 

We seem to have short of our o line but will still probably draft a right tackle

Here's what I think/hope:

 

The FO realizes Gabe Davis is not having a good year- last year here.

 

The FO anticipated this and does not wait.  In-season trade.  We may use our first (Kupp) or second (M Evans) on a multi-year contract (going beyond Diggs' contract length for that insurance).

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Thanks for that info.

But it doesn't negate the OP's points - if we had to spend one less receiving asset to help Brown in pass pro, the O would be even more dynamic and diverse that it already is. While the last two weeks have been more than adequate to blowout the teams, we will struggle against teams built like the Jets D or if we run into a high scoring team with a great pass rush. Undoubtedly, there will be at least one such team in the playoffs

I’ll give you an example of a high scoring team with a great pass rush:

 

The Buffalo Bills

 

 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Target.  Hot seat.  Whatever.  There is a strange predilection around here to focus negativity on a given player.  Right now it’s Brown.  And no he does not, in your word, suck.  He is good in the run game and needs to continue to improve in pass protection. If Brown shows marked improvement then the target will simply shift to another guy.  One would have thought that it would be Bernard since.so much negativity in the off-season was about not having a MLB but surprise! - when he actually played he was pretty good.  This is why I try to just watch the games and not let confirmation bias affect my view of how a given guy plays.

 

Ironically enough there is only one guy on the roster who has played one truly sucky game, and that was Josh week one.

 

Thats what people do here.  Discuss the Bills. This isn't sunshine and rainbows message board. Both positive and negative things get discussed. Brown is a weak link so he is being discussed as such.  You talk about Bernard... people thought he would be a weak link so they discussed it and MLB in general. You are correct... surprise he wasn't a weak link thus far... so surprise people are positively talking about him.  Then you bring up Josh, who hasn't been the only one to have a truly sucky game but whatever... surprise people talked about that suckage the entire weak.

 

You attitude about "Target. Hot seat. Whatever." is simply wrong. When people think there is a weakness they will discuss it. What is the problem with that?

[Captain_Quint]

49 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Time to try Kincaid as that 2nd option. Davis and Knox just aren’t reliable.

Would have been a tough catch this week, but Knox had a ball hit both hands in the end zone. Gabe barely missed one too, but caught one. 

 

I hope as the year goes on, Josh targets Kincaid on those routes. All he needs to do is match the consistentcy he showed at Utah, and Josh will find him. 

[Utah John]

15 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills just destroyed the Commanders in a game in which we had something like NINE sacks while our starting RB nearly broke 100 yards and we choose now to complain about the offensive line? Okie Dokie? 

More to the point, our O line gave up zero sacks to the vaunted Commanders' D line with four 1st round draft picks.  Allen often had all day to pass and had very few pressures.  Our O line, all across the board, is shaping up to be, well, not really a strength, but not a liability any more.  Brown is part of that.  (Two much better guards are the biggest reason.)

[Nephilim17]

No sacks playing Washington's great D-line does not reveal our biggest problem.

I"m with BadoldBillz and Gunner: we need another legit WR weapon before we need a right tackle.

[Wayne Arnold]

25 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Here's what I think/hope:

 

The FO realizes Gabe Davis is not having a good year- last year here.

 

The FO anticipated this and does not wait.  In-season trade.  We may use our first (Kupp) or second (M Evans) on a multi-year contract (going beyond Diggs' contract length for that insurance).

 

They're not trading a captain. No matter how many drops he has.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The premise here is that the Bills offense is being ‘handicapped’ by needing to help out Brown in pass protection. So…I went to the NFL league-wide receiving stats to see if this would show up. It doesn’t. The Bills have more receivers in the Top 100 than most if not all of the other contenders. For example, the Chiefs don’t have a single receiver in the Top 50. Kincaid has as many receptions as Kelce, who is their top target. Even with the Dolphins hanging 70 points last week, they only have Hill in the Top 50. Once again, it’s easy to be critical of our Bills, but the other 31 teams are far from perfection across the entirety of their rosters.

 

This isn't exactly indicative of what the premise is about. Play design itself suffers having to have multiple people helping out. It's less targets for Josh. If a receiver is helping to block, he isn't running a route so that's one less target. That makes the coverage easier on defenders. Even if the guy is just chipping and pushing the defender into position, his route is late and probably already past the read because there isn't much time in the pocket.

