Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[Don Otreply]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, injury's with him are a valid concern. I will add that other players have had injury issues before coming to Buffalo and the excellent facilities and staff have helped some of them lessen the frequency.  Gaines, Brown, Johnson, Poyer, etc to name a few.  No guarantees of course, but Harty is still a better football player.  

 

Here you go again, lumping me into Crowder stuff.  Go check my history, during training camp I said Crowder is the best slot guy on the roster in camp last year IF he can stay healthy.  I had no preconceived notions that he was going to for sure stay healthy.  And in fact, if you go back to preseason, I was very anti-McKenzie as a starter and thought Shakir would emerge as the starter by end of season because I felt an injury to Crowder at some point would open up that door.

 

Big difference though, is Harty is not coming in to have a heavy role like a starting slot WR that they hoped Crowder could handle.  So if Harty goes down, its not the end of the world for the offense like when Crowder got hurt and we got stuck with McKenzie as the starter by default who sucked.  

 

Hard disagree on Sherfield = Kumerow 2.0.  I have followed this kid since he was in SF, he flat out beat out Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo by outplaying them both all camp and preseason, but then was told he wouldn't start or play much because they had too much invested in those other guys and they wanted to see them play.  Not saying Sherfield is some future pro-bowler, but Kumerow is not a regular contributor in the NFL as a WR.

 

You tend to cherry pick a play or two you don't like and then project that over a players whole career.  I have seen Diggs drop TD passes too, but it didn't define him, so why do you focus so hard on one or two plays as if those completely define that player and ignore the other attributes they bring to the table?

 

 

 

 

Bado being Bado, he is generally not enthusiastic about most personnel acquisitions, it’s kinda how he is in his posts, with the occasional glimmers of actual enthusiasm mixed in, 

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't disagree that Hopkins would do all that, as I have stated many times over, I would love to get Hopkins here.  All I am saying is that I feel better about the offense around Josh right now than I did about the offense around him in the Bengals game.  

 

And, to be honest, I am not counting on them to be much more than they have been.  Diggs, Davis, and Knox are still here, they are going to have the biggest roles in this offense still.  Sherfield doesn't have to be more than he has been in the past, he just has to be more than Kumerow which isn't much.  Harty doesn't even have to give us more than McKenzie, because the slot position is gonna be handled by Shakir, Kincaid, and probably some Harty.  So Harty doesn't have to do much more than he has.  

 

You see that is the point...this notion they have to be a lot more than they have or the rookie has to have some huge season is just the wrong way to look at it.  We need to be collectively better as an offense, and that means better OL protection, getting more out of our RB's, as well as mixing in the new with the old in terms of the weapons around Josh.  

 

That is why I am not concerned on if we get Hopkins or not, there is enough talent on this football team to play as a unit on the field for this offense to once again be the #1 offense in the NFL.  Over the last 3 seasons, this offense is the 2nd highest scoring offense in the NFL to KC by only 5 total points.  Not to mention we are 2-1 against them the last 2 seasons and should be 3-0 if not for an inept defensive meltdown in the playoffs.  

 

Meanwhile, our defense has literally crapped the bed in every post season loss we have had in the Allen era. 

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

[Solomon Grundy]

50 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I mean if you add Hopkins, its still all on Josh to read the defenses and make the plays to get him the ball.  

 

I honestly don't think we will need to rely on Allen to do everything this year, with or without Hopkins.  The biggest issue last year was OL protection, that has been upgraded as has the RB's and weapons around Josh.  

Another issue was the untimely drops. Drive sustaining drops. Rather it was Knox, Gabe, Lil Dirty. Those drive killers weren't happening when Beasley was at his best. Hopkins would be a better version of Cole

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

 

Agreed, and they need Dorsey to absolutely be better too.  Dorsey really struggled utilizing the talent on the roster last year and integrating them on the field.  But he was a rookie OC, so the hope is with a year under his belt he will better adjust this year and find ways to use the talent that is here properly.  

[Einstein's Dog]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

But it doesn't have to be DHop or nothing.  The plan may still be to possibly put another $10M into the WR2 if necessary.   The draft is generally for the future while FA is for the present.

[GoBills808]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Huh?  Not spend on offense?  Because we haven't signed Hopkins?  

 

We paid Allen, Diggs, and Knox butt loads of money.  They spent a lot (a first and 4th) just to get Diggs.  They just used our first round pick on a receiving weapon at TE and our 2nd round pick on an OG.  They spent money on the OL, more WR's, and then added 2 more accomplished RB's to compliment Cook and Hines. 

