JA - “I’m trying to transition to being the guy that wins from the pocket”

[Dopey]

14 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Why are they messing with the most unstoppable player in the NFL?

Cam Newton.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:43 PM, Augie said:

 

It’s a Hot Pocket, straight out of the oven……. and he’s gonna burn the roof of his mouth! Has anyone ever landed on IR for that? 

Kevin Kolb probably 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Cam Newton.  

 

Not really a valid comparison. People try to make it but it really isn't. Newton got sacked and hit far more in the pocket and refs almost let it be open season on him and wouldn't throw roughing the passer flags.

 

It's a very poor comparison, IMO.

[Don Otreply]

13 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not really a valid comparison. People try to make it but it really isn't. Newton got sacked and hit far more in the pocket and refs almost let it be open season on him and wouldn't throw roughing the passer flags.

 

It's a very poor comparison, IMO.

It’s a conceptual comparison, on top of that they want more chances at the prize, it’s big picture thinking, 

[90sBills]

On 7/6/2023 at 12:50 PM, BillsFan619 said:

Go JA! Go Bills!

I hope Allen would do this next offseason. It seems like such an advantage for any offense.

 

https://www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2023/07/07/patrick-mahomes-offseason-training-quarterback-throwing-program

[C.Biscuit97]

52 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not really a valid comparison. People try to make it but it really isn't. Newton got sacked and hit far more in the pocket and refs almost let it be open season on him and wouldn't throw roughing the passer flags.

 

It's a very poor comparison, IMO.

Eh, I get your point but Allen tries to run over guys. I think people forgot how good Cam was. Set rookie passing records and won a MVP with Ted Ginn as his number 1 wr and then injuries killed him. 
 

it’s really hard because Allen’s running and trying to win every play make him special. But those hits will catch up. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 7/7/2023 at 6:28 AM, Big Turk said:

 

Don't forget the game is in NYC on 9/11

This is not good for Buffalo

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

I hope Allen would do this next offseason. It seems like such an advantage for any offense.

 

https://www.si.com/.amp/nfl/2023/07/07/patrick-mahomes-offseason-training-quarterback-throwing-program

 

 

Agree.........if year two of the 2021-2022 JA17 offseason method doesn't yield a Super Bowl win this season.......then we should hope Allen would instead adopt the habits of the QB's who have won 4 of the last 5 SB's instead.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Please don’t call him Ja… that guy can’t stay out of trouble 

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, HerdMentality said:

Ya. No.

 

You're not worth XXXXmillion $$ to be a pocket passer. Use the skills that separate you. You're a winner. Don't retreat because of blah blah blah criticism. Weak sauce for you and bad for a team that is paying you to be the thin edge of the wedge.

Those skills you're talking about, running skills, don't win Super Bowls.  See Newton, Lamar, Vick. Being the smartest passer in the pocket does.  See Brady, Montana, Mahomes.  

 

Josh needs to be an alite decision maker. When he's elite like Brady, Montana, and Mahomes, he will be better than any of them because of his arm and legs.  

[muppy]

I am on board with Josh Allen playing as long as possible wearing a Bills uniform. He has the physical attributes and mental smarts to win an AFC championship.  And even the Super Bowl with an effective OL,  dominant Defense,  adequate coaching and great special teams play.  And a bit of luck as far as health and officiating not pooping the bed in key situations and games. Piece of cake. /sarcasm

 

His longevity depends on some factors he cannot control. It is a very violent sport. If he becoming a pocket passer translates to he being available to play more I'd vote for that.  If he becoming a pocket passer will result in wins Everyone would vote for that too 

 

At this juncture of his career and the roster that has been assembled I believe this team has its best chance to achieve his destiny here in WNY. 

 

Noone would be happier than #17 if the Bills became a dominant  running team. Whatever works. Whatever achieves wins. Just Win Baby. Punto.

 

Go Bills!~!~!!!

[Big Turk]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Eh, I get your point but Allen tries to run over guys. I think people forgot how good Cam was. Set rookie passing records and won a MVP with Ted Ginn as his number 1 wr and then injuries killed him. 
 

it’s really hard because Allen’s running and trying to win every play make him special. But those hits will catch up. 

 

Allen delivers the blow usually on smaller players moving forward with full vision and is able to line them up as he is running toward them.

 

Far different from getting hit standing there where you may only have a half second to try and protect yourself or even be blindsided.

