2023 NFL Combine Results and News

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Does feel like the track has been a bit slower this year just looking at the times... or maybe this class is as unathletic as it is uninspiring? 

 

I agree re. the eye test on Robinson. I think the thing that is missing from the "whole package" is home run hitting ability. He can block, he can catch, he has excellent vision, he can run with power, and I think he has a decent level of first step explosion (his 10 yard split was a 1.58 which is not bad) but his long speed is only average. I don't see many long breakaway touchdown runs from him in the NFL. 

I was thinking the same.  Devon Achane was the only guy that really impressed me running the 40.  I figured he’d have the fastest time at the combine, but that kid looked like a missile, albeit a very small missile.  
 

It seemed to me like there were 1/2 as many sub 4.4 40’s this year when compared to last year and definitely less than 2021.

 

Considering the lack of competitive tape and a 4.40 time I don’t see Hyatt being a 1st rd pick.  Downs has almost no chance at being a 1st rd pick.  I don’t see Tank Dell being a 2nd or maybe even a 3rd rd pick (I wouldn’t even take him in rd 4).  
 

please let Addison, JSN or Johnston fall to us. That is all

[MrEpsYtown]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Does feel like the track has been a bit slower this year just looking at the times... or maybe this class is as unathletic as it is uninspiring? 

 

I agree re. the eye test on Robinson. I think the thing that is missing from the "whole package" is home run hitting ability. He can block, he can catch, he has excellent vision, he can run with power, and I think he has a decent level of first step explosion (his 10 yard split was a 1.58 which is not bad) but his long speed is only average. I don't see many long breakaway touchdown runs from him in the NFL. 

 

I would ask this, where would these wide receivers rank in last year's draft? 

 

You've got London, Wilson, Olave, Williams, Dotson...I think all of those guys would have been drafted in the first before any of these guys. (Obviously Pickens as well but he went later than he should have). Johnston to me is interesting because of the upside. The rest I really don't think are first-round picks at all. 

 

Same with the OL. Pete Skoronski is a second-round pick if he comes out in that group. Torrence is probably a 3rd. 

 

The top five TEs are all better than McBride from last year IMO. 

 

When it comes to defensive players, they are right up there with those top guys from last year IMO. This year, more than most, I think the Bills really need to stay true to their board, and I know people get upset, the BPA with the highest upside and true first-round grade at 27 is probably a defensive player or a TE. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I would ask this, where would these wide receivers rank in last year's draft? 

 

You've got London, Wilson, Olave, Williams, Dotson...I think all of those guys would have been drafted in the first before any of these guys. (Obviously Pickens as well but he went later than he should have). Johnston to me is interesting because of the upside. The rest I really don't think are first-round picks at all. 

 

Same with the OL. Pete Skoronski is a second-round pick if he comes out in that group. Torrence is probably a 3rd. 

 

The top five TEs are all better than McBride from last year IMO. 

 

When it comes to defensive players, they are right up there with those top guys from last year IMO. This year, more than most, I think the Bills really need to stay true to their board, and I know people get upset, the BPA with the highest upside and true first-round grade at 27 is probably a defensive player or a TE. 

 

I have done the receiver thing before... 

 

Skoronski I have a late 1st on. He certainly comes after the top 4 OL last year on my board, in order - 1 Cross, 2 Ekwonu, 3 Penning, 4 Neal. But he'd have been my 5th guy. I actually have Paris Johnson as my #1 OL this year and his grade would have had him just a squeak ahead of Neal last year. 

 

As for Tight Ends.... I think definitely the top 3 guys on my board will be ahead of McBride. But even more so the depth. McBride is the only one from last year's class I'd have in a top 7 or 8 of a combined class. 

 

 

[HappyDays]

14 hours ago, HappyDays said:

This is a bummer:

 

I saw him mocked to the Bills a few times on day two. Now he's probably a mid day three prospect.

 

 

[cle23]

12 hours ago, LEBills said:

You don’t draft a blocking TE at 27. Or even day 2. In fact stay away from TE in round 1 all together. When was the last first round TE that was really good for the team that drafted him?….Heath Miller?

