What Daboll did in the final seconds of the Giants game (relates to 13 seconds)

[Einstein]

The Daboll lead Giants had a 1 point lead and needed to stop Tennessee from getting into field goal range.

 

With 0:45 seconds left, Daboll had a clear strategy. Just hold their wide receivers. They were holding them every play and got called for it twice on the final drive. Clear and blatant and purposeful holding.

I imagine that Daboll figured: “So what if we get a penalty?” Defensive holding is only 5 yards and the opponents wastes 5-10 seconds off the clock each play that you’re holding them. 

 

It worked really well - at least until a CB got turned around and gave up a long pass. But the technique clearly worked for wasting clock. 

 

I have to wonder whether this technique was something discussed by the Bills coaches in the meetings after the 13 second ending and Daboll brought it with him to the Giants. Blatantly holding Kelce, Hill, etc in those 13 seconds likely would have burned enough clock to win the game.

 

 

 

[Bangarang]

I’ve seen the Ravens use this strategy before years ago.

[Scott7975]

I and others brought that up on gameday that the Bills should have done that.  However there is this that changed in 2017

 

"

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap."

 

The Bills should have definitely did it on the first play.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Scott7975

[MJS]

Yes, the best thing would have been to just wrap up every player you can and not let them go anywhere. Two plays of doing that and the game would have been essentially over.

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I’ve seen the Ravens use this strategy before years ago.

 

Its smart.

[Big Blitz]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

I and others brought that up on gameday that the Bills should have done that.  However there is this that changed in 2017

 

"

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap."

 

 

Yea I remember this coming up in the days after the game.   

 

The time to do it was that first play the Chiefs ran.  Then only rush 2 guys on the 2nd play.  Should have only rushed 2 both plays.  

 

Whatever.  We're moving on.  

 

Burn it all. 

[Draconator]

Are we still talking about 13 seconds? It's a new season for Christ sakes! Let it die. 

[Motorin']

 

 

 

 

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I and others brought that up on gameday that the Bills should have done that.  However there is this that changed in 2017

 

"

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap."

 

The Bills should have definitely did it on the first play.

Did not know about that rule. It says the same down, so you wouldn't technically be able to do that for even one play, I guess.

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I and others brought that up on gameday that the Bills should have done that.  However there is this that changed in 2017

 

"

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap."

 

The Bills should have definitely did it on the first play.

 

Have you ever seen it called? I haven’t.

 

And even if it was, the rule states “on the same down”.

 

So the Bills could have held the Chiefs WR’s for 5-7 seconds on first down and then not again. That would have taken half the clock away right off the bat. The equivalent of a squib kick of time taken off.

 

11 minutes ago, Draconator said:

Are we still talking about 13 seconds? It's a new season for Christ sakes! Let it die. 

 

No, we’re talking football strategy. It matters this year and all years.

 

.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Einstein

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

Did not know about that rule. It says the same down, so you wouldn't technically be able to do that for even one play, I guess.

 

Yeah I didnt either until that day haha

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I’ve seen the Ravens use this strategy before years ago.

Multiple players holding

 

Equals 15 yards with no time ran off the clock … It’s a slippery slope to just tell your players to grab wide receivers

 

Play sound Defense is the better answer

Edited September 12, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Have you ever seen it called? I haven’t.

 

And even if it was, the rule states “on the same down”.

 

So the Bills could have held the Chiefs WR’s for 5-7 seconds on first down and then not again. That would have taken half the clock away right off the bat. The equivalent of a squib kick of time taken off.

 

No, we’re talking football strategy. It matters this year and all years.

 

Thats why I said the Bills should have done it at least on first play

[Draconator]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

No, we’re talking football strategy. It matters this year and all years.

But you're reflecting on the past which never results in anything positive. And we can't predict the future. All we can focus on is the present. 

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

Did not know about that rule. It says the same down, so you wouldn't technically be able to do that for even one play, I guess.

 

The rule is that you can’t commit MULTIPLE fouls on the SAME down.

 

So you CAN have:

 

1st down: Holding

1st down again: Normal Play

2nd down: Holding

Just now, Draconator said:

But you're reflecting on the past which never results in anything positive. And we can't predict the future. All we can focus on is the present. 

 

So you want us to talk football theory without any examples of situations it could possibly help or hinder in?

We need to make up scenarios that never happened to talk out game ideas and theories?

 

Ridiculousness in my opinion. Personally I would suggest not going into a thread and posting in it if you don’t like the topic.