 

I mean most teams don't go out and pay top WR money to have 2 elite WR's, especially teams with big QB contracts.  Teams like Cincy have them because they are on rookie contracts and so is their QB.  Chargers did it because their QB was on a rookie deal and Allen will gone by the time they pay Justin.  Miami paid Hill cuz Tua was on a rookie deal and so is Waddle.  

 

Let me ask you this...can you name one team who is paying top tier money to a QB and a WR1 who went out and signed another WR1 opposite him for top tier money too?  

 

I mean no disrespect at all, but this notion we arent spending or investing in the offense just isn't accurate and not reflective of what the Bills have done or what other teams have done in the same situations.  

I mean there aren't many teams that fit that exact scenario

 

But in terms of cap$$ spent on offense Bills spend less than contenders like Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals etc

 

 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

are you quoting from msn or is this you? 
 

And who exactly is saying Cupp is potentially available at msn?

Blockbuster Bills Trade Proposal Ships Aging All-Pro WR to Buffalo

Story by Nathan Dougherty • 3h ago

 

MSN story, no link

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But it doesn't have to be DHop or nothing.  The plan may still be to possibly put another $10M into the WR2 if necessary.   The draft is generally for the future while FA is for the present.

First they already have two first round picks invested in receivers - Diggs and Kincaid.   And who is this $10 million man?  The only receiver who is going to be a serious upgrade over Davis is a true #1.  Who is that, and can you get him for $10 million?

[BillsFanForever19]

For the millionth time, you can have all the concerns you want regarding Harty's injury history. But it doesn't change the fact that Beane evaluated him and assumed that risk. 

 

He didn't target him on Day 1 of Free Agency and sign him to a 2 year deal thinking he can't rely on him.

 

Many of you may have wanted Davis outright replaced, but that was never in the cards. The plan was always to give him another hopefully healthy season, but also bring in more weapons for Josh and competition/insurance in the event Davis doesn't progress or regresses. That's why he signed Harty and Drafted Kincaid.

 

If Davis continues to underperform (or even if he doesn't), some of his targets are going to go Kincaid, Knox, and/or Harty's way.

 

If there are injuries in Training Camp, Pre-Season, or Mid Season - Beane will act accordingly. But he made moves for 4 different pass catching weapons this offseason. We already have 6 WR's who are locks for the 53.

 

Beane's lack of urgency on Hopkins clearly says he likes what he's done and is comfortable with what he has. You can poke holes in the players he's brought in all you want. But that's what he chose to go with and he's not going to keep bringing in guys in because you don't think they're good enough.

Edited July 15, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Alphadawg7]

52 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean there aren't many teams that fit that exact scenario

 

But in terms of cap$$ spent on offense Bills spend less than contenders like Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals etc

 

 

Bengals have all their top 3 players of Burrow, Chase and Higgins on rookie deals, how are they spending more than us?  That’s not even comparable.  
 

KC got rid of Hill rather than pay him, and filled his spot with mediocre players.  
 

Ravens have deprived Lamar of weapons his whole career and now just paid OBJ less than we pay Diggs.  
 

Sorry, not picking on you, but none of this is accurate either.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Bengals have all their top 3 players of Burrow, Chase and Higgins on rookie deals, how are they spending more than us?  That’s not even comparable.  
 

KC got rid of Hill rather than pay him, and filled his spot with mediocre players.  
 

Ravens have deprived Lamar of weapons his whole career and now just paid OBJ less than we pay Diggs.  
 

Sorry, not picking on you, but none of this is accurate either.  

I dunno I was just browsing this

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

It may not be accurate but I thought it was interesting if true

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

Many of you may have wanted Davis outright replaced, but that was never in the cards.

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

Well, just to quibble, pursuing OBJ and DHop is not about his "wanting" to replace Davis. He wants to upgrade every position, and he's said that whenever talent may be available that would be an upgrade, he will pursue it if he can.  

 

That's different from Beane thinking he needs to replace Davis.  

 

[BillsFanForever19]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:53 PM, HappyDays said:

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

 

He pursued OBJ and now Hopkins, half heartedly. He was only interested in OBJ (and now Hopkins as well) at a low risk, low priced, potentially high reward investment to add to the weapons we have. 

 

When OBJ couldn't be gotten at a bargain, he was no longer interested. And if Hopkins doesn't want to come at a bargain, he won't be coming here either. At a bargain price, they're not guaranteed to get more reps than Davis.

 

His pursuit of these two does not scream urgency and fear for Davis. It screams due diligence and wanting to add some more weapons into the rotation, if he can get them at a bargain. Not necessarily outright replace. And he's since Drafted Kincaid and signed Harty. So the urgency is even less now.

 

Trying to get either "at the right price" is not the move of someone who is panicking and desiring of outright replacing Davis. If it was of the importance to him you believe it to be, he'd have paid the price they're asking for without hesitation. 