 

Secondly, I looked... what you said is objectively false. I see teams in the top 61 listed with 2 to 3 receivers in the list as far as receptions are concerned. I stopped at 61 because that's where our second most reception player is and that is Kincaid. I didn't spend a lot of time looking because I'm tired and don't feel like it. I just took some quick glances, but it was enough to see that you aren't totally correct in what you said. There was a team or two that had two guys in the top 20 in receptions for example. From recollection, Min had two guys in the top 8.

 

Thirdly, Kelce missed a game so has only played 2 to Kincaid's 3.  Waddle has also missed a game and would like also be up around Hill in the list if he hadn't.

 

In any case, your inaccurate statement doesn't really matter because reception leaders aren't the end all be all for the premise of the thread as I said out above. I wish I could have written and said this better but unfortunately, I have been up for almost 30 hours now and I'm tired and half blind from hazy eyes. Perhaps we can discuss it better after I have had some sleep. If I ever get any.

[SoonerBillsFan]

29 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Here's what I think/hope:

 

The FO realizes Gabe Davis is not having a good year- last year here.

 

The FO anticipated this and does not wait.  In-season trade.  We may use our first (Kupp) or second (M Evans) on a multi-year contract (going beyond Diggs' contract length for that insurance).

I think that the Bucs might go for trading Evans for Davis and maybe one of our 3rds maybe a 4th.    Maybe...

 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

They're not trading a captain. No matter how many drops he has.

I'm not talking about trading G Davis, it's about us trading to get an upgrade at WR2.  We would keep G Davis through this year and then let him hit the open market.

[HappyDays]

Almost every team has a liability somewhere on the OL. I don't agree that our RT being below average is a huge problem.

 

I agree with your headline though. Our biggest problem on offense last year was not having a consistent #2 pass catcher. That problem continues this year. Teams with below average RTs have made it to the Super Bowl in recent years. Teams with inadequate #2 pass catchers have not.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Bills biggest problem is a lack of playmakers in the pass game beyond Diggs.

 

Just running more non-separators and ball-droppers out on passing plays doesn't resolve the issue of Gabe Davis or Dawson Knox not being able to elevate their games to be a top second option despite Allen being great.    They both tend to need Allen to run around and buy time for them to make much of an impact.

 

The Bills still need another very good WR to elevate their offense to the very top.

I agree with this too.

[Wayne Arnold]

9 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I'm not talking about trading G Davis, it's about us trading to get an upgrade at WR2.  We would keep G Davis through this year and then let him hit the open market.

 

Gotcha. Considering the two TE sets in the offense this year I don't see us trading for another WR especially when Davis remains on the roster. Gonna ride with what we have. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

And if you watch him this year, watch him without confirmation bias, he's not doing that bad.  He certainly has room to improve but he's not playing that bad.  But because, if you look at the rest of the roster there are no obvious candidates, Brown is targeted for the negativity.

Interesting points

 

He had a nice game Sunday...

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Almost every team has a liability somewhere on the OL. I don't agree that our RT being below average is a huge problem.

 

I agree with your headline though. Our biggest problem on offense last year was not having a consistent #2 pass catcher. That problem continues this year. Teams with below average RTs have made it to the Super Bowl in recent years. Teams with inadequate #2 pass catchers have not.

Agreed. 
 

We need the “passing to Diggs ain’t working” option. We don’t have it. Haven’t had it since 2020 tbh. 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

That's fine oldman, the Dolphins just ran for over 300 yards. 

 

The Bills (and Bernard) shut them down, or hold them to reasonable yardage, I will readily admit I'm wrong. 

 

I think media, some fans, see the Commanders game: 2 sacks, a FR, and a Interception (great) and conclude we're all set. 

 

I do think the risk is there that he is small against the run. 

 

Can't have it all, and for sure he's been much better than I thought he'd be. His last game matched Edmunds best game ever and he had 5 years here. 

 

The run defense thus far has been really good outside of a couple plays that went for huge gains.  They had an execution error on those plays. If they clean them up they will be fine. For the most part runs defense has done a good job though.

