Elam now CB4 and playing kickoff coverage in the preseason

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

That is possible.  There also is a chance that he isn’t catching on to the zone heavy scheme like was hoped.  He might be better suited for a defense with more press man coverage.  No idea.

Its a damn shame really

[3rdand12]

55 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Wrong. You should always draft for need. Torrence was a need. Kincaid was a need. Allen Edmunds Oliver Rousseau all need picks. 

Just becuase a need pick doesn't work out doesn't mean it is the wrong strategy.  A BPA philosophy is silly and is never actually followed by anyone. What if a DT or S was BPA this first/second round and they passed on a pass catcher and a guard for another DT or S?

A tiny MLB from Baylor was not a need. A backup RB was not a need. Last year the need was to get an OT or another OL. They failed and had to spend dollars on McGovern.

 

Kincaid was far and away BPA

Torrence was a need  , and one. Hoops reference there <
 

Its a mixed bag

just cuz they have struggled to develop players does not define any draft "methods "

and this is the issue

Bills are not able to develop players to be their best. Quickly, or at all even

Josh is an example

The Kid can do it all and more.
But last season had me questioning what he was being Coached to do.
 

 This year Bills made an effort to address players on Offense for Josh. Thank you very much
Now

Can they Coach them up to be e swiss watch

1st preseason game says No

12 penalties in the 1st half

 

its not just one thing that is not syncing at OBD

Edited August 27, 2023 by 3rdand12

[Orlando Tim]

57 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Wrong. You should always draft for need. Torrence was a need. Kincaid was a need. Allen Edmunds Oliver Rousseau all need picks. 

Just becuase a need pick doesn't work out doesn't mean it is the wrong strategy.  A BPA philosophy is silly and is never actually followed by anyone. What if a DT or S was BPA this first/second round and they passed on a pass catcher and a guard for another DT or S?

A tiny MLB from Baylor was not a need. A backup RB was not a need. Last year the need was to get an OT or another OL. They failed and had to spend dollars on McGovern.

 

Good coaches and GMs make mistakes, I judge by wins and losses. Also after round 2 I draft BPA all the time because a 3rd rounder is much less than a 50/50 proposition of being an impact player.

[hondo in seattle]

Contrary to what others may insinuate, Beane is not a moron.  He's made a lot of good moves and built us a pretty good team in a very competitive league.  

 

But it's not a SB team yet and misses like Elam are part of the reason why.   Obviously, he knew Elam was a press corner and drafted him anyway.  Maybe to give our defense more versatility.  Maybe something convinced him that McD and his staff could coach Elam to be a good zone defender.  Whatever the reason, it looks like Beane was wrong.  It happens.  

 

Some GM, maybe Ron Wolfe, said that you want to get one or two Pro Bowlers in every draft.  The NFL is filled with jags who have starting jobs; you need some Pro Bowlers to set your team apart.  It doesn't matter if they come in the 1st or 7th round.  If the 1st round pick is a bust and the 5th rounder is a perennial All Pro, it's all good.  The problem for us is we didn't get any elite players out of that draft in any round...  At least, that's how it looks now.  

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Contrary to what others may insinuate, Beane is not a moron.  He's made a lot of good moves and built us a pretty good team in a very competitive league.  

 

But it's not a SB team yet and misses like Elam are part of the reason why.   Obviously, he knew Elam was a press corner and drafted him anyway.  Maybe to give our defense more versatility.  Maybe something convinced him that McD and his staff could coach Elam to be a good zone defender.  Whatever the reason, it looks like Beane was wrong.  It happens.  

 

Some GM, maybe Ron Wolfe, said that you want to get one or two Pro Bowlers in every draft.  The NFL is filled with jags who have starting jobs; you need some Pro Bowlers to set your team apart.  It doesn't matter if they come in the 1st or 7th round.  If the 1st round pick is a bust and the 5th rounder is a perennial All Pro, it's all good.  The problem for us is we didn't get any elite players out of that draft...  Well, it's not looking good so far.  

Tell me a GM that has consistently drafted 1-2 pro bowlers in their drafts.

[3rdand12]

19 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I agree. I think he would be a better fit for them. I will say, our staff does a really good job of coaching up dbs, especially late round picks. They can do the same with Elam. To trade a player after 1 season is just plain dumb. A lot of emotional GMs here. We have a very deep and talented cb group and that includes Elam. 