[Draconator]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The rule is that you can’t commit MULTIPLE fouls on the SAME down.

 

So you CAN have:

 

1st down: Holding

1st down again: Normal Play

2nd down: Holding

 

So you want us to talk football theory without any examples of situations it could possibly help or hinder in?

We need to make up scenarios that never happened to talk out game ideas and theories?

 

Ridiculousness in my opinion. Personally I would suggest not going into a thread and posting in it if you don’t like the topic.

But you for the majority post on the negative side of things. It's a reflection of you. Not of me. 

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Draconator said:

But you for the majority post on the negative side of things. It's a reflection of you. Not of me. 

 

huh? You thinking i’m a pessimist is clouding your judgment on a post about football game theory?

 

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

huh? You thinking i’m a pessimist is clouding your judgment on a post about football game theory?

 

Your body of work is much, much more than just this post.

[Beck Water]

31 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I and others brought that up on gameday that the Bills should have done that.  However there is this that changed in 2017

 

"

ARTICLE 3. INTENTIONAL FOULS TO MANIPULATE GAME CLOCK

A team may not commit multiple fouls during the same down in an attempt to manipulate the game clock.

Penalty: For multiple fouls to run off time from the game clock: Loss of 15 yards, and the game clock will be reset to where it was at the snap. After the penalty is enforced, the game clock will start on the next snap."

 

The Bills should have definitely did it on the first play.

 

Of course, if the refs consider your team is committing DPI and not DH, Congratulations, you just gifted the opponent some Big Yards.

 

The thing is, the G-men really didn't stop the Titans with the DH stuff.  They marched right down the field from the Tenn 30 to the Giants 29 yd line, which is a perfectly makeable FG distance.  They did it in 1:02 leaving :04 for the kick.  Just the Titans bad luck/execution that they didn't make the FG and win.

 

And, the two DH penalties that were called GIFTED THE TITANS 1st downs on two successive 3rd and 4's.  So they basically had the same result (and took the same time) as some of their short passes.

 

If it was deliberate and not just mistakes or habitual DB grabbiness that the refs decided to call to keep the end of the game exciting ....I'm not seeing why gifting your opponent 2 first downs that take him towards, then across, midfield, would be accounted a Genius Coaching Strategy?  Don't get me wrong, I like Daboll, but if this is deliberate, Why?

[Billsguy]

All the Titans had to do was make a fairly routine FG at the end to win the game. The Giants should have lost. Daboll is definitely not a genius.

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

The Daboll lead Giants had a 1 point lead and needed to stop Tennessee from getting into field goal range.

 

With 0:45 seconds left, Daboll had a clear strategy. Just hold their wide receivers. They were holding them every play and got called for it twice on the final drive. Clear and blatant and purposeful holding.

I imagine that Daboll figured: “So what if we get a penalty?” Defensive holding is only 5 yards and the opponents wastes 5-10 seconds off the clock each play that you’re holding them. 

 

It worked really well - at least until a CB got turned around and gave up a long pass. But the technique clearly worked for wasting clock. 

 

I have to wonder whether this technique was something discussed by the Bills coaches in the meetings after the 13 second ending and Daboll brought it with him to the Giants. Blatantly holding Kelce, Hill, etc in those 13 seconds likely would have burned enough clock to win the game.

 

 

 

 

Ok Einstein - yet the titans did move to well with FG range at a closer range than the Bills KC game.  The difference was the kicker.

 

Also the Giants held twice on the drive, but allowed 4 additional completions - several that went out of bounds to stop the clock - so if the strategy was to hold and prevent plays they did a bad job.

 

Also both times they held was on 3rd down giving automatic 1st downs rather than 4th downs.

 

Maybe it was the plan, but boy they allowed them to move the ball down the field with completions rather easily if that was the plan.

 

That plan would of made sense for Buffalo - assuming they did not get called for intentional fouls if it was blatantly done.  You also have to hope they don’t call DPI as that is a spot foul in the NFL for that reason.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Daboll was brilliant!  Go NY or maybe new jersey.  just win

Edited September 12, 2022 by redtail hawk

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

The rule is that you can’t commit MULTIPLE fouls on the SAME down.

 

So you CAN have:

 

1st down: Holding

1st down again: Normal Play

2nd down: Holding

 

So you want us to talk football theory without any examples of situations it could possibly help or hinder in?

We need to make up scenarios that never happened to talk out game ideas and theories?