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

Even if a crisp route was run, Josh should not have thrown that pass.

Josh lost us that game.  Completely agree but this is wrong.  He made the correct read as explained in the other threads.

[Figster]

The biggest obstacle on Offense is the growth /development of Bills OC Ken Dorsey IMO. While I still remain skeptical, Josh Allen has helped his young OC over the last two games by showing better game management skills IMO. Taking what the oppositions D gives you has resulted in longer sustained drives and has made an already hard O to defend against practically unstoppable IMO. Players on the Bills Oline including Spencer Brown all benefit from a well distributed ball control Offense IMO. Meanwhile the Bills D stays well rested.

 

Opening up room for optimism...

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Obviously it's not one person.  And more than one person can have a bad game. 

 

But when a borderline WR runs a route like that, there can be real consequences.  Especially when going into this season Gabe had to become more consistent, clean up the drops, and run better routes.  It hasn't happened.  Plan B needs to be in full swing, and this can't wait until next year.

Just responding to a quote from you:  His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game. It's very annoying when I see " Edmunds never made an impact play" or " His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game". There's still people here excusing Josh for that game. I tried to move on but it's hard when this stuff keeps popping up. 

[brianthomas]

it is an issue, however at least they're seemingly aware of it & are helping him. I've been pretty critical of a lot of Beane's decisions, specifically his lack of urgency in addressing the oline more aggressively. But at least they're not letting Brown get exposed. Then we'd have something else to be upset about

[Einstein's Dog]

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Just responding to a quote from you:  His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game. It's very annoying when I see " Edmunds never made an impact play" or " His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game". There's still people here excusing Josh for that game. I tried to move on but it's hard when this stuff keeps popping up. 

I can understand where you're coming from.  For me, when I saw that replay, I was sick.  This is our guy who has our WR2 role and that was the route he ran?  There are only so many plays he is out there and he has to know they are going to review each one.

 

Josh doesn't need to be excused, his job is nowhere near in jeopardy.  A borderline WR2, in what I hope is a trial run, cannot be doing these things.  IMO we needed him to improve and he hasn't.

[BADOLBILZ]

22 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Gotcha. Considering the two TE sets in the offense this year I don't see us trading for another WR especially when Davis remains on the roster. Gonna ride with what we have. 

 

 

Well there is a very simple, common sense solution to that:

 

Play Gabe Davis 40%-50% of the snaps instead of 80-90%.

 

He lead the Bills WR in snaps played last year and had 95% of the snaps in his lousy performance against the Jets in week 1.

 

Gabe Davis is simply not good enough to deserve anything close to all of the snaps he gets.

 

He is a player whose PT should depend on the matchups that they get..........and as long as he is WR2 he isn't getting favorable matchups against healthy/good opponents.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

50 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This isn't exactly indicative of what the premise is about. Play design itself suffers having to have multiple people helping out. It's less targets for Josh. If a receiver is helping to block, he isn't running a route so that's one less target. That makes the coverage easier on defenders. Even if the guy is just chipping and pushing the defender into position, his route is late and probably already past the read because there isn't much time in the pocket.

 

Secondly, I looked... what you said is objectively false. I see teams in the top 61 listed with 2 to 3 receivers in the list as far as receptions are concerned. I stopped at 61 because that's where our second most reception player is and that is Kincaid. I didn't spend a lot of time looking because I'm tired and don't feel like it. I just took some quick glances, but it was enough to see that you aren't totally correct in what you said. There was a team or two that had two guys in the top 20 in receptions for example. From recollection, Min had two guys in the top 8.

 

Thirdly, Kelce missed a game so has only played 2 to Kincaid's 3.  Waddle has also missed a game and would like also be up around Hill in the list if he hadn't.

 

In any case, your inaccurate statement doesn't really matter because reception leaders aren't the end all be all for the premise of the thread as I said out above. I wish I could have written and said this better but unfortunately, I have been up for almost 30 hours now and I'm tired and half blind from hazy eyes. Perhaps we can discuss it better after I have had some sleep. If I ever get any.

I apologize. I was primarily looking for the teams we know are elite (KC, MIA, CIN). Yes, there are teams with two; for example the Texans, but I don’t think anyone believes they’ll be contenders this year.