Should the Bills switch to a 3-4 defense?

[machine gun kelly]

This is not the brightest of ideas.  We’ve just never got the most out of Basham and AJE.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, the only problem with that line of reasoning is that they did play a base 4-3 a couple of years ago, but were forced to abandon it because we had no capable LBs to fill those roles, particularly with Edmunds OJT-ing it and Milano primarily a pass-defending LB until late last and this seasons.  

 

Beane's drafting has led to poor day 1 and day 2 results.  When you constantly have overlay your prior draft picks with picks at the same positions, you have no choice but to neglect other unit needs.  

Forced to abandon it or choose to play a with what they still had left on the roster from Rex and build towards the nickel defense they have been using for the last 4 years?

 

2018 had lorax, Edmunds and Milano and lorax started 8 games that year.

 

So if you're referring to 2017 when McD took over as HC then yes, he did play a 4-3 because they didn't have the players they have now to run nickel all the time.

 

Basically they built the team the way that McD and Frazier wanted it and all I see you doing is blaming beane at the end of every reply so if that's where you want to put the blame, so be it, but he's doing what the coaching staff is asking for.

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

What players do you think would fit better in a 3-4? I’ve got two maybes in Oliver and Edmunds. Oliver is on his 5th year option and Edmunds is an FA. So right now we have 1 excellent LB under contract in Milano. But we don’t have another one that’s even starting level. 

 

Since we do not actually play a 4-3 - we play almost exclusively Nickel - why incorporate a 3-4 at all? when would we even want to put that on the field?

Technically we play a 4-2-5. There's never a 3rd linebacker on the field.  And realistically Edmunds is a strong safety backpedaling into coverage. So we run a 4-1-6 Tampa2 zone. It only works if you get immediate pressure on the qb.  It would take 2-3 years to switch. We need more front 4 pressure.  We need less zone and more man press (30%).

[LABILLBACKER]

8 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Forced to abandon it or choose to play a with what they still had left on the roster from Rex and build towards the nickel defense they have been using for the last 4 years?

 

2018 had lorax, Edmunds and Milano and lorax started 8 games that year.

 

So if you're referring to 2017 when McD took over as HC then yes, he did play a 4-3 because they didn't have the players they have now to run nickel all the time.

 

Basically they built the team the way that McD and Frazier wanted it and all I see you doing is blaming beane at the end of every reply so if that's where you want to put the blame, so be it, but he's doing what the coaching staff is asking for.

Beane is not the glaring problem for this organization.  It's McDermott's incessant need for defensive players over using common sense and building around Josh. Look at all the draft capital and cap$ we've used on defense. I highly doubt Beane just did that on his own. 

[The Wiz]

29 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Beane is not the glaring problem for this organization.  It's McDermott's incessant need for defensive players over using common sense and building around Josh. Look at all the draft capital and cap$ we've used on defense. I highly doubt Beane just did that on his own. 

The other problem is McD's "you have to earn it" mentality to playing players.

 

James Cook - 25% of offensive snap counts

Kalil Shakir - 29% of offensive snap counts

Taiwan Jones - 0% of offensive snap counts

 

But Taiwan gets the spot because why?  He's earned it (not saying he took a roster spot from either of them on game day but just the way he uses players seems to be based on his philosophy).

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Wiz

[Coldfronts]

No, I think they need to play a 5 -2 D

[PrimeTime101]

5 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Between the players we have and the players that we’ll have coming up for new contracts it may be time to change the defensive philosophy. I also think that replacing and/or adding new players will be easier and cheaper to do. Looking at the current roster we already have plenty of the pieces in house. Adding more LBers will be needed but once again they should be pretty easy to find, especially in the draft where 4th and 5th rders can provide great replacements.

you have to either have 0 knowledge of what the 3-4 is, 0 knowledge of what we have, little knowledge of what we are set up for right now, Football itself, or a troll..

I will add a mixture of a few things.

 

but.. Ill Bite for the sake of being kind...

 

3-4 is 3 down lineman with 4 LBS. Now. there are a couple teams that run a variant of this by adding an extra DB instead of a LB but thats just a 3-3-5 no matter what they call it. 

 

to run a good 3-4(keeping in mind this is a base defense that is mostly run on short downs and sometimes base on first down) you need a NT that will rock their world.

We do not really have that.

 

THEN you need 4 really good LBS with one of those LBS rotating with a DB and another rotating with Blitz/Cover LB.

 

Now ask yourself (while I still consider the first bolded statement and what fits you best). Do we have the funds do make such a flip on defense knowing all we need on offense and do we have the DC in sight to make such changes happen?

