The Red King Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech. Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football? Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is. Challenging a bad spot? Correct spot identified immediately. Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know? You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly. Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown? Did the onside kick go ten yards? Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 The NFL has been to talking to potential vendors for 10,12 years or more. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 You greatly overestimate the accuracy of GPS chips. Also, another solution in search of a problem. 4 2 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Won't work to the accuracy you want. I work with locating systems and you would only get an area the football is in, not exactly down to the inch where it is. Video reviews are still the way to go. 3 1 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red King Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said: You greatly overestimate the accuracy of GPS chips. Also, another solution in search of a problem. Maybe to the first part. But you don't see a problem? "Yes, the ball is in his arm and most likely broke the plain, but it's hard to tell since we do need to see it. Now, let's hold the game up 5-10 mins. while we watch 200 clips to see if we get an angle that tells us for sure." Yeah, certainly not a problem that exists. For those of you that say the tech isn't precise enough, okay, good to know. Thanks for telling me. Was a random thought, suppose it won't work. Ah well. Edited October 13, 2022 by The Red King 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) They've had that system in place in international soccer for several years now. Particularly if a shot hits the crossbar and bounces down very quickly and then out, the question is "Did it cross the goal line or not?" They review that and have accurate enough data to say whether or not it was in or out. Same in tennis, if I'm not mistake. I don't watch tennis. Edited October 13, 2022 by Nextmanup 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanSD Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 This is why I use a trimmer with a guard and not a razor. 1 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Just Jack said: Won't work to the accuracy you want. I work with locating systems and you would only get an area the football is in, not exactly down to the inch where it is. Video reviews are still the way to go. So how do they do it in soccer? Is it a laser type system? Why not employ that at least at the goal line, and then put the chip in the ball. We could forever end debate about "crossing the plane of the goal line". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low Positive Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: They've had that system in place in international soccer for several years now. Particularly if a shot hits the crossbar and bounces down very quickly and then out, the question is "Did it cross the goal line or not?" They review that and have accurate enough data to say whether or not it was in or out. Same in tennis, if I'm not mistake. I don't watch tennis. In tennis, they use cameras on the lines. It's not 100% accurate, but it is more accurate than human line judges which is all it has to be. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Goal-Line Technology is a system that uses either physical cameras or a changing magnetic field to track the ball and determine if it has crossed the goal line. If the ball crosses the line, an encrypted signal is transmitted to the referee, who can then decide whether or not to award a goal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuz9D41TxoA Interesting reading here... https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/how-does-the-goal-line-technology-work.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) It will come in time. As will unitards instead of two piece uni's. It's gonna' be gross. In the meantime try to look at it like you ONLY have to get 10 yards..........so if you are ruled a half a yard short you should have gotten between 1 and 89 more yards so you weren't leaving it to a bunch of part time officials. Same the other way around........you had 10 yards to stop them if you couldn't clearly do the minimum then you are leaving the result to fortune to some extent. Same with plays on the boundary.........if you live on the margins when the field is 360' x 160' then you expose yourself to greater chance of human error/subjectivity. Edited October 13, 2022 by BADOLBILZ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: They've had that system in place in international soccer for several years now. Particularly if a shot hits the crossbar and bounces down very quickly and then out, the question is "Did it cross the goal line or not?" They review that and have accurate enough data to say whether or not it was in or out. Same in tennis, if I'm not mistake. I don't watch tennis. No they haven't. Those are mainly camera based, not GPS. We already have camera review in NFL. Also where do you put the chip in a hollow, spherical ball? Edited October 13, 2022 by 1ManRaid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 So the short answer is coordinated camera systems using triangulation. Can you imagine how accurate spotting the ball after every play could be? Or did that guy make it to the first down marker or not as he was shoed out of bounds. All that crap could be perfectly dialed in....but isn't....b/c.....NFL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: So the short answer is coordinated camera systems using triangulation. Can you imagine how accurate spotting the ball after every play could be? Or did that guy make it to the first down marker or not as he was shoed out of bounds. All that crap could be perfectly dialed in....but isn't....b/c.....NFL. Wouldn't work. It only works in tennis because the cameras have clear sight lines to the spherical ball, not to an egg lump tucked into a gut covered by arms, amongst a swarm of tacklers. Also in tennis they only have to have the system covering a limited area looking at specific lines. An NFL field is massive in comparison and would require much more equipment, distances, and cost. And again, wouldn't work anyways. Edited October 13, 2022 by 1ManRaid 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17islongenough Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Does