Coaching Malpractice - Frazier Needs to be fired - the play that illustrates it

[YodaMan79]

18 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

Third and 4 (see below).  You all remember it.  This play is important for two reasons:

 

1.  It shows a complete lack of defensive situational awareness on what can be given up on a play.

2.  It is the exact same mistake that was made during 13 seconds.  On this play, they are guarding the end zone, but will easily give up the first down.  On 13 seconds, we were guarding the end zone, but willing to give up the two quick plays needed for a field goal.

 

It is actually worse because this play typified our defensive philosophy for most of the day.  I'm a level headed guy who does not normally call for firings (as if that matters), but this is beyond belief.  There is simply no excuse to give so much space in this situation.  I know I am not an expert.  In my mind, this only makes it worse.  Like probably half of Bills fandom, I was yelling at my screen before the snap.  Shouldn't an expert been able to see what we all saw?

 

I can be patient:

Trey - He wasn't what he was last year, but at least I can have hope that he will be back to his old self next year.

Poyer - Not his best game, but he was playing with Hyde, Hamlin, Marlowe, Johnson so I'll cut him some slack that he couldn't be himself.

Dorsey - Not happy with him, but I can at least talk myself into the fact that this was his first year as a coordinator.

 

But with Frazier I can have absolutely no confidence that he has learned how ridiculously bad this is.  Last year I was hoping that he would be hired away from us.  This year I don't think I have any hope of that.  

 

He's smarter than me, he knows more about defense than I ever will, yada, yada, but you don't have to work for NASA to realize that spacecraft need to be air tight. 

 

Don't sell yourself short.  They're normal people who most likely would struggle to do what you do for a living.  It's a game.  Once you understand the rules, matchups and concepts, it's not brain surgery.  In the not for long league, I'd say the emperor is missing his clothes more often than not.  Just look at the turnover and how some of these guys handle thoughtful questions from the media.   

[bills11]

12 hours ago, billieve420 said:

McDermott comes from Jim Johnson 4-3 attacking type system. I still believe it is more about the play caller versus system itself. McDermott should be on hot seat next year and take on calling plays. I just can’t see anything changing much if things remain status quo. Hopefully someone hires Frazier to be their HC but don’t see that happening.

Yeah im aware he learned under jim johnson but his scheme is very different. His defense atleast since Carolina has been a cover 3 zone based system with pressure expected to come from the front 4 ..fraziers background is in Tampa 2 ..they run nickel based zone defences more than any team in the nfl since they've been here.

[Tanoros]

18 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Normally i’d agree, but in this particular situation, the OP’s photo really does tell the truth.

The Bills lined up 10 yards off the ball and never moved. Even after the snap. Tre only moved after the ball was caught.

 

So incredibly easy to beat.

 

Here is a photo after the snap.

 

I hate to say it because of all the resources put into the defensive line, but the lack of a pass rush is what makes this that much easier to beat. All the defense needs is 1 guy to force the QB to move off of his spot and it’s not an easy play. 

[LabattBlue]

Firing(not re-signing) Frazier only means one of the McD/Frazier disciples currently on staff would probably get promoted to run the same crappy McD scheme.  All about continuity. Woohoo!

Edited January 24, 2023 by LabattBlue

[Norcalbillsfan]

8 hours ago, Billl said:

From a coaching standpoint, yes.  White was in position to tackle Chase short of a first down.  That’s all a coach can do.  If your best CB misses a tackle, you’ve got a personnel issue.

I disagree, tre was 4 yards past the marker, about 8-9 yard cushion on chase that only needs 4 yards with a quick trigger QB on a zero blitz, absolute no brainer for burrow, watch the all 22, burrow stares down chase pre snap to completion. Not to mention your asking your CB that's a bad tackler to come down hill make a tackle at the marker instead of playing up and playing the ball that's his strength.

[Behindenemylines]

I am hoping that Pegula is speaking with the Team management and making it clear changes need to be made, and that insider guys will not be acceptable 

 

we need a strong DC that doesn’t play scared and won’t accept soft play. 
 