 

This idea that he's stressing it and a move is going to happen, he just hasn't closed the deal yet, seems to me to be more of wishful thinking from select fans than actual reality. Especially after the moves he's made this offseason.

Edited July 16, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[LABILLBACKER]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I dunno I was just browsing this

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

It may not be accurate but I thought it was interesting if true

Nothing shocking here. Since Josh's rookie year the Bills have spent more on defense 6 straight years. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Nothing shocking here. Since Josh's rookie year the Bills have spent more on defense 6 straight years. 

Yup second in the league in defensive spending

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, injury's with him are a valid concern. I will add that other players have had injury issues before coming to Buffalo and the excellent facilities and staff have helped some of them lessen the frequency.  Gaines, Brown, Johnson, Poyer, etc to name a few.  No guarantees of course, but Harty is still a better football player.  

 

Here you go again, lumping me into Crowder stuff.  Go check my history, during training camp I said Crowder is the best slot guy on the roster in camp last year IF he can stay healthy.  I had no preconceived notions that he was going to for sure stay healthy.  And in fact, if you go back to preseason, I was very anti-McKenzie as a starter and thought Shakir would emerge as the starter by end of season because I felt an injury to Crowder at some point would open up that door.

 

Big difference though, is Harty is not coming in to have a heavy role like a starting slot WR that they hoped Crowder could handle.  So if Harty goes down, its not the end of the world for the offense like when Crowder got hurt and we got stuck with McKenzie as the starter by default who sucked.  

 

Hard disagree on Sherfield = Kumerow 2.0.  I have followed this kid since he was in SF, he flat out beat out Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo by outplaying them both all camp and preseason, but then was told he wouldn't start or play much because they had too much invested in those other guys and they wanted to see them play.  Not saying Sherfield is some future pro-bowler, but Kumerow is not a regular contributor in the NFL as a WR.

 

You tend to cherry pick a play or two you don't like and then project that over a players whole career.  I have seen Diggs drop TD passes too, but it didn't define him, so why do you focus so hard on one or two plays as if those completely define that player and ignore the other attributes they bring to the table?

 

 

 

 

 

 

My contention with the points you are trying to make is the absurd hyperbole.

 

If you are saying Sherfield is better than Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo Samuel then you are, in fact, saying he is "some future pro-bowler".    Because those dudes are legit studs........arguably the top 2 options on the team with the most offensive weapons around their QB in the NFL.   Absurd take.    Sherfield has averaged less than 200 yards per season in his career.

 

And you need perspective on offseason/summer evaluations.   Nobody outperformed Jake Kumerow in Bills camp in 2021.   He was absolutely killing it.   When the real games started he couldn't get on the field because real NFL games are a lot different than camp and preseason.    

 

Could Shakir be much improved this season?  Sure.  It's a maybe that you declare is a FACT just because of experience.   That's ignorance.  Plenty of receivers don't get better in year 2.  Here are a couple notable Bills examples:

 

1) Robert Foster 540 yards receiving as a rookie.......just 60 total yards in year 2 in the same amount of games.

 

2) Josh Reed......looked like a future All Pro as a rookie........catch % dropped 7% and yards per target dropped precipitously from 8.6 to 5.7......and he remained a JAG the rest of his career.

 

 You are confusing your HOPE with fact...........we all hope these guys exceed their production of last season and their careers..........but history tells us very few, if any, will.

[Alphadawg7]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My contention with the points you are trying to make is the absurd hyperbole.

 

If you are saying Sherfield is better than Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo Samuel then you are, in fact, saying he is "some future pro-bowler".    Because those dudes are legit studs........arguably the top 2 options on the team with the most offensive weapons around their QB in the NFL.   Absurd take.    Sherfield has averaged less than 200 yards per season in his career.

 

And you need perspective on offseason/summer evaluations.   Nobody outperformed Jake Kumerow in Bills camp in 2021.   He was absolutely killing it.   When the real games started he couldn't get on the field because real NFL games are a lot different than camp and preseason.    

 

Could Shakir be much improved this season?  Sure.  It's a maybe that you declare is a FACT just because of experience.   That's ignorance.  Plenty of receivers don't get better in year 2.  Here are a couple notable Bills examples:

 

1) Robert Foster 540 yards receiving as a rookie.......just 60 total yards in year 2 in the same amount of games.

 

2) Josh Reed......looked like a future All Pro as a rookie........catch % dropped 7% and yards per target dropped precipitously from 8.6 to 5.7......and he remained a JAG the rest of his career.

 

 You are confusing your HOPE with fact...........we all hope these guys exceed their production of last season and their careers..........but history tells us very few, if any, will.