 

Ridiculousness in my opinion. Personally I would suggest not going into a thread and posting in it if you don’t like the topic.

Einstein - 

 

The rule is designed so that if a team intentionally commits multiple fouls on the same down - it essentially nullifies the down and gives them 15 yards.

 

This means on 1st down - if the Bills had intentionally held both Kelce and Hill to prevent a completion (multiple fouls intentionally on the same down).  The Refs could award a 15 yard penalty and reset the game clock to :13 seconds.

 

So if the Bills had intentionally tackled Hill and Kelce (or held them near the LOS right off the snap and prevented them from their route) on the first play and the NFL chose to use this - which would depend on how blatant it was - it would have gone to 1st and 10 on the KC 40 with :13 seconds left.

 

The bolded does not mean anything.  It is on 1 specific play - if the defense has multiple fouls deemed intentional to manipulate the clock - ie allow the time to run off by preventing the WRs from getting out to a route - the NFL can enforce this.  I believe this was added due to that exact scenario happening several years ago.

 

Just like the NFL addressed the NE manipulation of the clock on punts.  They look for these and address them when possible.

[bmur66]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Multiple players holding

 

Equals 15 yards with no time ran off the clock … It’s a slippery slope to just tell your players to grab wide receivers

 

Play sound Defense is the better answer

Not on 9-11 in NY for the win!

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

6 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

 

 

 

Gettleman does not approve.  He's going out to yell at clouds now.

[Bangarang]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Multiple players holding

 

Equals 15 yards with no time ran off the clock … It’s a slippery slope to just tell your players to grab wide receivers

 

Play sound Defense is the better answer

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

5 hours ago, Billsguy said:

All the Titans had to do was make a fairly routine FG at the end to win the game. The Giants should have lost. Daboll is definitely not a genius.

Can we all admit the Bills' coaches were no geniuses the last 13 second vs. KC last year? 

[Niagara Dude]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

The Daboll lead Giants had a 1 point lead and needed to stop Tennessee from getting into field goal range.

 

With 0:45 seconds left, Daboll had a clear strategy. Just hold their wide receivers. They were holding them every play and got called for it twice on the final drive. Clear and blatant and purposeful holding.

I imagine that Daboll figured: “So what if we get a penalty?” Defensive holding is only 5 yards and the opponents wastes 5-10 seconds off the clock each play that you’re holding them. 

 

It worked really well - at least until a CB got turned around and gave up a long pass. But the technique clearly worked for wasting clock. 

 

I have to wonder whether this technique was something discussed by the Bills coaches in the meetings after the 13 second ending and Daboll brought it with him to the Giants. Blatantly holding Kelce, Hill, etc in those 13 seconds likely would have burned enough clock to win the game.

 

 

 

Based on playing at home the following week and how we just whipped the Rams ,  not holding with only 13 secs may have cost the Bills their first title. You rush 3 with a spy and just tackle receivers at the line chewing up 5-6 secs. You can only do this on one play during a series. We gave up an easy 20 yards to Hill with DB's playing so far off the line and then repeated stupid with Kelce. Either way I think we can all agree the Bills coaches made a bunch of poor choices to end that game and it cost us. I don't buy or accept the kicker did not know about squib kick,  Sean needs to go on the field himself and tell him what he wants. I am pretty sure they have new process in place for late game situations with a lead.

 

 

I was more upset seeing how elite Saquon Barkley looked and thinking how most fans in Buffalo did not want him and some were naive enough to believe anyone currently on our team is near as good. The dude is big and explosive,  something this team does not have at this time

Edited September 12, 2022 by Niagara Dude

[eball]

Happy for Dabes but the Giants still should have lost.  Oilers’ FG kicker missed an easy one.

[Real McClappy]

DA Balls on this man. 

[Niagara Dude]

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Einstein - 

 

The rule is designed so that if a team intentionally commits multiple fouls on the same down - it essentially nullifies the down and gives them 15 yards.

 

This means on 1st down - if the Bills had intentionally held both Kelce and Hill to prevent a completion (multiple fouls intentionally on the same down).  The Refs could award a 15 yard penalty and reset the game clock to :13 seconds.

 

So if the Bills had intentionally tackled Hill and Kelce (or held them near the LOS right off the snap and prevented them from their route) on the first play and the NFL chose to use this - which would depend on how blatant it was - it would have gone to 1st and 10 on the KC 40 with :13 seconds left.