 

Kyle Pitts.

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

Ugh. Sucks. I really like him. If he is still there round 4 I might think about it given there are not many players in this class I like. 

[Gugny]

47 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

This is why the combine sucks.  All of the physical stuff is totally unnecessary.  The only real benefit is the interviews.  You can't wreck your knee in an interview.

 

Very sad.  Very avoidable.

[OldTimer1960]

12 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

I agree that blocking TEs are a no. To be fair there haven’t been many TEs to go in round 1. The ones who have haven’t been good you probably have to go back to Greg Olsen, Vernon Davis and Heath Miller as guys who fit your criteria and that’s 15 years ago. 
 

I think after testing the only guy who should be a first rounder is Dalton Kincaid and he didn’t work out at the combine. 
 

Luke Musgrave had a nice combine combine with production and pedigree could vault him up to the end of round 1. 
 

Mayer will be interesting now. His testing numbers were not great but his college production is obviously great. I think he slipped down the board some. 
 

 

TE Rankings for me: 

 

Kincaid

Musgrave

Laporta 

Kraft

Mayer

Washington

You had me on Musgrave until you got to production.  In his best season 2021 he caught 22 passes.  Now, that doesn’t mean he can’t be a good receiving TE, but I would not say he has proven that he already is one.

[gonzo1105]

6 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

You had me on Musgrave until you got to production.  In his best season 2021 he caught 22 passes.  Now, that doesn’t mean he can’t be a good receiving TE, but I would not say he has proven that he already is one.

 

I think you have to look at his circumstances. He had Covid year in 2020. He was off to an awesome start in 2021 before tearing his ACL and then this year is a recovery year as we know that you can get back on the field from an ACL tear but your really not back to normal normal until another year. 

 

I don't think he's Buffalo's type of Tight End. The Bills want an inline guy who can do both at an above average clip. I still think looking at all of the Tight Ends that Tucker Kraft is the best pure fit for the Bills. He can block and catch passes. He has a really good build and had good testing numbers. He has some explosiveness in the passing game. His knock is he played at the FCS level but being from the midwest at a small middle of nowhere school he also kind of fits the McDermott/Buffalo blue collar type player that the Bills covet. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

I think you can still draft him late and rehab him this year. Could really pay off later imo. Do we have a 6th round pick? I would probably do a 6th if we have one.

Edited March 6, 2023 by TheBeaneBandit

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

I think you can still draft him late and rehab him this year. Could really pay off later imo. Do we have a 6th round pick? I would probably do a 6th if we have one.

 

It's a gamble that a number of teams will be looking at.  Bills have a late 6th (#203).  If he was still there (I doubt it) I would do it.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

That sucks and is impressive at the same time.

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Ugh. Sucks. I really like him. If he is still there round 4 I might think about it given there are not many players in this class I like. 

 

No way in the 4th.  The 7th maybe.

[OldTimer1960]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

I think you have to look at his circumstances. He had Covid year in 2020. He was off to an awesome start in 2021 before tearing his ACL and then this year is a recovery year as we know that you can get back on the field from an ACL tear but your really not back to normal normal until another year. 

 

I don't think he's Buffalo's type of Tight End. The Bills want an inline guy who can do both at an above average clip. I still think looking at all of the Tight Ends that Tucker Kraft is the best pure fit for the Bills. He can block and catch passes. He has a really good build and had good testing numbers. He has some explosiveness in the passing game. His knock is he played at the FCS level but being from the midwest at a small middle of nowhere school he also kind of fits the McDermott/Buffalo blue collar type player that the Bills covet. 

Understand your point.  Good discussion!

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That sucks and is impressive at the same time.

 

No way in the 4th.  The 7th maybe.

 

There will be a whole lot of teams with multiple late round pick and comp picks who will swing the bat on him before the 7th.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No way in the 4th.  The 7th maybe.