I didn’t say Sherfield was better than Brandon or Deebo, I said when they were rookies he beat them out decisively and still wasn’t given a chance to play because they just invested high draft picks in the other two.  Coaches literally told him he deserves to start but the call came down he won’t be as they want to look at the other guys who they used high picks on.  
 

My issue with the arguments you’re making is that you don’t actually know anything about these players  beyond googling stats, and that is the issue I originally brought up.  Stat sheets alone lack context.  if you actually dig into the player, their story, abilities, weaknesses, tape, etc you will know a lot more about them to make more informed opinions on who they are as a player and how they might fit into the team taking over someone else’s role who is now gone.

 

Foster got in the doghouse and didn’t see the field.  That’s why he didn’t do anything in his 2nd year.  
 

Lol, no one thought Josh Reed was a future pro bowler after his rookie year 😂😂😂 And if they did, maybe they should stop drinking while making evaluations.  That honestly might be the most ridiculous comment I’ve read in a while lol.  
 

Sherfield is without question a better WR than Kumerow.  In SF he was behind Deebo and Aiyuk…in Miami behind Hill and Waddle.  He’s found ways to contribute even behind pro bowl level players.   Kumerow can’t even get on the field on teams who needed WR help.  In GB, Rodgers loved him and he still couldn’t get on the field.  In a pass happy offense in Buffalo, he couldn’t get on the field even when there were injuries or struggles by other WRs.  So the coaches on every team Kumerow has been on don’t seem to think much of him as a WR, so I’ll trust their opinions and what I have seen from him rather than you just saying otherwise for the sake of complaining about Sherfield.  

Edited July 15, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Einstein's Dog]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

First they already have two first round picks invested in receivers - Diggs and Kincaid.   And who is this $10 million man?  The only receiver who is going to be a serious upgrade over Davis is a true #1.  Who is that, and can you get him for $10 million?

To get an upgrade in the $10M budget range it looks like the Bills FO may need to wait for an in-season move.

 

If a team starts poorly and goes into rebuild mode then a trade is possible.  

 

Candidates include:  my favorite M Evans (root for Tampa to lose early), Jeudy, M Thomas, one of the Raiders WRs Renfro.  Maybe A Thielen - although he just signed.  T Lockett is another.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

To get an upgrade in the $10M budget range it looks like the Bills FO may need to wait for an in-season move.

 

If a team starts poorly and goes into rebuild mode then a trade is possible.  

 

Candidates include:  my favorite M Evans (root for Tampa to lose early), Jeudy, M Thomas, one of the Raiders WRs Renfro.  Maybe A Thielen - although he just signed.  T Lockett is another.

Definitely Evans, maybe Thomas, maybe Lockett.  I don't see the others as major upgrades.  

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I didn’t say Sherfield was better than Brandon or Deebo, I said when they were rookies he beat them out decisively and still wasn’t given a chance to play because they just invested high draft picks in the other two.  Coaches literally told him he deserves to start but the call came down he won’t be as they want to look at the other guys who they used high picks on.  
 

My issue with the arguments you’re making is that you don’t actually know anything about these players  beyond googling stats, and that is the issue I originally brought up.  Stat sheets alone lack context.  if you actually dig into the player, their story, abilities, weaknesses, tape, etc you will know a lot more about them to make more informed opinions on who they are as a player and how they might fit into the team taking over someone else’s role who is now gone.

 

Foster got in the doghouse and didn’t see the field.  That’s why he didn’t do anything in his 2nd year.  
 

Lol, no one thought Josh Reed was a future pro bowler after his rookie year 😂😂😂 And if they did, maybe they should stop drinking while making evaluations.  That honestly might be the most ridiculous comment I’ve read in a while lol.  
 

Sherfield is without question a better WR than Kumerow.  In SF he was behind Deebo and Aiyuk…in Miami behind Hill and Waddle.  He’s found ways to contribute even behind pro bowl level players.   Kumerow can’t even get on the field on teams who needed WR help.  In GB, Rodgers loved him and he still couldn’t get on the field.  In a pass happy offense in Buffalo, he couldn’t get on the field even when there were injuries or struggles by other WRs.  So the coaches on every team Kumerow has been on don’t seem to think much of him as a WR, so I’ll trust their opinions and what I have seen from him rather than you just saying otherwise for the sake of complaining about Sherfield.  

 

 

Again.......Kumerow was the top WR for the Bills in camp in 2021.    It just doesn't mean anything that Sherfield played well in the summer of 2021 when you first noticed him.   He's averaged 190 yards per SEASON in his 5 year career.    Yes, you read that right.   He wasn't a newbie when you saw him in SF.   He played 3 years in Arizona and after a better statistical rookie year than the disappointing Khalil Shakir had last season he disappeared from offensive football altogether for the next 3 years.