 

NVM, I have thought it through... its a mix bag of "WOW"

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

No. Just no. Maybe if you fired the DC and hired a 3-4 guy and he gave assurances that he can make this roster work. Even then he's going to want a few pieces, which in turn takes away from the offense.

 

I really wish we could just hire Jim Schwartz back in all honesty.

I loved Jim. Wish we could have made that work.

 He and Kromer are both bad asses

[Tipster19]

16 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you have to either have 0 knowledge of what the 3-4 is, 0 knowledge of what we have, little knowledge of what we are set up for right now, Football itself, or a troll..

I will add a mixture of a few things.

 

but.. Ill Bite for the sake of being kind...

 

3-4 is 3 down lineman with 4 LBS. Now. there are a couple teams that run a variant of this by adding an extra DB instead of a LB but thats just a 3-3-5 no matter what they call it. 

 

to run a good 3-4(keeping in mind this is a base defense that is mostly run on short downs and sometimes base on first down) you need a NT that will rock their world.

We do not really have that.

 

THEN you need 4 really good LBS with one of those LBS rotating with a DB and another rotating with Blitz/Cover LB.

 

Now ask yourself (while I still consider the first bolded statement and what fits you best). Do we have the funds do make such a flip on defense knowing all we need on offense and do we have the DC in sight to make such changes happen?

 

NVM, I have thought it through... its a mix bag of "WOW"

It’s your reading comprehension that impresses me the most…

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, Tipster19 said:

It’s your reading comprehension that impresses me the most…

thanks for making my mind up as to what categories you fall into. You act like this is an easy change. its not.

[Tenhigh]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

What players do you think would fit better in a 3-4? I’ve got two maybes in Oliver and Edmunds. Oliver is on his 5th year option and Edmunds is an FA. So right now we have 1 excellent LB under contract in Milano. But we don’t have another one that’s even starting level. 

 

Since we do not actually play a 4-3 - we play almost exclusively Nickel - why incorporate a 3-4 at all? when would we even want to put that on the field?

 Kind of kidding, but since we have no pressure in a 4-3 anyway, maybe a 3-4 would help vs the pass?

[nucci]

we barely have 2 good LBs. How will we find 4?

[Johnnyp566]

It feels like 2009 again. 

[Billz4ever]

How about we just hire the ghost of Buddy Ryan as our DC and bring back the 46? 😂

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

How about we just hire the ghost of Buddy Ryan as our DC and bring back the 46? 😂

 They do need someone to kick their asses & play with fire, been saying that since the AFCCG Chiefs debacle.

[JaCrispy]

I prefer 4-3 under we ran under Pettine 👍

[nedboy7]

I think we should run the triangle.  Get Phil to come out of retirement. 

[LABILLBACKER]

46 minutes ago, nucci said:

we barely have 2 good LBs. How will we find 4?

Exactly...Spector and Bernard are terrible...we're about to lose Edmunds...that leaves Milano....it's not happening,  would take way to long to flip back. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Forced to abandon it or choose to play a with what they still had left on the roster from Rex and build towards the nickel defense they have been using for the last 4 years?

 

2018 had lorax, Edmunds and Milano and lorax started 8 games that year.

 

So if you're referring to 2017 when McD took over as HC then yes, he did play a 4-3 because they didn't have the players they have now to run nickel all the time.

 

Basically they built the team the way that McD and Frazier wanted it and all I see you doing is blaming beane at the end of every reply so if that's where you want to put the blame, so be it, but he's doing what the coaching staff is asking for.

 

As I said, Milano wasn't very good back then, in fact, his value was purely as a pass-D LB, his run-D skills were among the worst in the league.  

 

As to Lorax, yes, but he was on the downside as well.  

 

I guess it's possible that they built the roster to only have two competent LBs, although under any circumstances that would seem to be incredibly foolish.  It also feeds into why the D is so bad.  

 

I'll throw another wrench at you, perhaps it's that way because McD isn't in fact a good coach.  He's a former DB, and in coaching a former DB Coach turned average-at-best DC.  So it's quite possible we have a Peter Principle in action here.  

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

This is not the brightest of ideas.  We’ve just never got the most out of Basham and AJE.

Multiples is what was preached from McD

 Week to week matchups.
surely more flexibility can be  derived from this defense.
and why not put Basham and AJE or even Groot as LB once and agin ?

34 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

How about we just hire the ghost of Buddy Ryan as our DC and bring back the 46? 😂

Hoped for Fangio actually  lol

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

What players do you think would fit better in a 3-4? I’ve got two maybes in Oliver and Edmunds. Oliver is on his 5th year option and Edmunds is an FA. So right now we have 1 excellent LB under contract in Milano. But we don’t have another one that’s even starting level. 

