Slot receiver?

[Deadstroke]

I have no problem thinking that our #1 & #2 wideouts are fine, and the same goes for TE, but what in the world do we do about the slot?  When we had Beasley it seemed that when needed Josh could look his way for 6 or 8 yards anyway.  Not anymore.  Now what?  What is the problem?  Who is the man? 🤥

[MAJBobby]

Shakir or McKenzie need to step up. I also do not like Dorsey’s route concepts to be honest. Daboll being gone really has hurt the design of the offense. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Deadstroke said:

I have no problem thinking that our #1 & #2 wideouts are fine, and the same goes for TE, but what in the world do we do about the slot?  When we had Beasley it seemed that when needed Josh could look his way for 6 or 8 yards anyway.  Not anymore.  Now what?  What is the problem?  Who is the man? 🤥

 

Play design is probably part of it.  There is no man also.  They are trying to use a bunch of different guys in those spots and you can add hines to the list.  Mckenzie, shakir, Cook, and probably hines now all are going to get looks in different ways.  

 

It's not ideal but you can get a lot out of it if you're creative.  

[DasNootz]

I think Shakir is that guy, and hopefully his role will start to pick up similar to what we've seen from Cook.   McKenzie seems like a great guy, but I have little trust in him at this point.  

Edited November 21, 2022 by DasNootz

[Matt_In_NH]

This does seem to be an ever increasing obvious deficiency

[78thealltimegreat]

I’m not really ok with thinking Gabe Davis is some kind of great number 2 receiver either. He has a ton of drops and according to Patrick Peterson only runs 3 routes. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, DasNootz said:

I think Shakir is that guy, and hopefully his role will start to pick up similar to what we've seen from Cook.   McKenzie seems like a great guy, but I have little trust in him at this point.  

 

I don't hate mckenzie as an option, he's been one of our better red zone players even if he didn't make it on the one in this game.  I just think there's been some route spacing issues lately and I don't know who it is.  People are sitting when they shouldn't, balls aren't coming out fast enough, and players are just ending up on top of each other.  

[clayboy54]

McKenzie is just another guy. Really, he’s just the class clown. The guy has nothing except speed. As an example, the 2-point play yesterday could’ve been converted if he stuck his left foot in the turf and cut it up at the 1. Instead, he doesn’t see that lane. Plus, he’s so tiny that he is afraid to take the hit. This is a terrible trait in football.

 

And for some reason, Lil Dirty loses his concentration at the most in opportune times.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

53 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Shakir or McKenzie need to step up. I also do not like Dorsey’s route concepts to be honest. Daboll being gone really has hurt the design of the offense. 

I really don't like the tight formations. 

 

I think the spacing is terrible. 

 

We have too many plays that remind me of the Knox TD against Indianapolis in the Playoff game. 

 

Tight bunch formations, with Allen having to make heaves to players on the sidelines. 

 

The offense flowed better in 2020 when the Bills ran a true 4-wide, empty set offense. 

 

On the positive, I noticed the Bills using the toss sweep run play to Cook, allowing him to get the ball in his hands much faster than that shotgun RPO stuff.  

53 minutes ago, DasNootz said:

I think Shakir is that guy, and hopefully his role will start to pick up similar to what we've seen from Cook.   McKenzie seems like a great guy, but I have little trust in him at this point.  

They have to do something, watching McKenzie, Shakir and Gentry warmup with Diggs and Davis, the drop off is enormous. 

[whorlnut]

44 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’m not really ok with thinking Gabe Davis is some kind of great number 2 receiver either. He has a ton of drops and according to Patrick Peterson only runs 3 routes. 

Totally agree. Davis hasn’t really stepped up the way we all hoped he would. He’s been decent at times and other times he’s been pretty bad. We still need to upgrade at WR. 

6 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

McKenzie is just another guy. Really, he’s just the class clown. The guy has nothing except speed. As an example, the 2-point play yesterday could’ve been converted if he stuck his left foot in the turf and cut it up at the 1. Instead, he doesn’t see that lane. Plus, he’s so tiny that he is afraid to take the hit. This is a terrible trait in football.

 

And for some reason, Lil Dirty loses his concentration at the most in opportune times.

Agree with this. Likable guy but not a good football player. I think too many fans give him a pass because he is so likable and has a catchy nickname. The production just isn’t there…

[NewEra]

Agreed.  Dirtys failures and McD/Dorsey’s reluctance to give Shakir more targets/snaps has been agonizing.  The slot had played a big role in our offense for the previous 3 seasons.  Especially on 3rd down.  Now, it’s an afterthought.  Dorsey needs to find his way and find the ability to scheme guys open.  