 

Regarding Josh Reed...........the Bills traded a 90+ catch 1200+ yard receiver in Peerless Price and the prevailing opinion was that they would be fine because Reed was going to be a better all around receiver.    He was seen as a steal of a draft pick at the top of round 2 and that his Biletnikoff award was no fluke.   I disagreed and felt it was a dumb decision to trade Price........but in fairness Reed was great and didn't drop a catchable ball as a rookie.   And he was still tremendous at getting open after that..........but he got the yips in year two and his promising career went to sh!t.

 

So don't tell me about knowing NFL players.........you don't even know or remember players from the Bills.    That's clear from your takes in this thread.

Edited July 15, 2023 by BADOLBILZ
correction Sherfield has been trash not a 3,000 yard per season receiver

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again.......Kumerow was the top WR for the Bills in camp in 2021.    It just doesn't mean anything that Sherfield played well in the summer of 2021 when you first noticed him.   He's averaged 190 yards per game in his 5 year career.    Yes, you read that right.   He wasn't a newbie when you saw him in SF.   He played 3 years in Arizona and after a better statistical rookie year than the disappointing Khalil Shakir had last season he disappeared from offensive football altogether for the next 3 years.

 

Regarding Josh Reed...........the Bills traded a 90+ catch 1200+ yard receiver in Peerless Price and the prevailing opinion was that they would be fine because Reed was going to be a better all around receiver.    He was seen as a steal of a draft pick at the top of round 2 and that his Biletnikoff award was no fluke.   I disagreed and felt it was a dumb decision to trade Price........but in fairness Reed was great and didn't drop a catchable ball as a rookie.   And he was still tremendous at getting open after that..........but he got the yips in year two and his promising career went to sh!t.

 

So don't tell me about knowing NFL players.........you don't even know or remember players from the Bills.    That's clear from your takes in this thread.

 

Bahaha, come on man, your Josh Reed stuff makes it impossible to take anything else seriously.  No amount of nonsense spinning can be done to paint some ridiculous picture that people thought Josh Reed was gonna be a pro bowler after his rookie year.  His 37 catch rookie year LMAO.  

 

And if anyone did, they need to stop drinking when evaluating players.  There wasn't a single moment of Josh Reeds career where anyone looked and said that dudes a future pro-bowler.  And I actually liked Reed...but I liked him for what he was, an ok possession guy, nothing more, nothing less.  

[transplantbillsfan]

I still think there's a decent chance we get Hopkins, but once Training Camp starts I think that chance drops off a cliff. Just based on how McBeane seems to be, my guess is they would want to make sure he's there for all of Camp to best foster chemistry with Josh and the team... namely Diggs.

 

So... watching this with baited breath for another week or so

[Starr Almighty]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again.......Kumerow was the top WR for the Bills in camp in 2021.    It just doesn't mean anything that Sherfield played well in the summer of 2021 when you first noticed him.   He's averaged 190 yards per game in his 5 year career.    Yes, you read that right.   He wasn't a newbie when you saw him in SF.   He played 3 years in Arizona and after a better statistical rookie year than the disappointing Khalil Shakir had last season he disappeared from offensive football altogether for the next 3 years.

 

Regarding Josh Reed...........the Bills traded a 90+ catch 1200+ yard receiver in Peerless Price and the prevailing opinion was that they would be fine because Reed was going to be a better all around receiver.    He was seen as a steal of a draft pick at the top of round 2 and that his Biletnikoff award was no fluke.   I disagreed and felt it was a dumb decision to trade Price........but in fairness Reed was great and didn't drop a catchable ball as a rookie.   And he was still tremendous at getting open after that..........but he got the yips in year two and his promising career went to sh!t.

 

So don't tell me about knowing NFL players.........you don't even know or remember players from the Bills.    That's clear from your takes in this thread.

sounds like a beast to me. If you are correct he should give us 3230 yards this season

[BADOLBILZ]

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Bahaha, come on man, your Josh Reed stuff makes it impossible to take anything else seriously.  No amount of nonsense spinning can be done to paint some ridiculous picture that people thought Josh Reed was gonna be a pro bowler after his rookie year.  His 37 catch rookie year LMAO.  

 

And if anyone did, they need to stop drinking when evaluating players.  There wasn't a single moment of Josh Reeds career where anyone looked and said that dudes a future pro-bowler.  And I actually liked Reed...but I liked him for what he was, an ok possession guy, nothing more, nothing less.  

 

 

Oh the Josh Reed love was real.   Not the initial "he outplayed Eric Moulds and Peerless Price in training camp" real like you claiming Trent f@cking Sherfield should have started over Deebo and Aiyuk. 