They coach them up to be serviceable.
None of them have become elite 
 so no
we have depth. and that is good but nothing that stands out. And Tre is yet show back to form. Fingers crossed for him though : )

[section122]

Always lost in this conversation is that benford has played very well.  His contain and tackle on fields was a very sound and good play.  

 

I think elam found himself in the doghouse after the penalty last week.  Hope it works as motivation.

[ALLinALLEN]

He’s a great depth piece imo. People calling to trade him just expect ALL round 1 guys to be elite by year 2. He’s had big woof games and plays but getting rid of him is a mistake. Great depth to have and still hopefully can turn out decent. 

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

They coach them up to be serviceable.
None of them have become elite 
 so no
we have depth. and that is good but nothing that stands out. And Tre is yet show back to form. Fingers crossed for him though : )

 

Tre getting back to being Tre is right behind MLB on my list of defensive concerns. I really haven’t heard anything about his recovery this season. Maybe I missed it, but that seems kind of odd. 

[Billl]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Not sure how many times Beane needs to see, YOU DON’T DRAFT FOR NEED and succeed. 

That’s not really true, though.  This team has been right on the cusp for 3 seasons.  When you’re that close to winning your first championship, everything you do is for need.  Once you’ve got one, you get to start planning for the long term.  McBeane doesn’t have the luxury of that.  They are all in right now.  I think you’re going to see an aggressive rebuild next offseason.  If they’d have won it in 2021 or 2022, they’d have done it this offseason.

[pigpen65]

Benford is better but Elam still has time.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

Before we all go off the cliff, do we know that this game could be nothing more than a planned rotation of opportunity to play with the one's on defense.  Until we either have some sort of pronouncement or see who starts in the season opener, none of us knows for sure how this is going to sort out.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I don't know if him playing special teams is as much as about him being on the ropes for roster spots or that he will likely be the 4th or 5th corner and they need to know how to play special teams to be active on game days

 

He still has a lot of value to the bills in my opinion, the bills love to disguise coverages and before white got hurt actually played near 50-50 man and zone and Elam really is the only corner that has the ability or potential to play man consistently on this roster 

[maddenboy]

5 hours ago, Virgil said:

Something is happening in practice to where he’s behind Tre, Benford, and Jackson.  
 

Whatever it is, he’s not worth his contract to this team 

Why would you leave out the part of the quote where I indicated the same.  Hence why I said, this isn’t Madden

lemme see what i can do

[BillsShredder83]

5 hours ago, Virgil said:

I was going to wait until the game was over to make this exact post. 
 

I really think the Bills should take trade offers for him.  It’s not that he isn’t good. He just doesn’t fit our system.  
 

A team like the Ravens would love to have him and I’m sure there are other DB needy teams. 
 

Ideally, there’s a team out there with good OT or MLB depth that needs a DB, but this isn’t Madden. 
 

For me, if you can get a 2nd rounder, go for it 

I can't get here. Only way I trade him is a p4p swap and a zone cb, but that sounds unlikely. We knew what he was, nothings changed in 1 year. DEVELOP DEVELOP DEVELOP!!!!

 

For now, find ways to get him on the field in situational hybrid zone/press.  I'd be furious at a trade because we aren't getting chit, and we have no clue what we have. Major indictment on this staff if you throw up your hands and admit you can't develop the guy, or use him situational.

 

Fireable offense to me just based on poor communication and draf capital usage. McD was aware of his strengths enough to have him on their first rd board. Beane isn't pulling the trigger without acknowledgement the staff can coach him up. Has the physical tools and is a cerebral player, MAKE IT WORK, OR HELL TRYYYYYY. Unbelievable

[John from Riverside]

I wonder if press man teams have already been calling the bills about a trade
 

I’m telling you right now you take Elam and you put him on a press man team and he would shine. I just don’t know if he’s going to be able to shine here

[eme123]

5 hours ago, Virgil said:

Something is happening in practice to where he’s behind Tre, Benford, and Jackson.  
 

Maybe those 3 are just better football players than Elam. Is it out of the question that Elam is playing well and Benford/ Jackson are beating him out? People act like draft position is gospel and its far from it. Once the lights go on who cares. 

[BillsShredder83]

4 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

I've always found it bizarre how fans are more dedicated to keeping "our guys" than the GMs who actually invested draft capital into them.  He's either not a good player or not a good fit, just get the best return you can at this point.