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Shakir or McKenzie need to step up. I also do not like Dorsey’s route concepts to be honest. Daboll being gone really has hurt the design of the offense. 

I think next year Shakir takes over slot assignment. I also wouldn't be opposed to putting Hines there. McKenzie's days on this team are numbered. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

 

Also getting no production from the #4 WR position that Gabe Davis held had last year.  

[Repulsif]

Simply put, we miss Beasley

[whorlnut]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

I think next year Shakir takes over slot assignment. I also wouldn't be opposed to putting Hines there. McKenzie's days on this team are numbered. 

I agree. I think Shakir is our future at slot and I’m good with that. He’s way more physical and gets YAC. He catches contested balls too. It’s really tough to see McKenzie out there and Shakir riding pine. 
 

I also think we need to take a WR high in the draft this year. I can’t imagine that they’ve seen enough from Davis to think he’s the undisputed 2 and I highly doubt they pay him after next year. Time to hedge bets and bring in competition and have a solid 2 waiting in the wings. 

1 minute ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Also getting no production from the #4 WR position that Gabe Davis held had last year.  

Imo, Davis is a great 4, and an average 2. 

[clayboy54]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Agreed.  Dirtys failures and McD/Dorsey’s reluctance to give Shakir more targets/snaps has been agonizing.  The slot had played a big role in our offense for the previous 3 seasons.  Especially on 3rd down.  Now, it’s an afterthought.  Dorsey needs to find his way and find the ability to scheme guys open.  

I agree that Dorsey’s learning curve has affected on-field production this season. But, let’s not forget that Dabol went long stretches where he was unable to be flexible enough to shelve the cute plays and just hammer the ball. Dorsey has a lot of room for positive growth. Dabol is Dabol.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, clayboy54 said:

I agree that Dorsey’s learning curve has affected on-field production this season. But, let’s not forget that Dabol went long stretches where he was unable to be flexible enough to shelve the cute plays and just hammer the ball. Dorsey has a lot of room for positive growth. Dabol is Dabol.

Could you imagine having a long 3 game stretch where the offense looks like shite?  That's crazy.

[Bob in STL]

We need to improve the WR2 position and try moving Davis to #3 slot.  

 

Crowder hurt is not helping and even he did not seem like a natural fit.  

 

Shakir will hopefully break through at some point. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Shakir or McKenzie need to step up. I also do not like Dorsey’s route concepts to be honest. Daboll being gone really has hurt the design of the offense. 

 

Shakir &/or Hines may need to fill in there. Hines moved out to slot in 9 of 10 plays he was in for per Joe Bascaglia of the Athletic. 

 

Greg Cosell pointed out last Friday (on 1 Bills Live) that Dorsey doesn't help his WRs, he puts them out on an island & expects them to win 1 on 1 every time, there's no stacked or bunched formations, no picks & rub routes, no quick slants. He said Daboll mixed those things in. I watched this last game & sure enough Greg was right. Hopefully Dorsey is learning & starts scheming the slit guys open more.

[TheWei44]

29 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

McKenzie is just another guy. Really, he’s just the class clown. The guy has nothing except speed. As an example, the 2-point play yesterday could’ve been converted if he stuck his left foot in the turf and cut it up at the 1. Instead, he doesn’t see that lane. Plus, he’s so tiny that he is afraid to take the hit. This is a terrible trait in football.

 

And for some reason, Lil Dirty loses his concentration at the most in opportune times.

Agree, I think the same play with Cook gives us the two points there.

[ToGoGo]

I'm stunned at how fast the fanbase has given up on Davis because he's going through a slump, likely due to some injury. 

 

All of you will flip flop on him by the end of the year. Ridiculous. 

[Inigo Montoya]

The offense is still not hitting on all cylinders and McKenzie had another forgettable game yesterday.  McKenzie's 2022 stats so far;  24 receptions,  219 yards and 3 TDs.  He's also had 5 rushes for 35 yards and 1 TD.  This is a huge fall in slot production compared to Beasley who had 82 receptions for 693 yards and 1 TD last year, even as Beasley's focus in the offense was diminished.

 

Dorsey continued to involve James Cook in game plans taking baby steps since the start the season.  That investment is starting to pay off now and he is turning into a legitimate threat with the ball in his hands and has the potential to be a real weapon for this offense in the playoffs.  Dorsey needs to make more of an effort to do the same thing with Shakir. 

 

Through the last five games;

McKenzie;  average of 56% of snaps a game, average of 3 targets a game.