 

But yes, fans and the Bills themselves thought Josh Reed was going to step right in and replace a 1200 yard receiver and that the Bills had wisely re-allocated capital to the defense instead.   Bills even had him running Price's deep routes.    It was dumb and I knew it was destined to fail but there were a lot of people like you around......what can I say?

 

Your lack of knowledge on Bills related topics is impressive for someone who thinks they have some kind of perspective.

[Alphadawg7]

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh the Josh Reed love was real.   Not the initial "he outplayed Eric Moulds and Peerless Price in training camp" real like you claiming Trent f@cking Sherfield should have started over Deebo and Aiyuk. 

 

But yes, fans and the Bills themselves thought Josh Reed was going to step right in and replace a 1200 yard receiver and that the Bills had wisely re-allocated capital to the defense instead.   Bills even had him running Price's deep routes.    It was dumb and I knew it was destined to fail but there were a lot of people like you around......what can I say?

 

Your lack of knowledge on Bills related topics is impressive for someone who thinks they have some kind of perspective.

 

So let me get this straight...I am literally mocking this ridiculous notion Josh Reed was ever seen as a future pro bowler after his rookie as you claimed...while you simultaneously lump me into this make believe crowd as someone who believed he would be a pro bowler?  Bahahahahaha, wake me when you post anything that makes sense or has a rational thought for once.  

[BillsFanForever19]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He's averaged 190 yards per SEASON in his 5 year career.    Yes, you read that right.

 

You just love to play the "average" game to justify that Harty and Sherfield are "garbage". 

 

The "average" doesn't take into account that these are two players who were playing reserve roles behind stars most of their careers. When given opportunities because of injuries (in Harty's case) or earning them on a different team (in Sherfield's case), they flashed untapped potential.

 

In both cases, this was in their last outings, not years ago. And this is a "what have you done for me lately?" league. But you always seem to lump in the years where they were buried on the depth chart to skew an average to justify your belief that they are nothing and can't possibly be anything.

 

Deonte Harty's 2021 campaign (IR'ed early October 2022) - 570 yards as a 3rd Option

 

Trent Sherfield's 2022 campaign - 417 yards as a 3rd Option

 

You think Davis is a scrub? Beane brought in Harty and Sherfield as some insurance/competition behind him. You think they're scrubs and/or Harty is an injury risk? Beane traded up to Draft Kincaid and takes a chance on Shorter as further insurance. But then you say you can't rely on Rookies. 

 

I say that between Gabe Davis, Dalton Kincaid, Deonte Harty, Khalil Shakir, and Trent Sherfield that the odds that two of the five will step up and be solid 2nd and 3rd options behind Stefon Diggs (not to mention Dawson Knox) is way more likely than all 5 being unreliable or "garbage" and that we're in trouble and Beane hasn't done enough.

 

Given where we were on Cap space, the amount of holes we had to fill, and where we were picking in the Draft - he's done more than I thought he'd be able to do.

Edited July 16, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Alphadawg7]

56 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

You just love to play the "average" game to justify that Harty and Sherfield are "garbage". 

 

The "average" doesn't take into account that these are two players who were playing reserve roles behind stars most of their careers. When given opportunities because of injuries (in Harty's case) or earning them on a different team (in Sheffield's case), they flashed untapped potential.

 

In both cases, this was in their last outings, not years ago. And this is a "what have you done for me lately?" league. But you always seem to lump in the years where they were buried on the depth chart to skew an average to justify your belief that they are nothing and can't possibly be anything.

 

Deonte Harty's 2021 campaign (IR'ed early October 2022) - 570 yards as a 3rd Option

 

Trent Sherfield's 2022 campaign - 417 yards as a 3rd Option

 

You think Davis is a scrub? Beane brings in Harty and Sherfield as some insurance/competition behind him. You think they're scrubs or Harty is an injury risk?. He trades up to Draft Kincaid and takes a chance on Shorter. You say you can't rely on Rookies. 

 

I say that between Gabe Davis, Dalton Kincaid, Deonte Harty, Khalil Shakir, and Trent Sherfield that the odds that absolutely nobody will step up and be solid 2nd and 3rd options behind Stefon Diggs (not to mention Dawson Knox) is less likely than they're all garbage and we're in trouble.

 

Hahaha yup.  He honestly doesn't know these players at all outside googling stats after which he runs to the board and boasts he knows everything about them.  He also LOVVVVVVESSSS to cherry pick obscure points, stats, or info to manipulate information for confirmation bias of his less informed opinion that is entirely based on googling stats.  He doesn't even seem to understand that Harty isn't a direct replacement of McKenzie either.  