 

[dakrider]

Bills were playing as if they were simply hoping Bengals would drop the ball or make a mistake instead of trying to force them to make a mistake.

I think in this game had Allen and Co. played well and maybe even scored 27 points, Bills still would have lost. 

[97bills]

21 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Normally i’d agree, but in this particular situation, the OP’s photo really does tell the truth.

The Bills lined up 10 yards off the ball and never moved. Even after the snap. Tre only moved after the ball was caught.

 

So incredibly easy to beat.

 

Here is a photo after the snap.

 

I see 4 players that could’ve got the first down. Easy…. 

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Norcalbillsfan said:

I disagree, tre was 4 yards past the marker, about 8-9 yard cushion on chase that only needs 4 yards with a quick trigger QB on a zero blitz, absolute no brainer for burrow, watch the all 22, burrow stares down chase pre snap to completion. Not to mention your asking your CB that's a bad tackler to come down hill make a tackle at the marker instead of playing up and playing the ball that's his strength.

Players line up behind the first down marker on nearly every play.  White was 3 yards behind the marker.  Chase was lined up 6 yards from it.  White had to close 3 yards in the amount of time it took Burrow to catch the snap, throw to Chase, and for Chase to run forward 6 yards.  White did so in plenty of time.  (That’s a coaching win). White missed the tackle because Chase big-brothered him.  That’s not a coaching failure.  The Bengals players were bigger, faster, and stronger than the Bills players all day long.  Some of that was due to being without Von and Hyde and White and Poyer being less than 100%, but in the end it was their Jimmies beating your Joes.  No amount of firing the guy who presided over the number one and two scoring defenses the past two seasons would have changed that fact.

[97bills]

8 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

How many times does our defense have to get completely annihilated in the playoffs before changes are made? This is 3 in a row now. Frazier cannot be here next year and none of you guys can seriously believe he’s a head coaching candidate can you?

 

I’d get rid of Dorsey too. Zero rhythm to this offense, zero synch between running and passing schemes, zero use of our running backs in the passing game. Way to shorten the lifespan of our QB you absolute joke of an OC. He’s in way over his head and allowing Josh to have that much input into the OC was a mistake.

 

 

Drop the mic…. Well said and all true!!!!!  I mean how can you bring either coordinators back. Especially. Frazier 

[PauleeeWalnuts]

5 minutes ago, 97bills said:

Drop the mic…. Well said and all true!!!!!  I mean how can you bring either coordinators back. Especially. Frazier 

Well Beane already said in so many words that Dorsey will be back. I didnt hear anyone ask for a DC update at the presser but I’m starting to get the queasy feeling he isn’t going anywhere either

[DuckyBoys]

wont be any big changes  They will try and sell continuity and we will see the same result 

[97bills]

4 minutes ago, PaulieYayo said:

Well Beane already said in so many words that Dorsey will be back. I didnt hear anyone ask for a DC update at the presser but I’m starting to get the queasy feeling he isn’t going anywhere either

Yea that sucks… and I never was that guy screaming to fire someone, but I think we’ve seen this movie to many times. That system on defense isn’t going to get it done in big games. Teams either pound the ball on us or a good QB just picks us apart. 

[SirAndrew]

13 minutes ago, PaulieYayo said:

Well Beane already said in so many words that Dorsey will be back. I didnt hear anyone ask for a DC update at the presser but I’m starting to get the queasy feeling he isn’t going anywhere either

Remarkable that no one asked about the DC at a press conference. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

32 minutes ago, Billl said:

Players line up behind the first down marker on nearly every play.  White was 3 yards behind the marker.  Chase was lined up 6 yards from it.  White had to close 3 yards in the amount of time it took Burrow to catch the snap, throw to Chase, and for Chase to run forward 6 yards.  White did so in plenty of time.  (That’s a coaching win). White missed the tackle because Chase big-brothered him.  That’s not a coaching failure.  The Bengals players were bigger, faster, and stronger than the Bills players all day long.  Some of that was due to being without Von and Hyde and White and Poyer being less than 100%, but in the end it was their Jimmies beating your Joes.  No amount of firing the guy who presided over the number one and two scoring defenses the past two seasons would have changed that fact.

Agree to disagree, I see it differently and so do many other fans. But I agree bengals we're bigger and stronger all day. And no one is denying Fraziers success during the season. It's the fans like me that are tired of giving up over 30 points 2 years in a row and 27 this year when honestly it should have been way more, the Bengals were just burning clock end of the 3rd. Lots of fans don't see a path to a SB if your defense now has consistently given up over 30 to elite teams when it matters. Fraziers bend but don't break defense has been only breaking against elite qbs when it matters.

[frostbitmic]

14 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Those that hope a team is “dumb enough” to hire Frazier; What’s really the difference between Frazier and McDermott as HC?
 

Leadership? Maybe, but the team comes out flat in that game so what’s that really worth.

 

Our in-conference rivals are probably thinking “I hope the Bills are dumb enough to keep McDermott”

McD gets emotional and claps, Frazier stands there looking like Jauron.

[gobills404]

22 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Tre is toast too.  It sucks.  Hard to believe that next year he will be THAT much better than this year

 

[ArtVandalay]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

And White reacted slow and missed the tackle. Our best CB. Let’s not let him off the hook.

Oh yes, exactly, there was no other option on this play. You can't be serious. Play was a free first down. 

[ArtVandalay]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

No that’s what Miami did on 3rd and 15. I definitely wouldn’t do a zero on 3rd and 15.

 

This call is supposed to create a quick throw short of the sticks. It did. Tre White was supposed to react quicker and make the tackle. He not only reacts slow but he misses the tackle.
 

Im not a fan of the call simply because I don’t think we tackle well as a defense plus poor footing. I would rather make the offense throw a tighter throw.

This sort of thing works against crappy QBs with blah WRs... Your Mac Jones and Tyquan Thorntons of the world...  It certainly doesn't work vs playoff teams with 4.3 stud WRs strong after the catch and elite QBs with split second releases and premier decision making. 

 

This is why our "defensive guru" of a head coach flops in the playoffs every year. 

 

It's negligent.

[BillzFreak]

Again with a zero blitz called you do give cushion to the receivers but it's depending on the yards to gain, 3rd and 4 means you give about 6 yards of cushion max, not 8 or 9 yards. The goal is to force a quick throw and then make a tackle short of the line to gain. Frasier literally tells these guys to drop back more yards then needed because he is scared. Plain and simple...white missed the tackle but even if he makes it chase was already at line to gain. So blame the players all you want, but his way of coaching this defense will never win in the playoffs against a great offense.

Edited January 25, 2023 by BillzFreak

[Billl]

44 minutes ago, BillzFreak said:

Again with a zero blitz called you do give cushion to the receivers but it's depending on the yards to gain, 3rd and 4 means you give about 6 yards of cushion max, not 8 or 9 yards. The goal is to force a quick throw and then make a tackle short of the line to gain.

That’s exactly what happened. Problem is, White was overmatched by Chase.  Chase plowed through White and got a first down, but he was stopped short of the goal line.  The Bills lost the battle, but they were able to hold the Bengals out of the end zone and made them settle for a FG…the exact same result as if White had made the tackle.

 

If Frazier had asked White to press Chase, the most likely result is that Chase beats him for a TD.  The same physical mismatch that allowed Chase to drag him for a first down would have given him the advantage against White’s press.  However, in the event that White had stepped up and made a great play…the Bengals would still would have kicked a FG.

 

Buffalo needed a stop there, and they got one.  They held Cincy to a FG, and then only allowed 10 more points the rest of the game.  That’s not bad.  You can beat the Bengals when you allow 27 points.  You can’t beat them when you score 10.  Leslie Frazier couldn’t shut down one of the best offenses in football without Miller, Hyde, Hamlin, or DaQuan and with White and Poyer at considerably less than 100%.  That’s not surprising.  Scoring 10 points was the surprise.

[peterpan]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:28 PM, FrenchConnection said:

Frazier can’t be fired because his contract expires after this season. He can, however, not be renewed.

First smile I’ve had since Sunday.  Please god let this be true!

[BillzFreak]

Just now, Billl said:

That’s exactly what happened. Problem is, White was overmatched by Chase.  Chase plowed through White and got a first down, but he was stopped short of the goal line.  The Bills lost the battle, but they were able to hold the Bengals out of the end zone and made them settle for a FG…the exact same result as if White had made the tackle.

 

If Frazier had asked White to press Chase, the most likely result is that Chase beats him for a TD.  The same physical mismatch that allowed Chase to drag him for a first down would have given him the advantage against White’s press.  However, in the event that White had stepped up and made a great play…the Bengals would still would have kicked a FG.

 

Buffalo needed a stop there, and they got one.  They held Cincy to a FG, and then only allowed 10 more points the rest of the game.  That’s not bad.  You can beat the Bengals when you allow 27 points.  You can’t beat them when you score 10.  Leslie Frazier couldn’t shut down one of the best offenses in football without Miller, Hyde, Hamlin, or DaQuan and with White and Poyer at considerably less than 100%.  That’s not surprising.  Scoring 10 points was the surprise.

I understand what you're saying but my point is he gave to much chusion on that play, the point is to make Burrow throw quick and chase catches the ball and trey should be there right when he catches it. Like a bang bang type of play. Chase caught the ball and was able to start running before Trey went for the tackle. And like you said once he caught it and was able to run it was over. Yes they eventually got a field goal on that drive which is what we wanted, but Frasier plays that defense all game. It's no surprise the Bengals were able to get 30 first downs on us. Yes it's on the players and coaches but that gameplan against that team wasn't going to work. They scored 27 but if they had to I'm pretty sure they could of scored more.

[LABILLBACKER]

Hopefully they don't renew his contract.  But whoever replaces him will be forced to run Derm's defense. 

[BillsFanForever19]

There's only 8 defenders in the picture, so obviously the other 3 are playing deep.

 

That's something that's driven me nuts though watching Bills Defense the past few years. They are consistently playing at least one CB 8-10 yards deep. They just give teams 1st Downs at will if they accept what is given.

 

The "bend but don't break" approach sometimes prevents the long ball. But it puts the team in Goal Line situations far too often bc the opponent can just march down the field.

Edited January 25, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[stevestojan]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:30 PM, Einstein said:

 

Normally i’d agree, but in this particular situation, the OP’s photo really does tell the truth.

The Bills lined up 10 yards off the ball and never moved. Even after the snap. Tre only moved after the ball was caught.

 

So incredibly easy to beat.

 

Here is a photo after the snap.

 

This picture is unreal. Frazier should be fired for a list of reasons. But this alone should be enough. 

[PrimeTime101]

Let him walk.

[Livinginthepast]

8 hours ago, Billl said:

That’s exactly what happened. Problem is, White was overmatched by Chase.  Chase plowed through White and got a first down, but he was stopped short of the goal line.  The Bills lost the battle, but they were able to hold the Bengals out of the end zone and made them settle for a FG…the exact same result as if White had made the tackle.

 

If Frazier had asked White to press Chase, the most likely result is that Chase beats him for a TD.  The same physical mismatch that allowed Chase to drag him for a first down would have given him the advantage against White’s press.  However, in the event that White had stepped up and made a great play…the Bengals would still would have kicked a FG.

 

Buffalo needed a stop there, and they got one.  They held Cincy to a FG, and then only allowed 10 more points the rest of the game.  That’s not bad.  You can beat the Bengals when you allow 27 points.  You can’t beat them when you score 10.  Leslie Frazier couldn’t shut down one of the best offenses in football without Miller, Hyde, Hamlin, or DaQuan and with White and Poyer at considerably less than 100%.  That’s not surprising.  Scoring 10 points was the surprise.

I think the Bills got a stop there only because the Bengals need room to run their offense and within the 10 yard line there isnt the optimum amount of space.  Frazier cant run a soft zone with Dbs standing 10- 15 yards back because they literally dont have 10-15 yards from the LOS. Ironically Fraziers soft zone is forced by the field position to be closer to the receivers making its closer to man.

[Coffeesforclosers]

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Hopefully they don't renew his contract.  But whoever replaces him will be forced to run Derm's defense. 

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but the Cover 1 guys got into this as well. They said that Frazier and McD's defense is tapped out.  That the players have mastered all of its schemes and concepts, and all Frazier could do was add more audibles and checks.  Bills players were telling them that there were as many as 14 checks per defensive call.  That the defense has reached Rex Ryan levels of overcomplicated.

 

Meanwhile, offenses have learned.  Since the Bills only have a handful of formations and personnel groupings, pre snap motion is guaranteed to get defenders out of position. We've seen it over and over again, where motion creates coverage mismatches, or pulls run defenders out of the box. 

[T master]

Not real sure that your evaluation is the best the Bills love to disguise what they are showing on defense before the snap & we don't see what happened as the play moves forward .

 

I agree that with who the wide outs they are defending our DB's need to jam the hell out of them at the line to disrupt the play but just not sure what was as the play moves forward .

[billsherd]

Bills thought cover the endzone as they might take a shot or play the run and totally ignored the sticks. Not saying its  the right way to go about it

[Trogdor]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:19 PM, Long Suffering Fan said:

Trey - He wasn't what he was last year, but at least I can have hope that he will be back to his old self next year.

Trey wasn't exactly lighting it up before the injury either. He was getting picked on more as teams showed that they weren't scared of him. Shut down corner might be the shortest window in all of football and now with the mental struggles it's looking less likely. He will still be good, but I wouldn't expect Revis. 

[WideNine]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:19 PM, Long Suffering Fan said:

Third and 4 (see below).  You all remember it.  This play is important for two reasons:

 

1.  It shows a complete lack of defensive situational awareness on what can be given up on a play.

2.  It is the exact same mistake that was made during 13 seconds.  On this play, they are guarding the end zone, but will easily give up the first down.  On 13 seconds, we were guarding the end zone, but willing to give up the two quick plays needed for a field goal.

 

It is actually worse because this play typified our defensive philosophy for most of the day.  I'm a level headed guy who does not normally call for firings (as if that matters), but this is beyond belief.  There is simply no excuse to give so much space in this situation.  I know I am not an expert.  In my mind, this only makes it worse.  Like probably half of Bills fandom, I was yelling at my screen before the snap.  Shouldn't an expert been able to see what we all saw?

 

I can be patient:

Trey - He wasn't what he was last year, but at least I can have hope that he will be back to his old self next year.

Poyer - Not his best game, but he was playing with Hyde, Hamlin, Marlowe, Johnson so I'll cut him some slack that he couldn't be himself.

Dorsey - Not happy with him, but I can at least talk myself into the fact that this was his first year as a coordinator.

 

But with Frazier I can have absolutely no confidence that he has learned how ridiculously bad this is.  Last year I was hoping that he would be hired away from us.  This year I don't think I have any hope of that.  

 

He's smarter than me, he knows more about defense than I ever will, yada, yada, but you don't have to work for NASA to realize that spacecraft need to be air tight. 

 

This defense IMO relies on offenses making mistakes and is designed to keep things in front of defenders by playing off receivers and only giving up short completions.

 

Problems arise when your DL cannot pressure the QB into mistakes, when facing a QB that is elite and can deliver even with pressure, and your secondary defenders miss on tackles or get dragged past the sticks vs larger WRs and TEs.

 

You simply give up chunks of yards and extended drives as they work their way down the field.

 

Even worse if you are giving up a 1st down on the doorstep and the opposing team has 3 opportunities to either hit a variety of talented receiving options or go with the running game that is churning out 5-8 yards a pop.

 

We may be scheme-constrained with coaching, but I think we definitely did not have the pieces needed to help make our existing scheme effective.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by WideNine

[PauleeeWalnuts]

Says it all right here 

[bills742]