anyone know how Tennis system works? Whenever they challenge if a ball was in or out they go to a video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, 17islongenough said: Does anyone know how Tennis system works? Whenever they challenge if a ball was in or out they go to a video High speed cameras keyed in on specific limited areas of the court. Absolutely wouldn't work in NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 23 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said: No they haven't. Those are mainly camera based, not GPS. We already have camera review in NFL. Also where do you put the chip in a hollow, spherical ball? You can easily chip the balls, but that's only a very small part of the problem. You'd have to chip every inch of every player as well, to know if any part of their body was down before crossing the goal line, or whether they actually got two feet in bounds (while also maintaining control). It just isn't really feasible with football. Spotting the ball is not that big of an issue. The bigger issue has to do with player's bodies in relation to the field, their possession of the football, etc. Spotting the ball is the easiest part of the equation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, The Red King said: Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech. Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football? Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is. Challenging a bad spot? Correct spot identified immediately. Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know? You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly. Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown? Did the onside kick go ten yards? Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges. How do you account for knowing when a knee or elbow is down though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 The GPS location software in my sailboats chart plotter has shown me being on land while I was motoring on the inter coastal water way, GPS is not one millimeter accurate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfandBills Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 38 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said: This is why I use a trimmer with a guard and not a razor. Do you use the manscape ball deodorant too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
since79 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Don't know how accurate they are, an invisible dog fence idea. The wire is imbedded in the line, it sends a signal when it is crossed. Better yet put the shock collar on the referee. They will get every call right everytime. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanMike Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 NFL needs that human error. You know because Vegas.🤑 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, The Red King said: Maybe to the first part. But you don't see a problem? "Yes, the ball is in his arm and most likely broke the plain, but it's hard to tell since we do need to see it. Now, let's hold the game up 5-10 mins. while we watch 200 clips to see if we get an angle that tells us for sure." Yeah, certainly not a problem that exists. For those of you that say the tech isn't precise enough, okay, good to know. Thanks for telling me. Was a random thought, suppose it won't work. Ah well. Im no engineer. But, what if there were some sort of sensor/target in the ball...with a laser "tracking system " rather than chips in the ball that send a signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Just Jack said: Won't work to the accuracy you want. I work with locating systems and you would only get an area the football is in, not exactly down to the inch where it is. Video reviews are still the way to go. OK, so here's a question. Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football. One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but.... 36 minutes ago, since79 said: Don't know how accurate they are, an invisible dog fence idea. The wire is imbedded in the line, it sends a signal when it is crossed. Better yet put the shock collar on the referee. They will get every call right everytime. I laughed until the dog got worried about me at this. Edited October 13, 2022 by Beck Water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 I've thought the NFL said they already put chips in the balls and still developing the technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Chandler's Hands Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: I've thought the NFL said they already put chips in the balls and still developing the technology. I think they've been trying various chip systems but so far nothing good enough. Part of the complication with chipping the ball has to be the current system of handling balls for the game, right? As I understand it, each team's QB tries out footballs before the game, and chooses the ones he wants. They get marked with the game they were used in, and used up to 3 (?) games. So there would have to be a large number of chipped balls supplied by each team, and a system of testing their function impartially before each game. I can't find it, but back in 2020 the Bills did a series of "Trust the ________ " short Feature Videos on various behind-the-scenes efforts of the equipment guys and trainers. They had one with Nate Breske explaining the proximity tracker systems, one explaining the process of setting up the pads and jerseys before the game (Stefon Diggs and a couple others like their gameday jerseys so tight it takes 3 staff to suit them up), and one showing Josh selecting the balls for the game and explaining a bit about what makes a ball "no" for him. Edited October 13, 2022 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Just paint the ball bright orange. Problem solved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, The Red King said: Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech. Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football? Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is. Challenging a bad spot? Correct spot identified immediately. Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know? You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly. Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown? Did the onside kick go ten yards? Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges. Really think you are missing the issue. 