 

Like I said in an earlier post to I think Happy...these guys don't need to come in and have career pro bowl years, nor was that what they were brought in to do.  Diggs, Davis, and Knox are going to be the biggest parts of the pass game, at least until Kincaid integrates into a primary weapon.  If Sherfield can exceed Kumerows whopping 4 receptions last year, its already an improvement.  Harty isn't being asked to replace McKenzie as the full time slot either, he is coming in as a deep threat who can take the top off the D when needed, something McKenzie absolutely sucked at.  

 

Kincaid and Shakir are going to take the lions share of the "slot" targets this year, both should easily be better than McKenzie was and they will almost certainly combine to exceed the production we got from the combo of McKenzie and Beasley later in the year.

 

If we get Hopkins, that would be SICK and I would be stoked.  But it doesn't seem to be too likely at this point, although I will never count Beane out.  But if we don't, this offense (which has been 2nd by only 5 total points to KC in scoring over the last 3 seasons) is poised to be better than it was last year with the upgrades across the OL and improvements to the weapons and RB's around Josh.  

 

Im much more concerned about Dorsey making the strides as an OC this year this team needs him to make than missing out on Hopkins. 

 

 

 

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I still think there's a decent chance we get Hopkins, but once Training Camp starts I think that chance drops off a cliff. Just based on how McBeane seems to be, my guess is they would want to make sure he's there for all of Camp to best foster chemistry with Josh and the team... namely Diggs.

 

So... watching this with baited breath for another week or so

The dude is lazy and I’m sure wholly uninterested in training camp.  He wants $$$$$$$$$$$ and that’s all.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

 

I say that between Gabe Davis, Dalton Kincaid, Deonte Harty, Khalil Shakir, and Trent Sherfield that the odds that two of the five will step up and be solid 2nd and 3rd options behind Stefon Diggs (not to mention Dawson Knox) is way more likely than all 5 being unreliable 

 

 

 

 

Actually the odds are that the veterans will continue to be the kind of players they've been over the course of their careers.........not that "2 of the 5" will be a lot better than their career averages.    It doesn't work that way.

 

Did you not live thru the offseason where Marv Levy and Dick Jauron signed 15 free agents who had been unable to excel anywhere in the NFL or in recent seasons and the best of the lot turned out to be the receiving inept Robert Royal?    Or Beane's 2018 class of free agents where he allocated $100M to contracts for a half dozen players who had once been solid starters but had been in steep decline or injured more recently and ALL of them turned out to be terrible signings?    There is not a law of averages associated with players who fail to excel or have injuries.    This isn't like flipping a coin.

 

But don't take my word for it..........the general consensus is that the Bills offensive weapons around Allen are mediocre.    And that's despite having Stefon Diggs and reasonable expectations for Dalton Kincaid as a rookie.   It's just not an impressive group of receivers.   I hope they play better in their continued reserve roles than their years of compiled stats indicate they are.   Maybe the Bills get lucky and defy the actual odds........but I am presuming the more likely outcome.

[BillsFanForever19]

 

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Actually the odds are that the veterans will continue to be the kind of players they've been over the course of their careers.........not that "2 of the 5" will be a lot better than their career averages.    It doesn't work that way.

 

Did you not live thru the offseason where Marv Levy and Dick Jauron signed 15 free agents who had been unable to excel anywhere in the NFL or in recent seasons and the best of the lot turned out to be the receiving inept Robert Royal?    Or Beane's 2018 class of free agents where he allocated $100M to contracts for a half dozen players who had once been solid starters but had been in steep decline or injured more recently and ALL of them turned out to be terrible signings?    There is not a law of averages associated with players who fail to excel or have injuries.    This isn't like flipping a coin.

 

But don't take my word for it..........the general consensus is that the Bills offensive weapons around Allen are mediocre.    And that's despite having Stefon Diggs and reasonable expectations for Dalton Kincaid as a rookie.   It's just not an impressive group of receivers.   I hope they play better in their continued reserve roles than their years of compiled stats indicate they are.   Maybe the Bills get lucky and defy the actual odds........but I am presuming the more likely outcome.

 

Again, you are completely dismissing each players last full seasons of football where they were given more opportunities than they ever had before and focusing on when they were Undrafted players working their way up rosters with stars in front of them.

 

And the general consensus? According to whom? You and a couple other posters on this thread? A quick Google search showed me these consensus about where the Offense ranks going into this season:

 

NFL.com - #3 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-top-10-offenses-in-2023-bills-chiefs-eagles-produce-highest-win-share-proj

 

Bleacher Report - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10075320-ranking-every-nfl-offense-after-the-2023-draft

 

Lines.com - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.lines.com/guides/nfl-offense-power-rankings/1615

 

Pro Football Network - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-offense-rankings/

Edited July 16, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Doc Brown]

22 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

 

Again, you are completely dismissing each players last full seasons of football where they were given more opportunities than they ever had before and focusing on when they were Undrafted players working their way up rosters with stars in front of them.