 

I get it he won't play for a year but in a bad class I'll take a guy who won't play for a year but is otherwise a pretty sure bet over a day 3 lottery ticket. In a deeper draft, maybe less so.

[MrEpsYtown]

11 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

It's a gamble that a number of teams will be looking at.  Bills have a late 6th (#203).  If he was still there (I doubt it) I would do it.

 

I just think the Bills don't have the draft capital to do it. Whereas a team like the Texans have 12 picks and could easily add a guy like this. Or the Falcons, Seahawks, Raiders or Chiefs who have 9 picks. 

[ColoradoBills]

22 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I just think the Bills don't have the draft capital to do it. Whereas a team like the Texans have 12 picks and could easily add a guy like this. Or the Falcons, Seahawks, Raiders or Chiefs who have 9 picks. 

 

I agree for the reasons most of us are saying.  The sad part of this it takes a good G off the boards for this year just when Beane could use one.

I wanted Beane to draft a pure experienced RG, now maybe it has to bring in some college RTs who can play both spots.

 

Not sure if that's going to be an option.  For sure the team can't afford another Cody Ford.

[NewEra]

54 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That sucks and is impressive at the same time.

 

 

No way in the 4th.  The 7th maybe.

I promise he’s taken before the 7th.  I’d take him in rd 5 and laugh at the rest of the league for passing on him for so long.  He was a likely 2nd rd pick and top 5 OG.  You wouldn’t even take him in round 6?

[Doc]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

I promise he’s taken before the 7th.  I’d take him in rd 5 and laugh at the rest of the league for passing on him for so long.  He was a likely 2nd rd pick and top 5 OG.  You wouldn’t even take him in round 6?

 

OK maybe the 6th.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Mike Schopp and Sal Capaccio are now pushing for a Tight End after Darnell Washington's combine performance. 

 

But I'm not sure how that would work. 

 

This offense has not historically revolved around Tight End usage, Allen has not thrown to the Tight End often. 

 

So now we take a Tight End at 27 over a slot WR, over an Offensive Lineman, he has to be on the field. 

 

With an investment already paid to Dawson Knox, now we'd have two large investments into Tight End, similar to running back, a position that the Bills have not used offensively in the Daboll/Dorsey offense. 

 

It's just not as clean of a fit. 

 

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Mike Schopp and Sal Capaccio are now pushing for a Tight End after Darnell Washington's combine performance. 

 

But I'm not sure how that would work. 

 

This offense has not historically revolved around Tight End usage, Allen has not thrown to the Tight End often. 

 

So now we take a Tight End at 27 over a slot WR, over an Offensive Lineman, he has to be on the field. 

 

With an investment already paid to Dawson Knox, now we'd have two large investments into Tight End, similar to running back, a position that the Bills have not used offensively in the Daboll/Dorsey offense. 

 

It's just not as clean of a fit. 

 

Awhile back I was pushing for Darnell Washington, though I was hoping to grab him in the second round. I think he will be an exceptional blocker and help solidify the oline. He would fill the role of TE#2. At 27, that is a pretty rich price. Kincaid and Mayer are more dangerous offensive weapons at the position who are plausibly available there as well. The problem is the value of the olinemen and wr might not be there at 27. This is probably a year to trade down and pick up another day two pick, but you can't count on a reasonable deal, so you better have a plan to make the pick. I personally hope it doesn't default to defense, though there's a decent chance that's where the value is. I can't afford to throw a brick at the telly, so I will probably go outside and yell at the clouds.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Awhile back I was pushing for Darnell Washington, though I was hoping to grab him in the second round. I think he will be an exceptional blocker and help solidify the oline. He would fill the role of TE#2. At 27, that is a pretty rich price. Kincaid and Mayer are more dangerous offensive weapons at the position who are plausibly available there as well. The problem is the value of the olinemen and wr might not be there at 27. This is probably a year to trade down and pick up another day two pick, but you can't count on a reasonable deal, so you better have a plan to make the pick. I personally hope it doesn't default to defense, though there's a decent chance that's where the value is. I can't afford to throw a brick at the telly, so I will probably go outside and yell at the clouds.