 

Since we do not actually play a 4-3 - we play almost exclusively Nickel - why incorporate a 3-4 at all? when would we even want to put that on the field?

Ed Oliver is not long enough to be a super productive 5 tech

 

Those guys are 6’5 300 pounds

 

 Oliver Has to be a three tech

[McBean]

7 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Between the players we have and the players that we’ll have coming up for new contracts it may be time to change the defensive philosophy. I also think that replacing and/or adding new players will be easier and cheaper to do. Looking at the current roster we already have plenty of the pieces in house. Adding more LBers will be needed but once again they should be pretty easy to find, especially in the draft where 4th and 5th rders can provide great replacements.

yeah, let’s just do everything possible instead of fire our clown HC

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, McBean said:

yeah, let’s just do everything possible instead of fire our clown HC

Beane has 1 success … josh Allen 

 

McDermott drafted Tre White and Matt Milano and Dion Dawkins… And brought us to the playoffs after 17 years of obscurity

Edited February 4, 2023 by Buffalo716

[nedboy7]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Beane has 1 success … josh Allen 

 

McDermott drafted Tre White and Matt Milano and Dion Dawkins

 

How many years did Bean's team make the playoffs? 

[machine gun kelly]

14 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Multiples is what was preached from McD

 Week to week matchups.
surely more flexibility can be  derived from this defense.
and why not put Basham and AJE or even Groot as LB once and agin ?

Hoped for Fangio actually  lol

3/12 although I always value you’re opinion, it’s highly unlikely McD is going

to completely change his staff, personnel and change what has worked for him for the last 20 years.  He may be a disciple of the great Kimmy Johnson, the 3-4 defensive guru, he has chosen to move to a 4-3 under Ron Rivera.

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Not saying that we should switch, but Baltimore played a 3-4 vs Cinci in the playoffs for the entire game.
 

Any scheme will work with the proper game plan, coaching and execution.  Our problem in season ending games has been a combination of all 3.  
 

I would’ve liked to make the switch IF we could’ve brought in Fangio.  He’s the best defensive mind in the league imo.  Now he’s the enemy.  Good chance he’s going to take Dorsey to school next season. 

And the offense?

I definitely think the Bills should incorporate a 3 man front, but not in a traditional 3-4. There is no reason to go with 4 DBs against the offensive personnel KC and virtually every other NFL team trots out.

 

I have not watched the All 22 yet, but I suspect Cincy was using a 3 man DL in a 3-2-6 Dime or 3-3-5 Nickel against KC. Those formations - and others - should be on the table. No argument here. 

[nosejob]

If I wasn't so bored...and cold, I wouldn't be typing this. That being said, how could anyone suggest a 3-4? This staff refuses to play 3 LBs as it is? A 3-4 alignment would mean having elite LB talent and playing 4 would just go against everything the vaunted soft zone nickel is known for.

 

BTW, a 3-4 has been a bad idea since the Cowboys killed us with 4 sets of fresh legs in the SBs.

[Buffalo716]

21 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

How many years did Bean's team make the playoffs? 

Don’t get it twisted… McDermott runs the team with beane under him

 

McDermott ran the first draft… Which gave us cornerstone pieces in Tre , Dawkins , Milano … Plus ammunition to move up to get Josh

 

McDermitt also Had his blue prints all over beane being hired

 

Beane has been really good with the cap and bringing in some guys … but his drafting record , especially in the meat rounds (2-3) is lacking 

 

his drafting hasn’t been top of the league 

 

McDermott Brought us out of 17 years of futility

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Buffalo716

[nosejob]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don’t get it twisted… McDermott runs the team with beane under him

 

McDermott ran the first draft… Which gave us cornerstone pieces in Tre , Dawkins , Milano … Plus ammunition to move up to get Josh

 

McDermitt also Had his blue prints all over beane being hired

 

Beane has been really good with the cap and bringing in some guys … but his drafting record , especially in the meat rounds (2-3) is lacking 

 

his drafting hasn’t been top of the league 

 

McDermott Brought us out of 17 years of futility

 

 

Let's not forget our management getting poached constantly....ie. Joe Shein etc.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

8 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

Between the players we have and the players that we’ll have coming up for new contracts it may be time to change the defensive philosophy. I also think that replacing and/or adding new players will be easier and cheaper to do. Looking at the current roster we already have plenty of the pieces in house. Adding more LBers will be needed but once again they should be pretty easy to find, especially in the draft where 4th and 5th rders can provide great replacements.

I agree but it’s not happening. 
 