Shakir;  average of 14% of snaps a game, average of 1.2 targets a game

 

Shakir should be splitting series with McKenzie evenly to see what he's got.  If Shakir plays well he can gradually start to overtake McKenzie.  Shakir hasn't done anything in his limited playing time that would make you think he's a liability out there.  We have seven weeks until the playoffs start and I think Dorsey needs to make a bigger effort to see what Shakir can do and try to develop another weapon for a Bills offense that is sputtering.

 

Hines is still learning the play book and I understand why he hasn't seen a lot of snaps so far.  He sure looks good in the return game and It would be great to get that speed on the field for this offense.  He isn't a true WR but can certainly play the slot if they need him too.  He might be an answer in the slot for a dozen plays a game.  I wonder if Hines would have converted that 2 point try yesterday?  He's just as fast as McKenzie and packs more of a punch when he puts his shoulder down.  

 

There's going to be a lot of competition for OBJ and the Bills may not land him.  Dorsey may have to look in house for another weapon for Josh in the passing game.  Our slot position is not producing and Dorsey needs to fix it somehow.  I'm not hating on McKenzie, how can you not like the guy?  I didn't expect him to completely replace Beasley's production, but the truth of the matter is that he's simply underperforming for the offense this season.  Dorsey needs to see what we have in Shakir and Hines in the next several weeks before the playoffs start and see if they can increase slot production.

[Brand J]

22 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

McKenzie is just another guy. Really, he’s just the class clown. The guy has nothing except speed. As an example, the 2-point play yesterday could’ve been converted if he stuck his left foot in the turf and cut it up at the 1. Instead, he doesn’t see that lane. Plus, he’s so tiny that he is afraid to take the hit. This is a terrible trait in football.

 

And for some reason, Lil Dirty loses his concentration at the most in opportune times.

Agree with all the above except the bolded. He was running flat out full speed towards the pylon. I don’t know if you’ve played sports, but when you have your full momentum going one way it’s impossible to change direction without slowing down. If he slowed down to cut it up he runs into the defender anyway as that guy was behind the play and had the angle. He didn’t think the defender also had the speed to catch him. The fault on that conversion is for Gilliam missing his block. 
 

Also, I find it curious McK hasn’t been crucified for what he was doing on Josh’s first pick against the Vikes last week. I heard others mention he just stood out of bounds the entire play, but I didn’t realize the extent to which how bad it was. It was a benchable offense. He was literally run out of the play by Peterson and then stood in place as Allen ran his way and Peterson intercepted the pass. At a bare minimum, when Allen was running that direction McK either has to run the opposite direction to pull his defender away from Allen, or block his defender from tackling his QB in the event he should run. He did neither, just stood and watched everything for a good 5 seconds from out of bounds. Didn’t even pursue Peterson after the INT.

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, ToGoGo said:

I'm stunned at how fast the fanbase has given up on Davis because he's going through a slump, likely due to some injury. 

 

All of you will flip flop on him by the end of the year. Ridiculous. 

Nobody is giving up on him. Good grief. Some of us just see him as more of a 4 than a 2. He hasn’t stepped up his current role. He was REALLY good as a 4, though. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

The offense is still not hitting on all cylinders and McKenzie had another forgettable game yesterday.  McKenzie's 2022 stats so far;  24 receptions,  219 yards and 3 TDs.  He's also had 5 rushes for 35 yards and 1 TD.  This is a huge fall in slot production compared to Beasley who had 82 receptions for 693 yards and 1 TD last year, even as Beasley's focus in the offense was diminished.

 

Dorsey continued to involve James Cook in game plans taking baby steps since the start the season.  That investment is starting to pay off now and he is turning into a legitimate threat with the ball in his hands and has the potential to be a real weapon for this offense in the playoffs.  Dorsey needs to make more of an effort to do the same thing with Shakir. 

 

Through the last five games;

McKenzie;  average of 56% of snaps a game, average of 3 targets a game.

Shakir;  average of 14% of snaps a game, average of 1.2 targets a game

 

Shakir should be splitting series with McKenzie evenly to see what he's got.  If Shakir plays well he can gradually start to overtake McKenzie.  Shakir hasn't done anything in his limited playing time that would make you think he's a liability out there.  We have seven weeks until the playoffs start and I think Dorsey needs to make a bigger effort to see what Shakir can do and try to develop another weapon for a Bills offense that is sputtering.