I don't see how Darnell Washington helps the Bills more than Zay Flowers if he is there. 

 

The Bills need someone to take hold of the slot position. 

 

A backup TE that is on the field 30% - 40% of snaps and requires an offensive philosophy change is not a great value. 

 

We all saw the sled drill where Washington picked that up like a folding chair, and Mayer struggled to move it like a couch in the living room. 

[gonzo1105]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't see how Darnell Washington helps the Bills more than Zay Flowers if he is there. 

 

The Bills need someone to take hold of the slot position. 

 

A backup TE that is on the field 30% - 40% of snaps and requires an offensive philosophy change is not a great value. 

 

We all saw the sled drill where Washington picked that up like a folding chair, and Mayer struggled to move it like a couch in the living room. 

 

The Bills wanted to change their philosophy last year which is why they signed OJ Howard then realized he was awful and went away from that. Howard was known as a good blocker and they were trying to unlock him in the passing game. I think they realized he didn't have the juice to be that guy. They want to be a 12 personnel team. Its in Dorseys past DNA, it fits the system Dorsey has run, that Daboll has run in the past with the Patriots, and the University of Miami had stud TE's. 

 

The problem with needing two TE's is you need both who can block and be able to stretch the seams. Most of the TE's in this class either fit one or the other. Kincaid and Musgrave are pure pass catchers, Washington is a great blocker but he is not a dynamic pass catcher despite his athletic numbers, Mayer, after his testing might not be either. I keep coming back to Tucker Kraft as that guy. Probably have to take him in round 2. He can block, he can stretch the field, he can work underneath, had really solid combine numbers. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

The Bills wanted to change their philosophy last year which is why they signed OJ Howard then realized he was awful and went away from that. Howard was known as a good blocker and they were trying to unlock him in the passing game. I think they realized he didn't have the juice to be that guy. They want to be a 12 personnel team. Its in Dorseys past DNA, it fits the system Dorsey has run, that Daboll has run in the past with the Patriots, and the University of Miami had stud TE's. 

 

The problem with needing two TE's is you need both who can block and be able to stretch the seams. Most of the TE's in this class either fit one or the other. Kincaid and Musgrave are pure pass catchers, Washington is a great blocker but he is not a dynamic pass catcher despite his athletic numbers, Mayer, after his testing might not be either. I keep coming back to Tucker Kraft as that guy. Probably have to take him in round 2. He can block, he can stretch the field, he can work underneath, had really solid combine numbers. 

I'll believe that when I see it. 

 

I've heard Capaccio make that argument too that the Bills really tried to bring in other Tight Ends with Kroft and Howard. 

 

Both of those guys were long-shot veterans. 

 

Howard was a bust, and had a major mid-career injury. 

 

Kroft is a JAG.

 

Those aren't serious attempts to get better, and Kroft they miscalculated value on. 

[gonzo1105]

9 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'll believe that when I see it. 

 

I've heard Capaccio make that argument too that the Bills really tried to bring in other Tight Ends with Kroft and Howard. 

 

Both of those guys were long-shot veterans. 

 

Howard was a bust, and had a major mid-career injury. 

 

Kroft is a JAG.

 

Those aren't serious attempts to get better, and Kroft they miscalculated value on. 

 

Tucker Kraft, not Tyler Kroft, he's a TE from South Dakota State. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

Tucker Kraft, not Tyler Kroft, he's a TE from South Dakota State. 

No I understand. 

 

I'm saying when people say the Bills have shown you they want a better Tight End #2 because they signed OJ Howard and Tyler Kroft, I don't see that as a honest attempt to do anything. 

 

That's garbage bin shopping. 

 

You want Kraft, that's fine, provided a WR comes first. 

 

I just don't see how a #2 TE gets on the field that much on this team, let alone gets enough passes to warrant high selection. 

 

Why did we pay Knox? 