Btw we got the worst defensive mind in the division now

 

 #1 Belicheck 

#2 Fangio

#3 Salah 

#4 MCD/Frazier

59 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Ed Oliver is not long enough to be a super productive 5 tech

 

Those guys are 6’5 300 pounds

 

 Oliver Has to be a three tech

Oliver has to be traded . We need to move on from him and get whatever we can now for him. 

25 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don’t get it twisted… McDermott runs the team with beane under him

 

McDermott ran the first draft… Which gave us cornerstone pieces in Tre , Dawkins , Milano … Plus ammunition to move up to get Josh

 

McDermitt also Had his blue prints all over beane being hired

 

Beane has been really good with the cap and bringing in some guys … but his drafting record , especially in the meat rounds (2-3) is lacking 

 

his drafting hasn’t been top of the league 

 

McDermott Brought us out of 17 years of futility

 

 

Who brought him those players though it was Whaley and his front office. Maybe McD shouldn’t of stabbed Whaley in the back our team would definitely be better right now. 

[nosejob]

12 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I agree but it’s not happening. 
 

Btw we got the worst defensive mind in the division now

 

 #1 Belicheck 

#2 Fangio

#3 Salah 

#4 MCD/Frazier

Oliver has to be traded . We need to move on from him and get whatever we can now for him. 

Who brought him those players though it was Whaley and his front office. Maybe McD shouldn’t of stabbed Whaley in the back our team would definitely be better right now. 

Who stabbed who? Signed Fred Jackson

Edited February 4, 2023 by nosejob

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I agree but it’s not happening. 
 

Btw we got the worst defensive mind in the division now

 

 #1 Belicheck 

#2 Fangio

#3 Salah 

#4 MCD/Frazier

Oliver has to be traded . We need to move on from him and get whatever we can now for him. 

Who brought him those players though it was Whaley and his front office. Maybe McD shouldn’t of stabbed Whaley in the back our team would definitely be better right now. 

And somehow we have had the best defense of all of them lmao

[djp14150]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

We have been building a 4-3 defense since 2017 and it would take a complete overhaul to go to a defense never ran before by this coaching staff.

 

We were 4-3 before when Jaraun got fired.  If Gailey just focused on off and not touch the d the bills woukd have made the playoffs.  Gailey decided to do nepotism and hire his3-4 buddy.

[without a drought]

They don't run enough 3TE sets either.

 

They just don't have 3 starting TEs.

 

Thanks a lot Beane.

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

3/12 although I always value you’re opinion, it’s highly unlikely McD is going

to completely change his staff, personnel and change what has worked for him for the last 20 years.  He may be a disciple of the great Kimmy Johnson, the 3-4 defensive guru, he has chosen to move to a 4-3 under Ron Rivera.

Yes. I see the same.
I was just considering some 3-4 alignments to appease our OP

I mean Jones or Settle could man the 1 😉

[machine gun kelly]

14 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Yes. I see the same.
I was just considering some 3-4 alignments to appease our OP

I mean Jones or Settle could man the 1 😉

They have an occasional package where they have one of the ends drop simulate the 3-2-5.  Nickel is a staple for McD’s defenses.  It’s not like Frasier trumps McD’s wants, and most of the league is passing and McD believes in dropping 6-7.  They also like the two high coverage.  The problem was too many injuries at critical starters.  Hyde, and Von then  our depth really tested in the secondary especially.  Jordan Phillips was a big and penetrating influence.  Shaq was our third best End and set the edge.  

Honestly, our offense was more of the problem as erratic at times.

 

 

[Chaos]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Beane has 1 success … josh Allen 

 

McDermott drafted Tre White and Matt Milano and Dion Dawkins… And brought us to the playoffs after 17 years of obscurity

didn't that guy trade the pick that took Mahomes?

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Chaos said:

didn't that guy trade the pick that took Mahomes?

If you think scenario x = y in the nfl it doesn’t 

 

It’s no guarantee that Patrick Mahomes in a bills uniform is even remotely close to the same type of guy…. Seeing as he went to a much more stable organization

 

And a quarterback whisperer

 

Reports out of Mahomes rookie year was that he was garbage… From his own teammates

 

He got the benefit of sitting behind Alex Smith and learning like most NFL quarterback should… 

 

Josh Allen was thrown to the fire with an absolutely terrible surrounding cast

 

Not to mention we got Tre White out of the trade… We absolutely did not lose

 

We got two all pros… And is super star quarterback

 

 

[Thurman#1]

Nope.

[Old Coot]

Anything would be better than the Cover Zero we played in the Bengals game, as in cover zero receivers.

 

Note: engage sarcasm detectors.

 

Seriously, if you make major changes to the D you need some different players on D. If you do that you just mke it harder to upgrade our O.