[Mikie2times]

It's funny, what seemingly gives him no limitations (his mobility) is the very thing that actually limits his ceiling. No matter how you slice it, the very best are the best in the pocket. The elites in that area are the legends. Nobody else. Brady, Montana at the highest of the rung. Burrow being of that style, just not pedigree at this time. Mahomes is probably the most different, but even with him, he wants to be mobile in the pocket vs flat run. I have always thought when it comes to a QB running it actually hurts development. It's something they go to when other things aren't working. We have seen that with Josh. But then a time comes where you can no longer use it. Teams take it away or its late in a game. Running is not something a wise QB builds a large foundation around. I think Josh actually can mature into a more true pocket guy. For his development, even more than his health, I hope we see him do that.    

[78thealltimegreat]

6 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

This is not good for Buffalo

Any game played in New York around 9-11 was going to be difficult. But after the first quarter it’s all just football 

[Beck Water]

22 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not really a valid comparison. People try to make it but it really isn't. Newton got sacked and hit far more in the pocket and refs almost let it be open season on him and wouldn't throw roughing the passer flags.

 

It's a very poor comparison, IMO.

 

So your argument is that comparison to Newton is invalid because of the whims of the refs?

 

I'd like to find a source for stats on QB hits behind the LOS - don't have one.

But in his 10 years in Carolina, Newton was sacked an average of 30 times per year. 

In 5 years, Allen has been sacked 150 times (30 times per year)

Allen has rushed 546 times (109 times per year), meaning he's taken that many hits.

In his 10 years in Carolina, Newton rushed 981 times (98 times per year).

 

Those data would seem to indicate similar amounts of physical punishment.

 

Pretty sure Allen doesn't draw a flag every single time he's hit after he throws, either - and when he runs, he's very physical.  He stiff arms guys, runs over them, jumps over them.

[Gugny]

23 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not really a valid comparison. People try to make it but it really isn't. Newton got sacked and hit far more in the pocket and refs almost let it be open season on him and wouldn't throw roughing the passer flags.

 

It's a very poor comparison, IMO.

 

46 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So your argument is that comparison to Newton is invalid because of the whims of the refs?

 

I'd like to find a source for stats on QB hits behind the LOS - don't have one.

But in his 10 years in Carolina, Newton was sacked an average of 30 times per year. 

In 5 years, Allen has been sacked 150 times (30 times per year)

Allen has rushed 546 times (109 times per year), meaning he's taken that many hits.

In his 10 years in Carolina, Newton rushed 981 times (98 times per year).

 

Those data would seem to indicate similar amounts of physical punishment.

 

Pretty sure Allen doesn't draw a flag every single time he's hit after he throws, either - and when he runs, he's very physical.  He stiff arms guys, runs over them, jumps over them.

I think, overall, it’s a fair comparison. 
 

But I do agree with Turk re: the refs. 
 

I don’t have specific dates/games, but I do remember A LOT of egregious late hits and brutal hits (RTP) on Newton for which no flags were thrown. 
 

I don’t think Allen has experienced anything close to that. 

[Don Otreply]

The point of Josh’s statement is not that he won’t run the ball anymore, what he is aspiring to achieve is to grow his “craft” as a QB, such as; seeing the field better, taking what defenses give him, keeping the opposing offense off the field, etc etc.  Josh has said Tom Brady was a QB he looked up to when he was younger and Josh, like everyone else knows damn well Brady wasn’t out running anyone, yet he won repeatedly not running the ball. The writing is on the wall and Josh appears to have read it, at least that is my hope.., 

[Bronxbomber21]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:26 PM, boyst said:

9 of their 11 starters returning is big. I'm hoping the NFL stops this ***** with Gardner being allowed to mame offenders.

75 yard td pass from Allen to Diggs on the 1st play of the season. DIGGS catches Sauce on a nasty double move that pops Gardner achilles and sidelines him for the whole season 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

So your argument is that comparison to Newton is invalid because of the whims of the refs?

 

I'd like to find a source for stats on QB hits behind the LOS - don't have one.

But in his 10 years in Carolina, Newton was sacked an average of 30 times per year. 

In 5 years, Allen has been sacked 150 times (30 times per year)

Allen has rushed 546 times (109 times per year), meaning he's taken that many hits.

In his 10 years in Carolina, Newton rushed 981 times (98 times per year).

 

Those data would seem to indicate similar amounts of physical punishment.

 

Pretty sure Allen doesn't draw a flag every single time he's hit after he throws, either - and when he runs, he's very physical.  He stiff arms guys, runs over them, jumps over them.

 

Not all players are the same when it comes to injury proneness. Making assumptions that because X player got hurt doing something that Y player will also be hurt doing the same thing doesn't really make any sense.

 

Do we do that for any other positions? No.