You don't unload a 1st rd pick after 1 season unless they're smoking crack on Chippewa. This is something the Browns and Texans do, not a champ team that has the depth to develop the guy.

 

Was everyone here drinking for a preseason game??????

[BillsShredder83]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

We all know how this story ends. “He’s young, let him develop” yada yada yada then he’s 4th year AJE who can’t set an edge on a third string tackle.

AJE was a 2nd rder coming out of a weird draft where players didn't get regular training camps.

 

Elam has elite measurables, played in the SEC, and was drafted knowing he was a bit of a project to fit our scheme. 

 

Depth alone he's valuable to this team this year (a SB expectation season) and that's ignoring the chance to develop a guy completely switching schemes. 

 

He's struggling to adapt, at our deepest position on the team. This would be inconceivably dumb!!! Don't hold your breath on a trade, Beane ain't that dumb either

[BillsShredder83]

3 hours ago, BILLieve85 said:

That cap room is a decent RT in the offseason. Elam is a solid CB but this team doesn’t use man enough. This team has plenty of DB depth. Oh well

How do we know McD won't run more man? They've indicated they plan to be more aggressive, assuming that includes blitzing.

 

Outside of that, along our playoff run we'll need a man guy for Chase/Tyreek/Kelce.

 

You'd rather have a 4th rder than a guy that can help cover the biggest thorns in our side? 

 

So unbelievably short sighted

[KOKBILLS]

5 hours ago, Process said:

What's your play here?

 

Hang onto him and hope he develops?

 

Trade him while he still has some value? If he's not playing, his value will only go down the further we get from when he was drafted. 

 

I would say trade him, but we don't have a lot of depth. Who is CB4 then, Austin? If a bad team offered a 3rd, I'd probably take it. 

 

I didn't follow him in college, but him not being a fit for our defense is not a surprise, right? We knew that already going into the draft? That's the frustrating part. 

 

Beane will see what is out there for sure. Lots of CB needy teams... I'm not sure playing him as CB4 in the final preseason game is the best way to maximize his value on the open market. I'm also not sure the Bills really want to deal him with all the secondary injuries they suffered last year. Not to mention the fact that Dane Jackson will be a UFA next off season. But all things considered the possibilities of trading Elam are definitely not zero. 

[Xwnyer]

You knew the guy was a man on man CB you draft him and then try to make him play zone.   Bad move 

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

????

 

That's not even true from his draft class. Most players drafted #20-#32 started almost their entire rookie years barring injury. 8 of that 14. That's not including the one who got hurt.

Maybe so. All the talk during the draft was maybe 18 or so real 1st round grades. Elam has shown he has starting ability, but the Bills are trying to make him into more than just an average starter.

[Meatloaf63]

6 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I still don’t understand this. I thought he was quite good at times last year. Had 2 huge ints

McDermott doesn’t always make the best decisions with personnel.

[SoMAn]

2 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

That is possible.  There also is a chance that he isn’t catching on to the zone heavy scheme like was hoped.  He might be better suited for a defense with more press man coverage.  No idea.

I know there’s probably good bit involved, but learning zone is not rocket science.
Assuming he’s had access to DB coaches, the playbook, and teammates in the DB room with similar assignments, how, after 15+months of exposure to the scheme, is he still struggling? It’s his job!
If he’s still trying to figure it out, he should be up at the crack of dawn every day like anyone else with a job, studying and learning til his head hurts.
In his pre-draft interview he was seen in the meeting with Bean and McD making a point of how prepared he is and studies the playbook diligently. 

I’m starting to believe that was him parroting a script from his agent, or he actually does work that hard, but just doesn’t catch on quickly. 
If learning how to play zone is that complicated, maybe spending a first round pick on Elam was a big mistake. 
If the scheme is one the Bills believed can be absorbed by an average player, maybe Elam has the athleticism, but just isn’t smart enough for the mental aspect.

[JaCrispy]

6 hours ago, Virgil said:

I was going to wait until the game was over to make this exact post. 
 

I really think the Bills should take trade offers for him.  It’s not that he isn’t good. He just doesn’t fit our system.  
 

A team like the Ravens would love to have him and I’m sure there are other DB needy teams. 
 

Ideally, there’s a team out there with good OT or MLB depth that needs a DB, but this isn’t Madden. 
 