 

Find another Lee Smith if the #2 just has to block well. 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

Washington and that kid from Princeton at WR.  He could push for time outside with Davis, back up Diggs, and let Shakir run inside. 

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

No I understand. 

 

I'm saying when people say the Bills have shown you they want a better Tight End #2 because they signed OJ Howard and Tyler Kroft, I don't see that as a honest attempt to do anything. 

 

That's garbage bin shopping. 

 

You want Kraft, that's fine, provided a WR comes first. 

 

I just don't see how a #2 TE gets on the field that much on this team, let alone gets enough passes to warrant high selection. 

 

Why did we pay Knox? 

 

Find another Lee Smith if the #2 just has to block well. 

 

 

Maybe they play more 12 with a 2nd TE they want on the field and let Knox actually play pass catcher?  I wouldn't bet on it but just throwing it out there.

[Motorin']

A few guys popped up on the radar for me:

 

Fastest wr was Trey Palmer at 6' 192lbs running 4.33, he has better size than and speed than Flowers, Hyatt, Downs ect. 

 

That's Jon Brown speed in Stefon Diggs frame... watching his highlights he's a big time vertical threat... 

 

And could Deneric Prince be this year's Isaiah Pacheco? 

 

6' 216lbs running 4.4 is a load to try to take down.

 

I'm all for picking up and extra pick or two, and spending our very last one on a RB. 

 

 

[CapeBreton]

I'm pretty intrigued by Jonathan Mingo, amazing combine and the tape looks very good. No idea where he's projected right now though. 

 

 

[section122]

4 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Mike Schopp and Sal Capaccio are now pushing for a Tight End after Darnell Washington's combine performance. 

 

But I'm not sure how that would work. 

 

This offense has not historically revolved around Tight End usage, Allen has not thrown to the Tight End often. 

 

So now we take a Tight End at 27 over a slot WR, over an Offensive Lineman, he has to be on the field. 

 

With an investment already paid to Dawson Knox, now we'd have two large investments into Tight End, similar to running back, a position that the Bills have not used offensively in the Daboll/Dorsey offense. 

 

It's just not as clean of a fit. 

 

 

The argument for Washington is that he helps the run game and can also help the pass game by freeing up Knox to run routes.  He then is also a tremendous red zone threat.  It makes the offense less predictable while offering protection for Josh and opening running lanes.  The Bills (I think) ran a lot of tackle eligible plays.  Washington removes the need to do so.  

 

I won't disagree that 27 is likely too rich for a blocking te.  Looking at the trade chart, Seattle would be a great team to trade down with.  They could give 37 and 83 for 27.  Then the Bills would have 2 2nds and 2 3rds.  Washington is a lot more palatable at 37 and the Bills would have an extra top 100 pick to bolster the team.

 

Best case scenario is somehow one of the top 4 qbs (would have to be Levis) is still sitting there and someone wants that 5th year option.  Unfortunately I think the floor for the top 4 qbs is Tampa Bay at 19.

[Fleezoid]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:14 PM, ColoradoBills said:

 

There will be a whole lot of teams with multiple late round pick and comp picks who will swing the bat on him before the 7th.

 

What's with the bat? He's already got an injured knee. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

52 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

The argument for Washington is that he helps the run game and can also help the pass game by freeing up Knox to run routes.  He then is also a tremendous red zone threat.  It makes the offense less predictable while offering protection for Josh and opening running lanes.  The Bills (I think) ran a lot of tackle eligible plays.  Washington removes the need to do so.  

 

I won't disagree that 27 is likely too rich for a blocking te.  Looking at the trade chart, Seattle would be a great team to trade down with.  They could give 37 and 83 for 27.  Then the Bills would have 2 2nds and 2 3rds.  Washington is a lot more palatable at 37 and the Bills would have an extra top 100 pick to bolster the team.

 

Best case scenario is somehow one of the top 4 qbs (would have to be Levis) is still sitting there and someone wants that 5th year option.  Unfortunately I think the floor for the top 4 qbs is Tampa Bay at 19.