 

And the general consensus? According to whom? You and a couple other posters on this thread? A quick Google search showed me these consensus about where the Offense ranks going into this season:

 

NFL.com - #3 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-top-10-offenses-in-2023-bills-chiefs-eagles-produce-highest-win-share-proj

 

Bleacher Report - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10075320-ranking-every-nfl-offense-after-the-2023-draft

 

Lines.com - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.lines.com/guides/nfl-offense-power-rankings/1615

 

Pro Football Network - #2 Ranked Offense in the NFL: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-offense-rankings/

Those aren't offensive weapon rankings and rightfully weigh the QB heavily.  The Chiefs and Bills are #1 and #2 overall because that's where they finished last year and it's hard to argue either got worse in terms of overall personnel.  Any "offensive weapon" rankings I've read have both of us around 10th with one elite weapon (Kelce and Diggs) with average depth behind them.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Doc Brown

[LABILLBACKER]

53 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Those aren't offensive weapon rankings and rightfully weigh the QB heavily.  The Chiefs and Bills are #1 and #2 overall because that's where they finished last year and it's hard to argue either got worse in terms of overall personnel.  Any "offensive weapon" rankings I've read have both of us around 10th with one elite weapon (Kelce and Diggs) with average depth behind them.

I believe our offensive weapons are still dead even with KC (Diggs v Kelce). The area we should "on paper" slightly move ahead of KC would be the supplemental offensive players. Sherfield, Kincaid and Harty should more than replace the offensive production we got from Crowder, Kumerow,  McKenzie and Beasley. If we run these bigger power backs more effectively and use play action/ 12 personnel, this Allen led offense will be scary.

[BillsFanForever19]

4 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Those aren't offensive weapon rankings and rightfully weigh the QB heavily.  The Chiefs and Bills are #1 and #2 overall because that's where they finished last year and it's hard to argue either got worse in terms of overall personnel.  Any "offensive weapon" rankings I've read have both of us around 10th with one elite weapon (Kelce and Diggs) with average depth behind them.

 

The point is that the makeup of the Offense as a whole has us almost universally as the #2 Offense in the league. If the surrounding talent around Josh and Diggs were "garbage" as the guy I quoted likes to say, we wouldn't be that high. 

[eball]

Only 158 pages?  Come on, people…DHop!

 

[CSBill]

Did we sign him yet?

[Solomon Grundy]

14 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I still think there's a decent chance we get Hopkins, but once Training Camp starts I think that chance drops off a cliff. Just based on how McBeane seems to be, my guess is they would want to make sure he's there for all of Camp to best foster chemistry with Josh and the team... namely Diggs.

 

So... watching this with baited breath for another week or so

I'm thinking maybe the trail end of training camp. They're going to give the current guys on the roster the chance to prove they belong. If anyone falters then I think the Bills will swoop in. Dhop is a veteran. It wouldn't take him long at all to get acclimated with Josh

[Bill from NYC]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Did you not live thru the offseason where Marv Levy and Dick Jauron signed 15 free agents who had been unable to excel anywhere in the NFL or in recent seasons and the best of the lot turned out to be the receiving inept Robert Royal? 

 

Do you mean THE Robert Royal, the TE that other teams didn't even bother to cover when he ran patterns?  

 

Once at RWS at a tailgate I mentioned to you that Royal seemed to always be open. I thought that I was making an astute observation. You told me no, that the reason Royal was open was due to the fact that opposing teams didn't bother to cover him because his hands were just that bad. I admittedly didn't quite believe you. I had great seats at midfield in the upper deck in about the 3rd row and sure enough, there was Royal, flapping his arms all day by himself with zero coverage. When a ball was thrown his way he seemed to almost always drop it. 

 

Now, I am having a rough time believing that there were 14 free agents who were actually worse than Royal LOL! Would you happen to have a list?  

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[frostbitmic]

He won't be on the market long, we should sign him.

[muppy]

3 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

He won't be on the market long, we should sign him.

DHop eventual landing spot is both a mystery and a source of frustration for fans This waiting is as stale as the popcorn I ate waiting for this guy to make up his mind. .

 

Somebody please get it done. Brandon Beane? Meh I doubt it

 

 I Think he will sign where he will earn the largest paycheck. I will eat my crow with korean bbq sauce if I am wrong.

 

What is that old expression: D Hopkins dear *** or get off the pot POR FAVOR

 

**tapping my watch***