 

The bolded does not mean anything.  It is on 1 specific play - if the defense has multiple fouls deemed intentional to manipulate the clock - ie allow the time to run off by preventing the WRs from getting out to a route - the NFL can enforce this.  I believe this was added due to that exact scenario happening several years ago.

 

Just like the NFL addressed the NE manipulation of the clock on punts.  They look for these and address them when possible.

You can only call one penalty won each play,  so they could have done this on first down but not second down.

[BillsFanSD]

5 hours ago, Billsguy said:

All the Titans had to do was make a fairly routine FG at the end to win the game. The Giants should have lost. Daboll is definitely not a genius.

Well, the Titans are a significantly better team on paper than the Giants.  If they play that game a million times, the Giants would lose a majority of the time -- probably like 70% or so.  (I don't recall what the line was).  

 

When you have the inferior team, variance is your friend.  That's why going for two at the end was such a good decision.  Their odds of pulling off an improbable upset are quite a bit better if you roll the dice on one play from two yards out than if you play for overtime.

 

As for the Titans missing a FG, Daboll doesn't play defense.  He made a call that put his team in the best position possible to win the game.  That's a good thing for coaches to do.

[Yockopondowsk]

The Giants game yesterday, and Dabol’s tactic is very pertinent. It is NFL current event stuff. I was not aware of the rule either; it seems the tactic can be used, but not overtly if possible.  Btw what’s with the snarky b@$+@Rds on this site?  

[Matt_In_NH]

Not only did the Bills not make the optimal calls but they made the complete wrong decisions after they scored with 13 seconds left.  Squib, playing a prevent defending the sidelines....just wrong.   Just lining up and playing it more like a typical drive would have been suboptimal but better than what they did.   Basically they said, here we will let you try a 48 yard FG to tie.   Not sure I am over it but I have moved on.  Dabol probably learned from it as well as McDermott.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

The Daboll lead Giants had a 1 point lead and needed to stop Tennessee from getting into field goal range.

 

With 0:45 seconds left, Daboll had a clear strategy. Just hold their wide receivers. They were holding them every play and got called for it twice on the final drive. Clear and blatant and purposeful holding.

I imagine that Daboll figured: “So what if we get a penalty?” Defensive holding is only 5 yards and the opponents wastes 5-10 seconds off the clock each play that you’re holding them. 

 

It worked really well - at least until a CB got turned around and gave up a long pass. But the technique clearly worked for wasting clock. 

 

I have to wonder whether this technique was something discussed by the Bills coaches in the meetings after the 13 second ending and Daboll brought it with him to the Giants. Blatantly holding Kelce, Hill, etc in those 13 seconds likely would have burned enough clock to win the game.

 

 

 

 

This whole point is moot if the Titans just made a 47 yard FG in good weather.  It's not like this strategy put the Titans in like a 55+ yard FG, where it's a difficult shot.

 

47 yarders are successful around 72% of the time.  

[BreezeMafia]

Take care of business in 11 '21 at Jacksonville and we dont worry about 13 seconds.

[SoCal Deek]

I was never a big Daboll fan but I can’t understand the apparent ‘hate’ on here for him. He had NOTHING to do with the Bills strategy against the Chiefs last year. I think it’s great that the Giants won. Good for them. (If Patriots fans hated every former coach that’s now with another team they wouldn’t get any sleep whatsoever.) 

[FLFan]

8 hours ago, Draconator said:

Are we still talking about 13 seconds? It's a new season for Christ sakes! Let it die. 

Are you new around here?  People will never let it die. If the Bills win the SB some people will B word that it should have been two in a row. 

[Big Turk]

9 hours ago, MJS said:

Yes, the best thing would have been to just wrap up every player you can and not let them go anywhere. Two plays of doing that and the game would have been essentially over.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if McDermott knew this but chose not to do it.  He often talks about not only winning, but winning the right way. McD seems to have a lot of respect for the game and his opponents, I get the sense he would believe if he can't line up and play football and win that way then they don't deserve to win.

 

I think he would probably have been sick to his stomach if he did it and had to resort to winning that way...especially in front of his good friend and mentor Andy Reid.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Big Turk

[Einstein]

53 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

This whole point is moot if the Titans just made a 47 yard FG in good weather.  It's not like this strategy put the Titans in like a 55+ yard FG, where it's a difficult shot.

 

47 yarders are successful around 72% of the time.  

 

Sure. But the point is that the strategy burned block. They just had way more clock to burn than we did and they got beat once.