1st as has been stated in the other threads on this topic - you will not get the accuracy you are talking about. The chip will give you an idea, but not anything closer than the current video evidence. Even when you can see the ball - the chip just gives an area - so it would not work for LOS/TD/1st downs. 2nd - even if they begin to narrow down the accuracy - you still need to have proof of the player is he down and where exactly is he down and therefore you would need to sync to the Millisecond the tracking of the chip to the video and that is more difficult and time consuming than the current process and still doesn’t help in all scenarios. 3rd - what if the ball is not going straight ahead - the 2 ends are going across the field as the player dives. Video evidence shows the laces appearing to cross the plain, but the tracking shows it short. Now you have created a mismatch and what would happen if the ball was hidden or you can’t see down. The reality is - the technology is not advanced enough at this point to be a huge help and I doubt until they redo the fields with sensors perfectly spaced that could provide the required accuracy - this is a non functional solution looking for a question. Currently - I believe the balls already have sensors in them - so they can be used for advanced metrics like speed of throw and other AWS metrics that the league uses - it just has to get mirrored to the video to provide the data. 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: So how do they do it in soccer? Is it a laser type system? Why not employ that at least at the goal line, and then put the chip in the ball. We could forever end debate about "crossing the plane of the goal line". It is rarely an issue of did it cross the plain. It is an issue of where was it when the player was down - which means not only video getting synced, but then syncing the sensors down to the millisecond as you review the film. it would still not end the debate - it might change it, but it would not end it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 28 minutes ago, Beck Water said: OK, so here's a question. Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football. One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but.... Number of players. We see it all the time, teams are on the 1 yard line, so they hand off to a running back or QB sneak, and you have a mass of players converging on the ball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 32 minutes ago, Beck Water said: OK, so here's a question. Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football. One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but.... I laughed until the dog got worried about me at this. You would still need 100% visibility of the ball for the system to work. If the systems can not see the ball from all angles - how can it accurately determine the position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: So how do they do it in soccer? Is it a laser type system? Why not employ that at least at the goal line, and then put the chip in the ball. We could forever end debate about "crossing the plane of the goal line". The ball crossing the plane is rarely the issue. The question of when was the runner's knee, or elbow, or butt down and was he touched while that occurred is a major part of the equation. When the field becomes a giant touch screen or something out of Tron we will have the perfect solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Sounds painful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Matt_In_NH said: Sounds painful Yes, but worth every penny if your balls are migratory with the seasons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, Just Jack said: Number of players. We see it all the time, teams are on the 1 yard line, so they hand off to a running back or QB sneak, and you have a mass of players converging on the ball. Well....Gaelic football has 13 or 15 players per side on the field (26 or 30). Australian rules has 18, so 36 I dunno how they use it for those sports, but if they're using it for those sports, they must have sorted that mass problem somehow 5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: The ball crossing the plane is rarely the issue. The question of when was the runner's knee, or elbow, or butt down and was he touched while that occurred is a major part of the equation. Good point that the position of the ball is often not the contentious issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Claude Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Well....Gaelic football has 13 or 15 players per side on the field (26 or 30). Australian rules has 18, so 36 I dunno how they use it for those sports, but if they're using it for those sports, they must have sorted that mass problem somehow Good point that the position of the ball is often not the contentious issue. In Gaelic football it is only used to decide if a point is scored, that is if a ball crosses above the crossbar and between the goalposts. It would be similar to deciding whether a field goal is good or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: It will come in time. As will unitards instead of two piece uni's. It's gonna' be gross. At that point I may switch allegiance to the Giants 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 My mind immediately went to my favorite place: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 hours ago, The Red King said: Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech. Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football? Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is. Challenging a bad spot? Correct spot identified immediately. Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know? You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly. Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown? Did the onside kick go ten yards? Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges. This has always been one of my pet peeves. They bring the chains out and measure within one chain link of the chain as to whether a 1st down or not. But when they first set the down markers to start with, who's to say they were exactly lined up within one chain link. Likely in many cases they may be going 9.4 yards for a 1st down, another time it's 10.3 yards! But as others have stated, I doubt you'd get a GPS system accurate within one inch. Better thing may be some type of laser system on both sides of the field and a target of some sorts on the surface of the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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