For me, if you can get a 2nd rounder, go for it 

Agreed…I think we could get a 3rd for him…👍

[balln]

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

Coaches can make mistakes, but they've got a team of coaches all evaluating these guys. If anything, the mistake was made at the draft level.

 

Last year Frazier was calling the defense, and he didn't like what he saw. This year it's McDermott directing things, and he's only slipped further. All the assistants & position coaches also have input, yet somehow a 6th & 7th round pick managed to earn their spots while the guy McDermott & Co. handpicked to take the reigns has fallen.

 

Again, they definitely did not want this. But better to correct a mistake rather than complicate one by making ANOTHER mistake & forcing an inferior player into the starting lineup due to draft status. Elam had chances in games. He had chances due to injuries. Even Benford was hurt for a while giving him a new opportunity to prove himself.

 

Yet here we are, with another camp & preseason under our belts & Elam is out there on ST. This isn't just a one time mistake or coaches having it out for him. The opportunities have been there. 

Yea and elam made an INT and a game ending PB vs Mia in playoffs

 

and elam made a red zone int off mahommes to win in kc that at the time set us up for cruise control for #1 seed 

 

just bizarre he’s where he’s at now. I’m chalking it up to sophomore slump- didn’t come into camp w his hair on fire 

[balln]

2 hours ago, Special K said:

 

Meanwhile, Devin Lloyd, the player the Bills should have drafted in the first found instead of Elam, is starting at MLB for the Jags and is primed to have a breakout season....oops.

That’s mcbeanes weakness. They hold onto “ their guys “ way too long. No way they would take a first rd LB when edmunds still here - a guy they traded up (I believe gave up 2 2nd Ed picks) to get and had a completely average nfl career 

 

Cody ford , AJE, Basham , Spencer brown , Zach moss ect ….. Nathan peterman 

[maddenboy]

4 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

He’s a great depth piece imo. People calling to trade him just expect ALL round 1 guys to be elite Start by year 2 game one.

i think the problem goes all the way back to here.   For players like Benford we are patient and then pleasantly surprised.

 

But to actually win the superbowl during your window, you cant draft 1st round projects (except QB, where there is an army dedicated to getting him ready asap).  Because 'upside' is a tiebreaker between 2 guys who can already help you Now.  Not to be used for a 1st rounder who doesnt start during the first snap of the first game.

 

Because the issue is not "is he a good player," or "is he gonna become one?"  And the issue is not whether we should trade him.  We shouldnt.

 

the issue is:  did McBeane make a mistake drafting Elam in the first round.  No matter what the cause or excuse.

 

yes.

 

[edited to add "during your window."   Since we should not be in team-building mode right now]

Edited August 27, 2023 by maddenboy

[5ths the charm]

5 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

They traded up to draft Elam.  Doesn’t sound like a “collective fingers crossed” move to me.  Especially with McCreary and Gordon still on the board.  I’d guess that they really liked him at the time.  

Tells you they have poor scouting for certain positions on the team.

47 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

Beane will see what is out there for sure. Lots of CB needy teams... I'm not sure playing him as CB4 in the final preseason game is the best way to maximize his value on the open market. I'm also not sure the Bills really want to deal him with all the secondary injuries they suffered last year. Not to mention the fact that Dane Jackson will be a UFA next off season. But all things considered the possibilities of trading Elam are definitely not zero. 

Trading him? They spent a first rounder, they can't let him go for anything other than a second, or keep him around to try and coach up.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

AJE was a 2nd rder coming out of a weird draft where players didn't get regular training camps.

 

Elam has elite measurables, played in the SEC, and was drafted knowing he was a bit of a project to fit our scheme. 

 

Depth alone he's valuable to this team this year (a SB expectation season) and that's ignoring the chance to develop a guy completely switching schemes. 

 

He's struggling to adapt, at our deepest position on the team. This would be inconceivably dumb!!! Don't hold your breath on a trade, Beane ain't that dumb either

Okay lmao see you in 3 years 

[BuffaloRebound]

It’s a coaching failure if a guy who was probably your best DB at the end of year as a rookie is CB4 coming out of preseason.  I guess we need to watch Dane get cooked by Rodgers and every other decent QB when the games actually mean something before McDermott is forced to turn back to Elam.  McDermott loves those lunch pail guys, but they ain’t getting you over the hump.  Gotta be able to coach up the talented guys.  