Absolutely that trade would have to be considered, taking into account what WRs are left at #27. 

 

If Hyatt or Flowers are still on the board, I'd be interested in selecting either because I still view WR as the easiest plug into our offense over a TE or RB. 

 

In the same vein, what offensive lineman are still left on the board there. 

1 hour ago, CapeBreton said:

I'm pretty intrigued by Jonathan Mingo, amazing combine and the tape looks very good. No idea where he's projected right now though. 

 

 

I know Greg Cosell likes him. 

[KingBoots8]

1 hour ago, CapeBreton said:

I'm pretty intrigued by Jonathan Mingo, amazing combine and the tape looks very good. No idea where he's projected right now though. 

 

 

“Why, Johnny Mingo… you look like someone just walked over your grave.”

 

I’m sorry, I’m dumb. I like Mingo too - I had him as a mid-3rd rounder - early 4th but I think he’s going late 2nd - early 3rd after the combine.

[Magox]

This guy could be available in the 4th or 5th round and looks like a potential TE sleeper.  Off-the-charts athleticism and size and had a really productive junior year.

 

Looks like he could turn out to be a good blocker and has some wiggle to his route running.

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

7 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

No I understand. 

 

I'm saying when people say the Bills have shown you they want a better Tight End #2 because they signed OJ Howard and Tyler Kroft, I don't see that as a honest attempt to do anything. 

 

That's garbage bin shopping. 

 

You want Kraft, that's fine, provided a WR comes first. 

 

I just don't see how a #2 TE gets on the field that much on this team, let alone gets enough passes to warrant high selection. 

 

Why did we pay Knox? 

 

Find another Lee Smith if the #2 just has to block well. 

 

 

The way a #2 TE gets on the field is to move away from a 3WR set because they don’t have 3 good WRs.

[gonzo1105]

54 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

The way a #2 TE gets on the field is to move away from a 3WR set because they don’t have 3 good WRs.

Bingo. The Bills will be using Knox and a high pick more than 30% of the time if they go that route. Davis is also a good blocking WR and is excellent on play action passes(when he catches the ball) 

Edited March 8, 2023 by gonzo1105

[OldTimer1960]

6 hours ago, Motorin' said:

A few guys popped up on the radar for me:

 

Fastest wr was Trey Palmer at 6' 192lbs running 4.33, he has better size than and speed than Flowers, Hyatt, Downs ect. 

 

That's Jon Brown speed in Stefon Diggs frame... watching his highlights he's a big time vertical threat... 

 

And could Deneric Prince be this year's Isaiah Pacheco? 

 

6' 216lbs running 4.4 is a load to try to take down.

 

I'm all for picking up and extra pick or two, and spending our very last one on a RB. 

 

 

Shopping just for fast 40 times is not the best way to scout (imho).  Palmer has some good traits, but I don’t think he is coming into the league and playing a lot on offense this season.

 

The RB. might have a chance to play some in the league as it is an easier position to make an impact.

[Motorin']

29 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Shopping just for fast 40 times is not the best way to scout (imho).  Palmer has some good traits, but I don’t think he is coming into the league and playing a lot on offense this season.

 

The RB. might have a chance to play some in the league as it is an easier position to make an impact.

 

It's always a crap shoot. But he's faster and has 20 pounds on late 1st/ 2nd round guys like Flowers and Hyatt. 

 

He also had better college production than Diggs had. 

[OldTimer1960]

27 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's always a crap shoot. But he's faster and has 20 pounds on late 1st/ 2nd round guys like Flowers and Hyatt. 

 

He also had better college production than Diggs had. 

I’m not saying that Tre Palmer might not be pretty good, but Flowers has much more proven ability to shake defenders with route running.  Hyatt has shown good hands on the few routes he was asked to run. 
 

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I’m not saying that Tre Palmer might not be pretty good, but Flowers has much more proven ability to shake defenders with route running.  Hyatt has shown good hands on the few routes he was asked to run. 
 

 

Well we run four verts on nearly every play, and that seems to be Palmer's strength