[K-9]

Being a pocket passer so he can be “safer” is the last reason I’d want Allan to become one because it is from being hit in the pocket that most QB injuries occur, including the one that ruined Newton’s career, ironically. 
 

The best reason for Allen to stay in the pocket is simply because it’s from there that most of the field is available for him to attack. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not all players are the same when it comes to injury proneness. Making assumptions that because X player got hurt doing something that Y player will also be hurt doing the same thing doesn't really make any sense.

 

Do we do that for any other positions? No.

We do it w RB a lot

 

Injuries or effectiveness following a 370+carry season, 1800+ carries overall...lots of data on RBs

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

The point of Josh’s statement is not that he won’t run the ball anymore, what he is aspiring to achieve is to grow his “craft” as a QB, such as; seeing the field better, taking what defenses give him, keeping the opposing offense off the field, etc etc.  Josh has said Tom Brady was a QB he looked up to when he was younger and Josh, like everyone else knows damn well Brady wasn’t out running anyone, yet he won repeatedly not running the ball. The writing is on the wall and Josh appears to have read it, at least that is my hope.., 

Cleats first Brady and kick em the nards Tom. That Brady ?

jk

Josh will get better seeing the open guy if he sets his mind to it, when plays are breaking down.

Hoping he also gets better protections this year !

[Billl]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:38 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Eh, I get your point but Allen tries to run over guys. I think people forgot how good Cam was. Set rookie passing records and won a MVP with Ted Ginn as his number 1 wr and then injuries killed him. 
 

it’s really hard because Allen’s running and trying to win every play make him special. But those hits will catch up. 

It’s a little ironic that so many people seem to think it’s an insult to compare Josh to Cam simply because their memories of Cam are shaped by seeing him play for several seasons after cumulative punishment turned him into a shell of his former self.  He was on a HOF trajectory at Josh’s age.

[Mr. WEO]

On 7/8/2023 at 9:42 AM, Dopey said:

Cam Newton.  

 

History proved him quite stoppable.  He was mediocre after his 2015 season.

 

On 7/8/2023 at 12:38 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Eh, I get your point but Allen tries to run over guys. I think people forgot how good Cam was. Set rookie passing records and won a MVP with Ted Ginn as his number 1 wr and then injuries killed him. 
 

it’s really hard because Allen’s running and trying to win every play make him special. But those hits will catch up. 

 

In his rookie season, he threw a lot of yards in the first half of the season, then petered out.  He threw for only 21 TDs vs 17 ints.  They were 0-10 in games where he had a turnover.  

 

Lamar Jackson's MVP was far more impressive (WR1 was rookie Marquise Brown).....and people yawn about the guy now.

[iccrewman112]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:57 PM, Haslett_Stomp said:

 

Allen had one of his better games last year in the opener against the Rams so not too worried about this.

a game where they utilized high percentage short throws, that opened up a couple double moves for TDs.

[Big Turk]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

We do it w RB a lot

 

Injuries or effectiveness following a 370+carry season, 1800+ carries overall...lots of data on RBs

 

Except if you are Eric Dickerson or a few others right? Do teams even hand the ball off to all running backs combined 370 times in a season anymore let alone one back??

Edited July 10, 2023 by Big Turk

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I think, overall, it’s a fair comparison. 
 

But I do agree with Turk re: the refs. 
 

I don’t have specific dates/games, but I do remember A LOT of egregious late hits and brutal hits (RTP) on Newton for which no flags were thrown. 
 

I don’t think Allen has experienced anything close to that. 

 

You guys may be correct.  Which would totally suck, if that's what shortened his career.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 hours ago, Billl said:

It’s a little ironic that so many people seem to think it’s an insult to compare Josh to Cam simply because their memories of Cam are shaped by seeing him play for several seasons after cumulative punishment turned him into a shell of his former self.  He was on a HOF trajectory at Josh’s age.

 

The comparison isn't great. Even running ability, Josh has a lot more in his arsenal. Cam was more of a straight-line power and speed guy. Allen has that plus some of the wiggle and agility that guys like Lamar and Mahomes have. He's a better runner than Cam. And we haven't even gotten to the passing yet.

 

Cam's best season, 2015 was a total outlier from all of his other seasons. Correct, he was still on a HOF trajectory at that point which was his 5th year. But Allen has been far more consistent with the same 2015 highs as Cam. Any of Allen's 2020, 2021 or 2022 seasons are very much on the level of Cam's 2015 season. Essentially, Allen has consistently matched Cam's best season three times whereas Cam never came close to matching his own best season.