 

Hines is still learning the play book and I understand why he hasn't seen a lot of snaps so far.  He sure looks good in the return game and It would be great to get that speed on the field for this offense.  He isn't a true WR but can certainly play the slot if they need him too.  He might be an answer in the slot for a dozen plays a game.  I wonder if Hines would have converted that 2 point try yesterday?  He's just as fast as McKenzie and packs more of a punch when he puts his shoulder down.  

 

There's going to be a lot of competition for OBJ and the Bills may not land him.  Dorsey may have to look in house for another weapon for Josh in the passing game.  Our slot position is not producing and Dorsey needs to fix it somehow.  I'm not hating on McKenzie, how can you not like the guy?  I didn't expect him to completely replace Beasley's production, but the truth of the matter is that he's simply underperforming for the offense this season.  Dorsey needs to see what we have in Shakir and Hines in the next several weeks before the playoffs start and see if they can increase slot production.

 

My issue is... everyone loves Shakir and he hasn't actually done anything of note.  He has 2 drops on 15 targets, and only has 7 catches.  We complain on Davis drops and catch% and his drop rate is actually worse.  

 

Play to the players strengths.  Get mckenzie moving, create your own mis matches.  He's not a sudden cole beasley route runner, so don't have him run cole beasley routes.  They did it more in this one, and it functioned a bit more as eye candy than anything else, but eye candy is useful.  

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Agree with all the above except the bolded. He was running flat out full speed towards the pylon. I don’t know if you’ve played sports, but when you have your full momentum going one way it’s impossible to change direction without slowing down. If he slowed down to cut it up he runs into the defender anyway as that guy was behind the play and had the angle. He didn’t think the defender also had the speed to catch him. The fault on that conversion is for Gilliam missing his block. 
 

Also, I find it curious McK hasn’t been crucified for what he was doing on Josh’s first pick against the Vikes last week. I heard others mention he just stood out of bounds the entire play, but I didn’t realize the extent to which how bad it was. It was a benchable offense. He was literally run out of the play by Peterson and then stood in place as Allen ran his way and Peterson intercepted the pass. At a bare minimum, when Allen was running that direction McK either has to run the opposite direction to pull his defender away from Allen, or block his defender from tackling his QB in the event he should run. He did neither, just stood and watched everything for a good 5 seconds from out of bounds. Didn’t even pursue Peterson after the INT.

I agree. I can’t for the life of me figure out how McKenzie continues to get opportunities with this team. I hated the off-season extension because I thought there was an obvious need to upgrade. I think Beane and McD need to stop with this “great locker room guy” BS and start getting better players for the offense. We have the leaders in the locker room that can handle a more volatile personality. 

[Boatdrinks]

Not everything pans out , even for good GM’s . Crowder got hurt, McKenzie wasn’t ready to step up with more reps. Most thought Davis was ready ( not slot ) but he hasn’t lived up to his billing. The Bills may be stuck with what they have at this point. 

[whorlnut]

Just now, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

My issue is... everyone loves Shakir and he hasn't actually done anything of note.  He has 2 drops on 15 targets, and only has 7 catches.  We complain on Davis drops and catch% and his drop rate is actually worse.  

 

Play to the players strengths.  Get mckenzie moving, create your own mis matches.  He's not a sudden cole beasley route runner, so don't have him run cole beasley routes.  They did it more in this one, and it functioned a bit more as eye candy than anything else, but eye candy is useful.  

McKenzie is a decent gadget guy, that’s it. He’s not a good slot. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, whorlnut said:

McKenzie is a decent gadget guy, that’s it. He’s not a good slot. 

 

Apparently neither is shakir since he cannot catch when thrown at. 

[ToGoGo]

4 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Nobody is giving up on him. Good grief. Some of us just see him as more of a 4 than a 2. He hasn’t stepped up his current role. He was REALLY good as a 4, though. 

 

He's a very good 2. All of you have flip flopped. It's embarrassing and will be even moreso by playoff time when he's recovered from whatever is ailing him. 

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

 

He's a very good 2. All of you have flip flopped. It's embarrassing and will be even moreso by playoff time when he's recovered from whatever is ailing him. 

A “very good 2”?  Come on man…that’s a bit of a stretch, but whatever. 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I'm stunned at how fast the fanbase has given up on Davis because he's going through a slump, likely due to some injury. 

 

All of you will flip flop on him by the end of the year. Ridiculous. 

Davis is a bit frustrating thus far as the #2, but he’s starting to show that he can make the normal chain moving plays.. so hopefully it’s starting to slowly come together for him.  
 

The frustration towards him is exacerbated by our slot wr being nonexistent.  
 

Can’t think of too many teams that primarily pass the ball and only deploy two WR’s they’ll throw to / rely on.  
 