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

That’s not really true, though.  This team has been right on the cusp for 3 seasons.  When you’re that close to winning your first championship, everything you do is for need.  Once you’ve got one, you get to start planning for the long term.  McBeane doesn’t have the luxury of that.  They are all in right now.  I think you’re going to see an aggressive rebuild next offseason.  If they’d have won it in 2021 or 2022, they’d have done it this offseason.

It is true.  If you have a team that’s supposedly that good, anywhere you add a better player, makes the team better.  Passing on Creed Humphrey because you “need” pass rush, makes the team weaker. Drafting a project DB because you need a CB2, when you also have holes all over the OL etc, makes the team weaker.   They took guys looking at the future, just the opposite of what you are trying to say, they had to develop all these players at positions of need, instead of letting the draft come to them. 
 

There isn’t going to be an “aggressive rebuild”, there’s no money for it.  The consistent whiffs on finding any difference makers is killing this team.  Yes, they are ok, but they can’t get over the hump because Beane has drafted exactly zero difference makers outside of Allen. 

[Don Otreply]

My god man…, 🥱

[Ya Digg?]

6 hours ago, Virgil said:

I was going to wait until the game was over to make this exact post. 
 

I really think the Bills should take trade offers for him.  It’s not that he isn’t good. He just doesn’t fit our system.  
 

A team like the Ravens would love to have him and I’m sure there are other DB needy teams. 
 

Ideally, there’s a team out there with good OT or MLB depth that needs a DB, but this isn’t Madden. 
 

For me, if you can get a 2nd rounder, go for it 

Obviously the problem with trading him is now you are relying on someone like Alex Austin or Cam Lewis (gonna throw up in my mouth just mentioning him 🤮) to fill that 4th cb role. Who knows how Tre will respond this year and both Jackson and Benford got injured last year. To me, the Bills face too many good receivers to be giving up on him so soon

[HiMark]

Just because he's not Kyle Williams, doesn't make him John McCargo.

His day may yet come, and you need depth at that position.

[HiMark]

6 hours ago, Dan Darragh said:

Let me refine it.  I'd like to find out which guys posted that Edmunds wasn't worth keeping who are now posting about how worried they are about the MLB situation.  My guess is there's a lot of overlap.

This time last year there were posters with the opinion to let him go b/c Spector looked so natural, instinctive, at MLB.  That definitely happened on this board.

Last year we went replacement-level at cornerback.  This year we are doing it at MLB. It will show, but we will survive through an abundance of surrounding talent.

[HiMark]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Everything you said is true and a rational argument. 

Except you left the part out about the coaches making mistakes. What if McDermott really isn't that great at talent evaluation? I posted numerous examples of guys he played that were awful and others that were good and didn't play. 

What if he has some inherent bias that we don't know about? Beane straight up said Elam has an issue with practice. Well maybe the kid is better during games. 

Maybe Benford is a great #2 CB and it won't matter. Maybe Elam is just dumb and can't learn the defense. 

All we can do is sit back and watch. CB#2 is about the 5th most important issue this team is facing. They have solid depth and they should be fine whoever they put out there.

 

No need for that.  Besides, lots of smart, athletic players have washed out.

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Wrong. You should always draft for need. Torrence was a need. Kincaid was a need. Allen Edmunds Oliver Rousseau all need picks. 

Just becuase a need pick doesn't work out doesn't mean it is the wrong strategy.  A BPA philosophy is silly and is never actually followed by anyone. What if a DT or S was BPA this first/second round and they passed on a pass catcher and a guard for another DT or S?

A tiny MLB from Baylor was not a need. A backup RB was not a need. Last year the need was to get an OT or another OL. They failed and had to spend dollars on McGovern.

 

I like Cook, but Dylan Parham was my choice at 3, and he went next pick to LVR, locked in at LG.  Not sure he's good, though, that would mean watching a Raiders game.

[HappyCat]

7 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I still don’t understand this. I thought he was quite good at times last year. Had 2 huge ints

he's a very good player.  He may surprise us all in his 2nd year

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, balln said:

That’s mcbeanes weakness. They hold onto “ their guys “ way too long. No way they would take a first rd LB when edmunds still here - a guy they traded up (I believe gave up 2 2nd Ed picks) to get and had a completely average nfl career 

 

Cody ford , AJE, Basham , Spencer brown , Zach moss ect ….. Nathan peterman 

1 year for a first rounder is too long now? Lol this place rules 🤣