 

If you look at each players first 5 years in the league their overall numbers are pretty similar but Allen still has a pretty big advantage in total TD's. He has 17 more than Cam in two less games played. 

 

But if you take Newton's three best seasons and compare them to Allen's three best seasons, Allen really separates himself. The TD advantage climbs to 20 and the yardage advantage jumps to around 2,000 yards. 

 

But more important in the comparison of the two is the trends within each players first 5 seasons. Allen has been on an upward trajectory since his rookie season. He has plateaued at a high level in years 3, 4 and 5. Meanwhile, Newtons best and second-best years had a large discrepancy. His second-best year was arguably his rookie year. Newton never had an upward trajectory with a sustained plateau. 

 

[Shaw66]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:05 PM, Mikie2times said:

It's funny, what seemingly gives him no limitations (his mobility) is the very thing that actually limits his ceiling. No matter how you slice it, the very best are the best in the pocket. The elites in that area are the legends. Nobody else. Brady, Montana at the highest of the rung. Burrow being of that style, just not pedigree at this time. Mahomes is probably the most different, but even with him, he wants to be mobile in the pocket vs flat run. I have always thought when it comes to a QB running it actually hurts development. It's something they go to when other things aren't working. We have seen that with Josh. But then a time comes where you can no longer use it. Teams take it away or its late in a game. Running is not something a wise QB builds a large foundation around. I think Josh actually can mature into a more true pocket guy. For his development, even more than his health, I hope we see him do that.    

I think this is the wrong perspective on Josh.  What gives him no limitations is his arm. He could be the best purr thrower ever.  Running is an important, additional feature, but if he never ran at all but he learned to manage the game and read the field like Brady, he'd be the best QB ever, because Brady could only dream of throwing like Josh.  

 

Michael Vick was the best running QB ever.  Josh never will run like him.  Vick had an excellent arm. But he never was a great QB because he never became a top level decision making pocket passer.

 

Josh has the brains to be elite in the pocket, and if he learns to be that, his arm will make him a deadly QB. His running will be an incredible bonus.   If he never learns, his running won't make him elite, just like running never made Vick elite.  

Edited July 10, 2023 by Shaw66

[Billl]

5 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The comparison isn't great. Even running ability, Josh has a lot more in his arsenal. Cam was more of a straight-line power and speed guy. Allen has that plus some of the wiggle and agility that guys like Lamar and Mahomes have. He's a better runner than Cam. And we haven't even gotten to the passing yet.

 

Cam's best season, 2015 was a total outlier from all of his other seasons. Correct, he was still on a HOF trajectory at that point which was his 5th year. But Allen has been far more consistent with the same 2015 highs as Cam. Any of Allen's 2020, 2021 or 2022 seasons are very much on the level of Cam's 2015 season. Essentially, Allen has consistently matched Cam's best season three times whereas Cam never came close to matching his own best season.

 

If you look at each players first 5 years in the league their overall numbers are pretty similar but Allen still has a pretty big advantage in total TD's. He has 17 more than Cam in two less games played. 

 

But if you take Newton's three best seasons and compare them to Allen's three best seasons, Allen really separates himself. The TD advantage climbs to 20 and the yardage advantage jumps to around 2,000 yards. 

 

But more important in the comparison of the two is the trends within each players first 5 seasons. Allen has been on an upward trajectory since his rookie season. He has plateaued at a high level in years 3, 4 and 5. Meanwhile, Newtons best and second-best years had a large discrepancy. His second-best year was arguably his rookie year. Newton never had an upward trajectory with a sustained plateau. 

 

Josh is the better player.  I’m not disputing that.  But they’re very similar, and the talent level is FAR closer than most on here are giving Cam credit for.  If Josh were to take a serious injury this season that impacted him for the rest of his career, they’d be remembered nearly identically other than Cam has an MVP and played in a Super Bowl.  Check out the first minute of this video if you’ve forgotten just how amazing peak Cam really was.

 

 

[Buckets]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:04 PM, GoBills808 said:

Longevity

Allen is built like a LB he'll be fine.

[Gregg]

8 minutes ago, Buckets said:

Allen is built like a LB he'll be fine.

 

Josh also said a few months ago that he can't keep getting hit like he has been. If Josh is saying it, then you know these shots are starting to or will start to wear him down.