All anyone has to do is throw on a KC game, and see how they scheme and use 4-5 WR’s around Kelce.   Our passing offense looks like a JV dumpster fire compared to them right now. 

[LABILLBACKER]

23 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I'm stunned at how fast the fanbase has given up on Davis because he's going through a slump, likely due to some injury. 

 

All of you will flip flop on him by the end of the year. Ridiculous. 

No one's given up on him but you're being naive if you don't identify his inconsistencies. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

No one's given up on him but you're being naive if you don't identify his inconsistencies. 

 

Pretty much where I'm at with Mckenzie.  Everyone says "allen doesn't trust him".  A this point allen doesn't look like he trusts himself.  

[Iverwig]

Is it really a receiver problem or offensive coordinator/scheme problem?  The receivers were a lot better and getting open the first few games and now they all suck except Diggs. Does Shakir deserve more snaps? Maybe, but none of us are aware what goes on in practice. There is a reason he is not playing more and getting more targets. McKenzie is not Beasley and they both have different skill sets. Many fans wanted Beasley run out of town last year now everyone wants McKenzie to be him. 
 

Yes, Davis and McKenzie have had drops but so have other receivers on other teams. They are not Diggs. Diggs is an elite receiver. I believe the main issue is more Dorsey and his scheme. Teams have caught up to the offensive scheme and adjustments are not being made. Prior to his TD yesterday Diggs had zero targets. I don’t want to hear they blanketed him with multiple defenders because good coordinators find ways to get their star the ball. It’s not like Cleveland had an elite DB to take Diggs out. 
 

We all have an opinion on it but there is definitely a problem. Hopefully the issue gets rectified before it’s too late. 

[NewEra]

46 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

I agree that Dorsey’s learning curve has affected on-field production this season. But, let’s not forget that Dabol went long stretches where he was unable to be flexible enough to shelve the cute plays and just hammer the ball. Dorsey has a lot of room for positive growth. Dabol is Dabol.

Sure….Daboll had his drawbacks.  No doubt.  But he used the slot….and that’s why this thread is about.  2 years ago, our slot WR was 2nd team all pro-  while our WR1 first team all pro. Dorsey has turned our slot position into an abyss of irrelevance.  
 

Maybe dirty, shakir and crowders injury are partly to blame, but I don’t think this is what Dorsey and McD had in mind with slot production.  1 target- 0 catches

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Sure….Daboll had his drawbacks.  No doubt.  But he used the slot….and that’s why this thread is about.  2 years ago, our slot WR was 2nd team all pro-  while our WR1 first team all pro. Dorsey has turned our slot position into an abyss of irrelevance.  
 

Maybe dirty, shakir and crowders injury are partly to blame, but I don’t think this is what Dorsey and McD had in mind with slot production.  1 target- 0 catches

I think it has a lot to do with them hoping McKenzie could be beasley’s replacement. He’s nowhere near that level. Not even close. It was a bad miscalculation on Beane’s behalf. The really frustrating thing is the lack of usage for Shakir. He Is a bigger guy, he’s fast, way more physical. He’s been in the system for a while now…give him more burn. He’s the unknown, while we all know what we have in McKenzie at this point. 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

I think it has a lot to do with them hoping McKenzie could be beasley’s replacement. He’s nowhere near that level. Not even close. It was a bad miscalculation on Beane’s behalf. The really frustrating thing is the lack of usage for Shakir. He Is a bigger guy, he’s fast, way more physical. He’s been in the system for a while now…give him more burn. He’s the unknown, while we all know what we have in McKenzie at this point. 

Agreed on all points except the bolded.  I don’t think that was the case.  I think they thought crowder + Mckenzie would be able to do the things they wanted to do.  Crowder doing work vs the zone and McKenzie doing work vs man.  

Then crowder got hurt in preseason while dirty impressed in his absence and took the job. They had similar targets in 3 of the first 4, with dirty getting the majority vs Miami (who played mostly man while playing in dirtys home town).  
 

Beasley had slowed and they thought crowder was a similar player (and he is).  No one was complaining about slot WR until the season started.  The only thing we cried about was outside WR depth.  Mostly everyone thought Beane replaced Beasley with somewhat competent players.  
 

The Shakir sitch has had me fuming since crowder went out.  

[Airseven]

Beane opted to re-sign McKenzie over Beasley and draft Shakir as a middling rookie. Questionable moves but not as bad as his mishandling of the OL.

[MiltonWaddams]

On a good note, I did appreciate what they were doing with Knox as being the safety valve yesterday. I think he needs to get more opportunities like the ones he saw against Cleveland.