[BullBuchanan]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:23 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen injuries just when running:

 

Broken clavicle ( knocked out for season at Wyoming)

concussion (knocked out of close game versus Patriots and Barkley was putrid in relief)

toe injury (versus Tampa 2021)

So, two minor injuries where he missed less than a full game and had no long term impact to performance. Sorry, I won't consider either of those things to be significant injuries that back up your argument.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I think Josh can do it but he'll have to

 

1. Become a master of Dorseys offense.  Know the playbook better than Dorsey.
2. Recognize defensive coverages and disguised defensive coverages (cover 0, 1, 2 and 3)
3. Be able to audible to a better play (see step 1) once he does step 2.  Audible from a run to pass or pass to run at the very least.  How much audibling did Josh do last season ?
4. Move his RB around for better blocking once he recognizes the blitzing LB.  The Mike, Sam, etc

Running is a result of the play breaking down at the last second and not being able to change the play or not recognizing what the defense is doing.

 

Steps 1-4 is how immobile QB's win superbowls.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by JakeFrommStateFarm

[Punching Bag]

17 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I think Josh can do it but he'll have to

 

1. Become a master of Dorseys offense.  Know the playbook better than Dorsey.
2. Recognize defensive coverages and disguised defensive coverages (cover 0, 1, 2 and 3)
3. Be able to audible to a better play (see step 1) once he does step 2.  Audible from a run to pass or pass to run at the very least.  How much audibling did Josh do last season ?
4. Move his RB around for better blocking once he recognizes the blitzing LB.  The Mike, Sam, etc

Running is a result of the play breaking down at the last second and not being able to change the play or not recognizing what the defense is doing.

 

Steps 1-4 is how immobile QB's win superbowls.

 

 

 

 

He also needs to bond with Dorsey like he did Coach Diabolical.  Coach Daboll used to have an idea in middle of night and even in offseason he would call up Josh to hash out idea and Josh would do the same.  After the number of times it was reported I am surprised the NFLPA did not file a complaint.  

 

I think part of the degrading of the offense is not just losing Coach Brian Daboll and Josh's elbow injury but losing secondary staff like Shea Tierney.  Losing Davis Webb previously for he was the glue between parts of the team.  Bills wanted him as QB coach but he wanted another chance of being a NFL QB.  I do not think Dorsey has developed the contacts like Coach Daboll had.

[Royale with Cheese]

20 hours ago, Billl said:

It’s a little ironic that so many people seem to think it’s an insult to compare Josh to Cam simply because their memories of Cam are shaped by seeing him play for several seasons after cumulative punishment turned him into a shell of his former self.  He was on a HOF trajectory at Josh’s age.

 

It is an insult because Cam never developed into being a great pocket passer.  He had one great year and a few above average years along with some terrible years.

 

Josh has proven he can beat you from the pocket so even if his legs go with age, he will still be effective.  Cam, once you took away his legs, he's been terrible.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

So, two minor injuries where he missed less than a full game and had no long term impact to performance. Sorry, I won't consider either of those things to be significant injuries that back up your argument.

 

 

No need to apologize.   These are easy facts for anyone with any conviction at all about being truthful/accurate to find.......so it was already understood that your ignorance was by choice.    I understand why some fans want to live in denial about the added risks.

[Franco_92]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I think Josh can do it but he'll have to

 

1. Become a master of Dorseys offense.  Know the playbook better than Dorsey.
2. Recognize defensive coverages and disguised defensive coverages (cover 0, 1, 2 and 3)
3. Be able to audible to a better play (see step 1) once he does step 2.  Audible from a run to pass or pass to run at the very least.  How much audibling did Josh do last season ?
4. Move his RB around for better blocking once he recognizes the blitzing LB.  The Mike, Sam, etc

Running is a result of the play breaking down at the last second and not being able to change the play or not recognizing what the defense is doing.

 

Steps 1-4 is how immobile QB's win superbowls.

 

 

I promise you Josh already does these things and that it is impossible to succeed as an NFL QB if you aren't doing them at a very high level 

[C.Biscuit97]

8 hours ago, Buckets said:

Allen is built like a LB he'll be fine.

Have you ever played football haha?  This is the most simplistic, over generalized I have ever hurt. You get repeated hit high school players, it’s adds up. Much less by nfl players. Big Ben was built like Allen and go to the point where he couldn’t move. 

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No need to apologize.   These are easy facts for anyone with any conviction at all about being truthful/accurate to find.......so it was already understood that your ignorance was by choice.    I understand why some fans want to live in denial about the added risks.

risks that he might miss a quarter of football over 5 years running the ball vs the multiple games and season long impact of two UCL injuries sustained in the pocket?

Have you even figured out that you're wrong yet?

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I promise you Josh already does these things and that it is impossible to succeed as an NFL QB if you aren't doing them at a very high level 

He doesn't though. There have been multiple breakdowns on his limitations with coverage disguises. Here's one: