Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[JaCrispy]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What I see is people jumping to conclusions on both sides of the issue. 

 

Pat McAfee (surprise!) did a show which basically took everything the lawsuit alleges as fact.

 

Others, like you, are assuming it "completely unravelled" there's nothing there.

 

I believe that the lawyers wouldn't have filed the case if there weren't more substance to it than has been revealed so far, so I think "wait and see what the evidence actually is before forming a conclusion" is the right call.  Belichick's texts alone are hearsay, but who he spoke to on the Giants and Bills, and what he heard, still matter. 

 

Overall, I stand by what I said upthread: it reads to me like the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this any more" lawsuit, not something that is carefully researched and constructed to hold up well in court.

Perfectly said and exactly how I feel...

 

I see too many people getting bogged down in the “weeds” of ‘who said what, and when’...

 

All of that is a moot point imo...just because teams are forced to interview certain people, it doesn’t mean that they HAVE to feel a certain way about them, one way or the other...Lol...it’s all just getting a bit ridiculous to me...

 

I mean, what are we really talking about here? We either believe that owners have the right to feel how they wanna feel about potential hires, or we believe that owners should be tyrannically forced, by the league (or State) to hire people, simply because of their skin color, just to meet to meet some quota...and that opens up a whole other can of worms...

 

Its like I’ve always said- the situation with black QBs in the 50s and 60s was similar to this coaching “issue”...but you didn’t need a Rooney Rule to get more black QBs into the league...it just happened organically, because their talent was undeniable, and teams realized that if they wanted to win, then certain biases needed to be put to the side...Now, POC make up some of the best QBs in the league- and rules were never put in place to make it so...👍

[Warcodered]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  And then you get to things like the rumor the Texans will hire Josh McCown, a former QB with like NO coaching experience at any level: Really?  You can't find a better choice with more experience at ANY level?  He would be like the poster-boy opposed to the concept that owners want to win at all costs and hire the best coaching talent they can get.

 

Or the hiring of re-tread coaches like Doug Pederson - and he's far from the most egregious example, as he did win a Superbowl with Nick Foles and got a single amazing year out of Carson Wentz.  After which his OC was hired by the Colts as HC, his QB coach was hired by the Vikings, the team exited the playoffs early, and Wentz fell apart and now seems irreparably broken, which casts some doubt (in my mind anyway) as to who was most responsible for that, but I digress

 

The point is, by the time NFL teams hire relatives of former coaches, retread coaches, offensive coordinators of current playoff teams, and the occasional Whisky Tango Foxtrot? hire like McCown 1) it's pretty hard to argue that some kind of process based on coaching experience and results is going down 2) there aren't a lot of openings left to give promising, well-qualified coordinators a shot.

 

 

Firing Culley and Hiring McCown would be like a giant Neon sign for people making the case of discriminatory hiring practices.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Warcodered said:

Firing Culley and Hiring McCown would be like a giant Neon sign for people making the case of discriminatory hiring practices.

Well, it could easily be taken for that, but I think it might just as easily be proof that the Texans are bat-guano crazy and stupid. Though, really, the NFL has got to know what a bad look that would be.

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a bad-faith argument. Instead of addressing a legitimate concern, you try to paint the concerned parties as not being concerned enough. Why do you think minorities have a more difficult time getting hired as head coaches? No one in this thread seems to disagree with that plain statistical fact. A lot of people are apparently uncomfortable asking why that fact is.

While there does need to be changes made and the person you quoted...to me at least is being a bit overzealous...there should be changes for all minorities IMO.

 

We have 1 Latino and 1 Lebanese Head Coach. However when the debate comes up it's made into a "black/white" issue and not a "white/minority" issue as IMO it should be. 1 black HC is often mentioned...3 total minority HC is often forgotten.

 

3 out of 32 is still poor and there needs to be improvement. But if the issue is truly about diversity it needs to be diversity for all and not just 1 group of minorities.

 

https://nypost.com/2021/05/22/eugene-chung-nfl-team-said-im-not-right-minority-in-interview/

[JaCrispy]

6 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Firing Culley and Hiring McCown would be like a giant Neon sign for people making the case of discriminatory hiring practices.

Well, in today’s modern world, society is taught to find racism in everything- even where it might not exist...

[harryS]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Then what is the reason for white people being overrepresented in coaching hires? That's the question. I don't think you or anyone else in this thread believes that white people are overrepresented in the coaching ranks because they inherently have more merit as coaches. So there must be some other reason. White players are not given less of a chance than black players, we all know that; but on a statistical basis black coaches appear to be given less of a chance than white coaches.

 

haha, this post contains at least two bad assumptions, maybe three

[HappyDays]

Just now, harryS said:

 

haha, this post contains at least two bad assumptions, maybe three

 

Name them.

[Chaos]

57 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Then what is the reason for white people being overrepresented in coaching hires? That's the question. I don't think you or anyone else in this thread believes that white people are overrepresented in the coaching ranks because they inherently have more merit as coaches. So there must be some other reason. White players are not given less of a chance than black players, we all know that; but on a statistical basis black coaches appear to be given less of a chance than white coaches.

1) I don't believe white people are overrepresented in coaching vs the general population. 2)Each decision on a player or coach is made about the INDIVIDUAL who gives the team the best chance to win in that role.  So, if white people are overrepresented as coaches, it is simply the collective result by the EXACT SAME DECISION MAKERS who assessed the individual players and massively underrepresented white people.  

[TheFunPolice]

Hue Jackson's big reveal was a giant flop.

 

We'll, they didn't pay me to lose but the roster was bad and they kept me in for year 3 after I only won 1 game in 2 years...

 

Then he got fired in year 3 and Gregg win a bunch of games as interim coach with that same roster.

 

If anything Hue Jackson is an example of a team sticking with a coach too long. 

 

Now, there are legitimate concerns as it relates to the number of minority HC in the NFL.

 

But this entire lawsuit is making a mockery of the issue in my opinion because the claims sound like unprofessional heresay.

 

But if you'll notice people are still saying we need to investigate the Browns thing even after Hue Jackson himself said it never happened that way. 

 

IMO that's the goal here. Public perception is baked in. Daboll is illegitimate. Elway staggered into Flores interview hungover, and Ross tried to pay him to tank games. And Hue was incentivized to lose, even though he now admits that's not really what happened.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[QLBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a bad-faith argument. Instead of addressing a legitimate concern, you try to paint the concerned parties as not being concerned enough. Why do you think minorities have a more difficult time getting hired as head coaches? No one in this thread seems to disagree with that plain statistical fact. A lot of people are apparently uncomfortable asking why that fact is.

Statistical fact. Since the Rooney Rule 21% of NFL head coaches hired have been hired. Currently 6 GM’s are black. Just a couple years ago the league had 8 black head coaches. 
It’s about more black candidates filling the lower level jobs that filter more up to the OC and DC jobs. The why is :

1. Are you qualified 

2. Are you connected; is someone in hiring decision very familiar with your work. Or do they trust a reference who believes in your work. 
 

#2 is the challenge in any hiring scenario. Corporate enterprise works the same way. 
 

The solve is having more minorities in the potential candidate funnel. That’s the solution. Leftwich wants Wilson as his GM who happens to be black. They have worked together, believe in each other, and have trust. Just like JS and DB. Good for all four of them. Not racism just human nature. 

34 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, it could easily be taken for that, but I think it might just as easily be proof that the Texans are bat-guano crazy and stupid. Though, really, the NFL has got to know what a bad look that would be.

Agree what the heck are the Texans doing considering McCown? Culley got bad deal other than a substantial $ buyout. Thought he did a good job considering.. and the rookie qb showed great improvement. 

[HappyDays]

32 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I don't believe white people are overrepresented in coaching vs the general population

 

Non-hispanic whites are 62.8% of the general population, but 90% of the head coaching population. That obvious discrepancy is before factoring in the fact that NFL coaches overwhelmingly begin as players and we all know the demographics of players. I mean this isn't even a point worth debating. It's a plain fact that minority coaches are underrepresented.

 

32 minutes ago, Chaos said:

So, if white people are overrepresented as coaches, it is simply the collective result by the EXACT SAME DECISION MAKERS who assessed the individual players and massively underrepresented white people.  

 

It is not the case that the same decision makers pick players and coaches. Nor is it the same process. There is nothing similar about athletic scouting and management hiring. There is no NFL combine for coaches. There is no set list of coaching traits that NFL owners are basing their decisions on. Coaching hires are as much about how comfortable the owner of the team is with the interviewee as they are about any kind of objective standard. It is not at all a one-to-one comparison and I'm kind of sick of people using player demographics as some kind of fall back excuse. If anything those demographics are a point in favor of my argument, since overrepresentation of minorities in players should theoretically lead to the same ratio in coaches. The fact that there is instead a huge overrepresentation on the other end of the spectrum is disturbing.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by HappyDays

[Midwest1981]

I think that the NFL's problem with the paucity of black NFL head coaches isn't just unconscious bias as it pertains to hiring them, it's how so very few of them are in position to be hired in the first place.  Because the NFL is hiring offensive coordinators and there aren't many black OC's to begin with.  Currently there are just four:  Marcus Brady/Colts, Eric Bieniemy/Chiefs, Byron Leftwich/Bucs, & Mike McDaniel/49ers.

 

But only one of those four- Leftwich- actually calls plays.

 

In 2017, there were 6 new head coaches.  4/6 were on the offensive side of the ball.

In 2018, 4/7 on offense.

In 2019, 6/8 on offense.

In 2020, 4/5 on offense.

In 2021, 5/7 on offense.

So far this year, of the 6 openings filled, 5 are on offense.

 

It makes sense that the NFL where "Defenses wins championships" is such a boomer adage would specifically seek to hire offensive-minded and oriented candidates.

 

But if concurrently want diversity to happen, you have to create more black OC's (or even QB coaches).  I mean, there are some but based on the low #'s is it any surprise that we end up with final #'s such as these?

 

It should be noted that Mike McDaniel is prohibitively the favorite for the Dolphins' job.  Or at least was until these allegations were levied against Ross- not sure if that changes anything, though McDaniel is purportedly scheduled to have a second interview tomorrow.

 

And Leftwich allegedly could've had the Jags' job if he was willing to work with Trent Baalke.  But I don't blame him for making Baalke's dismissal a precondition of his hiring.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Midwest1981

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Jim Bob said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/04/arbitration-clause-could-quickly-derail-the-brian-flores-lawsuit/

 

This would be an interesting plot twist.

 

One thing they did say with regards to the Giants job was that the Giants defense that they didn't hire Flores because of Schoen's prior working relationship with Daboll and not because of Flores being a minority would be a strong argument.

 

On issues like this, Florio is worth listening to because, as he puts it, he's a "recovering litigator" who actually practiced employment law for a couple decades, eventually representing both sides (employer and employee).  This is 100% his lane, and he knows his ***** when he's talking about stuff like arbitration clauses

 

But, one needs to learn to separate out when he diverges into opinion, and IMHO there's a disappointing amount of that here.  They also don't do a good job separating out the parts of the lawsuit which have a good chance of being arbitrated (anything to do with the Dolphins when Flores was under contract there) vs. parts which may be unlikely to be arbitrated (Flores was not under contract to the NFL or an NFL club when he interviewed for the Giants job)

 

I listened to the whole thing, and I did not hear him say or imply that Schoen's prior working relationship with Daboll would be a "strong argument" .  If you can point me at where in the somewhat long interview you heard that, I'd be obliged.

 

What I heard, was Florio saying he had a bull#### filter, and implying that the Giants statement "we would never hire a HC based on a 20 minute phone interview" hit his bull#### detector.  He said if they did make a hiring decision, they made it based on Schoen's prior relationship with Daboll, not on a 20 minute phone interview, and that Schoen walked in as GM with a list of names he wanted to hire as HC and it would be interesting to know who was on it and in what order.

 

This is where I personally think Florio gets some stuff wrong.  There was an article about the Vikes coaching search in the Athletic (it's linked in that thread) where they said all of the GM candidates were asked "if you get the job, who would you want to look at for HC?"  I would bet that's a very common and standard GM interview question.  I think Mara and Tisch added Daboll and Frazier to their list at the point where they interviewed Schoen and considered him a strong candidate (that's when their phone interviews with Daboll and Frazier were set up).  Why wouldn't you pick the brains of the people you interview and harvest their learnings on potential coaches?

 

Florio implies that when Schoen walked in the door as the new hired GM, he had a list with Daboll's name at the top and that was that.  Given what's been out there about Mara and Tisch, they are NOT the guys to hand 100% of the decision making authority over to their new hired GM, so I find that implausible.  Even if Schoen has something in his contract that gives him the final say on the HC hire, if he's smart (and all signs point to "smart"), he would want Mara and Tisch to buy in.   Safe bet that Mara and Tisch wanted to meet with Daboll for an in person interview and also, yes, talk to people he's worked with in NE and in Buffalo, before a hiring decision was made.  Schoen should want that too, even if Schoen has something in his contract that gives him the final vote.  If Daboll stumbles out of the gate (he may), Schoen doesn't want to feel his seat getting warm.  It's in his interest for Mara and Tisch to buy in to the hire and accept that a new HC may stumble.

 

So no, "we would never hire a HC based on a 20 minute phone call" doesn't twinge my bull#### filter.  It's true that wouldn't be Schoen's hiring basis, but it would be Mara and Tisch's hiring basis, and I'm pretty damned sure they still have a lot of influence.

 

Florio implies the information about Daboll being hired may have come during an "information seeking" phone call between Mara and Belichick - seems likely, but unless Florio has inside gouge (unlikely) it's speculation.  "Why wasn't Schoen on the call?".  In hiring processes I've been involved in, the idea is the reference will speak more frankly talking 1:1 with the person they know.  So Mara calling Belichick solo doesn't seem odd to me.  And Mara could very well have signed off with "thank you for that, Bill, sounds like he might be our guy!"  Which commits him to nothing, and does not constitute a hiring decision.

 

They play a Flores clip where he talks about "back channels". Flores was hired from being a LB coach with NE, to being HC of the Dolphins, without coordinator experience - an unusual step.  Does Flores think that happened without "back channel communication" (aka, a personal recommendation) from Belichick influencing the hire in Miami?  Give.  Me. a Break.  You can't benefit from part of the hiring process in one hiring cycle ("a recommendation") when it works in your favor, and then assert "back channel" conversations (aka recommendations) should stop when you think it may have worked against you. 

 

In any event, why would Belichick's word  about the TE coach in 2016 be considered to outweigh National Championship coach Saban about his OC from 2017, or recommendations from the Buffalo FO and HC Daboll has worked with for 4 years as OC?  It's not logical IMO.  Also, Belichick is said to have pushed for Mara and Tisch to hire Joe Judge ahead of Josh McDaniel in 2020 - how did that work out?  Wouldn't you think that down-rates Belichick's influence with the Giants?

 

The most interesting part of the clip starts about 9:30 (back up a bit for the background).  Peter King calls Florio out on making assumptions and says that even if Schoen came in with the intention to hire Daboll, it seems likely that Mara and Tisch said "look, if we hire you, you're going through a coaching search".

 

At 10:20-ish, King and Florio go back and forth "who would you rather have?" with legitimate arguments pro and con Daboll and Flores, which highlights that this is definitely not a case where a less-qualified coach got hired over a more-qualified coach, but one where two coaches have different strengths and question marks about them, and it becomes a question of which qualities are most important to the hiring committee.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/1/2022 at 3:04 PM, Buffalo619 said:

Rooney rule needs to go. Hire on talent and experience. Leave race out of it. 

 

I don't think the Rooney rule is a good thing in case that isn't clear

 

When one looks at an NFL where failed retread coaches and Josh McCown are being offered coaching positions on a regular basis while highly-regarded and experienced coordinators and coaches are passed over, it also seems clear that factors beyond talent and experience are going into coach and coordinator hiring decisions.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, QLBillsFan said:

Statistical fact. Since the Rooney Rule 21% of NFL head coaches hired have been hired. Currently 6 GM’s are black. Just a couple years ago the league had 8 black head coaches. 

 

I think you've cited this statistic several times.  Can you point us to a source for it?  Because I'm not sure it's correct.  Thanks!

 

One contention is that the reason there are no longer 8 black coaches is that black coaches are given a "shorter leash" and less time than white coaches with comparable records (Joseph vs Florio) and that "retread" white coaches are rehired and given 2nd chances more often than former black head coaches.  So the fact that there were, and now there aren't, may be part of a picture of disparate treatment.

 

1 hour ago, QLBillsFan said:

It’s about more black candidates filling the lower level jobs that filter more up to the OC and DC jobs. The why is :

1. Are you qualified 

2. Are you connected; is someone in hiring decision very familiar with your work. Or do they trust a reference who believes in your work. 
 

#2 is the challenge in any hiring scenario. Corporate enterprise works the same way. 
 

The solve is having more minorities in the potential candidate funnel. That’s the solution. Leftwich wants Wilson as his GM who happens to be black. They have worked together, believe in each other, and have trust. Just like JS and DB. Good for all four of them. Not racism just human nature. 

Agree what the heck are the Texans doing considering McCown? Culley got bad deal other than a substantial $ buyout. Thought he did a good job considering.. and the rookie qb showed great improvement. 

 

I agree with all of this.   In particular, as someone else pointed out, the trend seems to be to hire offensive coordinators as head coaches, and there are not many black offensive coordinators and fewer who call plays.  And as you point out, the one who does (Leftwich) seems to feel confident enough that he can sit back and dictate his terms.

 

Culley absolutely got hosed IMO.  He did a very good job developing Davis Mills and leading a terrible team to 4 wins.  Firing him then considering McCown is a joke.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, benderbender said:

Why is there no regard for other minorities? Women? Age, sexuality, disability, and veterans? Shouldn’t there be a quota for them as well? 

 

This is at least framed as a legitimate question and doesn't include dufus crap like "albanian dwarves", so it deserves an attempt at an answer instead of being kicked to the curb.

 

I'm not a lawyer, just a refugee from HR presentations on equity in hiring practices, so rate this accordingly.

 

Equity in hiring does not mean you have a quota from every "protected class" in the general population.  It means equity from the qualified candidate pool.  For example, if you're trying to hire electrical engineers, you aren't looking at the general population, you're looking at the candidate pool of properly qualified electrical engineers.  If there are no female electrical engineers applying for your job, you are not required to hire a woman who lacks relevant education and experience.  If there's a transsexual electrical engineer or a veteran electrical engineer who isn't being hired for jobs for which they appear qualified, expect questions.  If there aren't, you aren't required to go out and find an unqualified member of that protected class and hire them.

 

There are now a few low-level female assistants in the NFL, but no women with the coaching background (position coaches, coordinators) and experience (coaching or playing the game) that are generally considered precursors to having enough knowledge to be hired.  If and when there are, then that question may be considered.

 

In contrast, the majority of players in the NFL are black or other minorities, and one source I found says that 40% of assistant coaches are black.  So clearly there is a statistical disproportion relative to the overall candidate pool, in the highest ranks of coaches with only 3% black head coaches at present. 

 

That's why the issue arises with respect to black coaches, but not with regard to women, sexuality, disability, and veterans.

 

With regard to age, when both young coaches are hired and elderly coaches continue to coach or are re-hired, that doesn't seem to be an issue for the NFL.

[Bobby Hooks]

The problem I’m seeing with all of this is how will this help? Teams, owners, gms, that don’t seem to have these biases are still going to hire who they deem appropriate. Look at the Bills, they have Frazier (so you would assume they’re not hiring based on prejudices, etc) but they hired who they felt gave them the best chance to win, as it should be. 
 

The owners, etc. that this is meant to reach, I would think would only make them dig in even deeper. Like, oh see, look what happened to the Dolphins and Browns. Imo, this will make them even less likely to change their ways if they feel like they could get caught up in a firestorm if it didn’t work out. 
 

And for the record, I did not agree with Flores being fired, and thought he 100% would have a new gig very quickly. Now I’m not so sure, and to my original point I don’t see how this helps the situation. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Bobby Hooks

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Name them.

 

Oh Boy.  This is Not going to End Well.  @Chandler#81 passed me his gift for predicting these things.

[RoyBatty is alive]

This is going to get better.

 

Now Belichek is entering the cross hairs.

 

"the more Flores speaks, the more he appears to point to Belichick as being a significant witness — and possibly even a participant — in some of the systemic problems plaguing the NFL’s hiring process. That’s what Flores suggested this week on the National Public Radio podcast “The Limits.” That notion went a little further beyond Belichick’s texts being included as an exhibit in the lawsuit".

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

19 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

While there does need to be changes made and the person you quoted...to me at least is being a bit overzealous...there should be changes for all minorities IMO.

 

We have 1 Latino and 1 Lebanese Head Coach. However when the debate comes up it's made into a "black/white" issue and not a "white/minority" issue as IMO it should be. 1 black HC is often mentioned...3 total minority HC is often forgotten.

 

3 out of 32 is still poor and there needs to be improvement. But if the issue is truly about diversity it needs to be diversity for all and not just 1 group of minorities.

 

https://nypost.com/2021/05/22/eugene-chung-nfl-team-said-im-not-right-minority-in-interview/

 

You stated a position much more succinctly than I was trying too. Thank you. This has become a very complicated mess with a lot of layers.

 

Anyone with friends and relatives who are Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern etc, and has an honest dialogue, knows that they are increasingly feeling left out of the national political dialogue. The white vs black identity politics being pushed in every situation marginalizes all other minority concerns and successes. It also discounts ethnic diversities that go much deeper than skin color alone. Yet here we are, continuing to propagate skin color based arguments that alienate 1/3 or more of the country when it is convenient. This is relevant to Brian Flores and his claims.

 

Brian Flores is a heck of a coach. I went back the past few days and read his story. It is the story of first generation success that all immigrant families strive for. His is a story of perseverance, hard work and success. If the claims about the Dolphins bribing him to tank are true, and he refused, I respect that part of Brian Flores even more. If true, that is a damning claim against the integrity of the NFL that goes well beyond hiring practices and could damage all players, coaches and executives going forward regardless of ethnicity. No one wants to watch or invest in a 'fixed game'. That goes for sponsors who pay for advertising that is the backbone of NFL revenue.

 

Brian Flores is first generation Honduran American. His parents, Raul and Maria, immigrated to the USA from Honduras in the 1970's. He is latino. Only 3% of Hondurans identify as black, 3% White and 80% Mesitzo (the rest are Amerind or other). When Flores was hired by the now allegedly 'racist' Dolphins, it was widely celebrated that Flores was the third latino HC in NFL history. (Tom Flores and Ron Rivera were the prior two). Now an alleged slight has been done in employment decisions, and his entire latino/Honduran ethnicity and background is thrown out and ignored. How convenient. We revert back to black vs white identity politics. Anyone pointing this out is a 'racist' or disingenuous? It is sad, backwards and marginalizes the true ethnic diversity in our country.

 

Take a look back at the 2019 Miami Dolphins org chart when Flores was hired and his coaching staff assembled.

• Vice Chairman (one of many) - Jorge Perez
• Assistant GM - Marvin Allen
• Senior Personnel Executive - Reggie McKenzie
• HC - Brian Flores
• Assistant HC/ QB coach - Jim Caldwell (who I do think got screwed)
• DC - Patrick Graham

That is a whole lot of minorities in executive levels, and 3/4 of the highest coaching positions were minorities. But now Ross and the Dolphins are 'racist'? It doesn't hold up. IMO this is why Fores went full scorched earth and put to question the competitive integrity of Ross and the Dolphins. Unfortunately by doing so he called into question the integrity of the entire league and everyone involved with it.

 

Let's have a moment of honesty. Flores lost a power struggle in Miami with a GM (Grier) and owner Ross. Congratulations to Flores. He ascended to the level he could have an executive level power struggle. People in executive positions, governments and the highest levels of management face these types of power struggles all over the world. I dream of the day I reach a level where I have an executive power struggle. Ross and Grier felt they provided a QB and many other very high draft picks for Flores to succeed. Ross wanted playoffs or else before the 2021 season began. This is documented. Flores went 0-3 in attempts to make the playoffs. Maybe the picks weren't good, maybe it was coaching. Instead of being a professional and realizing this was not a fit, Flores went full nuclear and claimed both racism and questioned league integrity. It's shame because there were still plenty of opportunities for a talented and hard working coach like Flores to be a HC or DC and find a better fit.

 

As for the Giants, he ran into the GM/Coaching tree lines and favoritism that is part of the NFL. Look back at almost any HC or coordinator, and you will often identify clear GM/ Coaching trees. Some could call it cronyism, and I think that would be fair. When former Eagle Ron Rivera was promoted to HC in Carolina, he hired Sean McDermott, a failed DC in Philadelphia. Was that a racist hire? When Andy Reid was fired from the Eagles and became HC of the Chiefs he hired Eric Bienemy, a player he coached on the Eagles. Were better qualified OC overlooked? Certainly, and some were probably minorities. You can't cry racism, when cronyism goes both ways. People in the NFL hire people they are familiar with and trust. As more positional coaches and OC/DC are minorities they will benefit from it.

 

When Schoen was hired as GM of the Giants, almost everyone knew that Daboll or Frazier had a leg up on the competition. I believe 6/8 Divisional winners last year were offensive minded. Vrabel and McDermott being exceptions. Offensive minded coaches have a clear leg up in hiring this round. It is an offensive game. Many believe (correctly or not) that Daboll was the QB whisperer to Josh Allen. The Giants, who are struggling offensively wanted a part of that, and Schoen has a relationship with Daboll. Cronyism, not racism.

 

If Frazier had been hired as the Giants HC instead, would Flores have filed a law suit? Would it have been racism or cronyism? Would Flores have gone scorched earth in that situation?

 

But all of this was not enough for Flores. Flores decided to attack Elway and drag BB into this. He attacked the integrity of the league and fair competition. He did not point out cronyism. He attacked NFL royalty. All of it in the name of 'racism'.

 

Somewhere along it all, Flores threw away his own Honduran ancestry and hard earned success as a latino pioneer in the NFL to try to prove a misguided point. Now the media, his attorneys and claims are in the convenient trope of black/white 'racism'. All we see reported in the media is the 1/32 black HC stat, once again discounting other minority successes. Somehow Rivera and Saleh are no longer counted in the national dialogue as minorities, or successes. No mention is made of the dozens of minority OC/DC in the league awaiting their turn. David Culley is used an example of woke racism because he was 'black' and fired, despite the fact Culley is actually Lebanese. Once again if it is not black vs white, then it doesn't count, and other minorities are marginalized and stripped of a voice.

 

Flores killed off any chance of ever being hired in the NFL again and created a self-fulfilled prophecy. In doing so he has potentially damaged the reputation of the game, diminished his role as a latino role model, as a first generation American role model, and denigrated the success of other minorities who don't fit the black versus white narrative.

 

He did it all by himself. No racism needed.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you've cited this statistic several times.  Can you point us to a source for it?  Because I'm not sure it's correct.  Thanks!

 

One contention is that the reason there are no longer 8 black coaches is that black coaches are given a "shorter leash" and less time than white coaches with comparable records (Joseph vs Florio) and that "retread" white coaches are rehired and given 2nd chances more often than former black head coaches.  So the fact that there were, and now there aren't, may be part of a picture of disparate treatment.

 

 

I agree with all of this.   In particular, as someone else pointed out, the trend seems to be to hire offensive coordinators as head coaches, and there are not many black offensive coordinators and fewer who call plays.  And as you point out, the one who does (Leftwich) seems to feel confident enough that he can sit back and dictate his terms.

 

Culley absolutely got hosed IMO.  He did a very good job developing Davis Mills and leading a terrible team to 4 wins.  Firing him then considering McCown is a joke.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

14 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

 

Culley was in way over his head, never should have been hired.   If he was the Bills HC you would be livid.   He made multiple guffaws that cost the Texans games including against the Patriots, 

 

HOUSTON -- In hindsight, Houston Texans coach David Culley acknowledged Monday that he wishes he had declined a penalty during a narrow loss to the New England Patriots that would have involved accepting a touchdown along with gaining crucial additional time for the offense to make a late comeback attempt.

By declining the illegal shift penalty during Patriots running back Rhamondre Stevenson’s touchdown run in hopes of defensive coordinator Lovie Smith's defense forcing a turnover on ensuing downs, Culley set the stage for the Patriots burning through most of the remaining time

 

And the Browns,

 

Texans coach David Culley made one of the strangest coaching decisions in the NFL in Week 2. He declined a defensive penalty that would have kept a Texans drive alive and proceeded to punt the ball.

 

To recap, the Texans had the ball on their own 38-yard line early in the second quarter and were facing a third-and-15. Browns defensive end Takkarist McKinley jumped offside on the third-down play, on which Taylor connected with Brandin Cooks for a 13-yard gain.

From there, the Texans had a couple of decisions. The team could accept the penalty and try to convert a third-and-10, or Culley could decline it and try to convert a fourth-and-2 from Cleveland's 49-yard line.

Instead, Houston chose to unexpectedly punt. Culley admitted on Monday that his decision to do so was a mistake.

 

There were more, he should have been fired.

 

[QLBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Culley was in way over his head, never should have been hired.   If he was the Bills HC you would be livid.   He made multiple guffaws that cost the Texans games including against the Patriots, 

 

HOUSTON -- In hindsight, Houston Texans coach David Culley acknowledged Monday that he wishes he had declined a penalty during a narrow loss to the New England Patriots that would have involved accepting a touchdown along with gaining crucial additional time for the offense to make a late comeback attempt.

By declining the illegal shift penalty during Patriots running back Rhamondre Stevenson’s touchdown run in hopes of defensive coordinator Lovie Smith's defense forcing a turnover on ensuing downs, Culley set the stage for the Patriots burning through most of the remaining time

 

And the Browns,

 

Texans coach David Culley made one of the strangest coaching decisions in the NFL in Week 2. He declined a defensive penalty that would have kept a Texans drive alive and proceeded to punt the ball.

 

To recap, the Texans had the ball on their own 38-yard line early in the second quarter and were facing a third-and-15. Browns defensive end Takkarist McKinley jumped offside on the third-down play, on which Taylor connected with Brandin Cooks for a 13-yard gain.

From there, the Texans had a couple of decisions. The team could accept the penalty and try to convert a third-and-10, or Culley could decline it and try to convert a fourth-and-2 from Cleveland's 49-yard line.

Instead, Houston chose to unexpectedly punt. Culley admitted on Monday that his decision to do so was a mistake.

 

There were more, he should have been fired.

 

All that is true. He was given a dreadful roster, a superstar qb who could not play, and a less than respected owner. They competed in most games and most importantly were developing Davis Mills big time. 
The general theme is unless you operate like Urban you almost always get a 2nd year minimum and imho I think he deserved that. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/1/2022 at 4:55 PM, Warcodered said:

Wasn't it Watson?

 

 

[Sharky7337]

59 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

Marvin Lewis is laughing all the way to the bank

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

I still can't believe Brady wanted to play for the Dols.  They weren't a QB away from winning a SB.

[reddogblitz]

10 hours ago, HamSandwhich said:

So of the relevant population - those who know the most about playing and coaching American football - more than half of the players are black, more than 1/3 of the overall coaching population is black, but 3-9% of the top level HC are black.

 

I don't think you have to be a stats genius to realize that something non-random, something systematic, is probably at work there.

 

I have to question if the NFL HC hiring practice is systemic racism and here's why:

 

The founder of Critical Race Theory Joe Feagin says:

 

Quote

Feagin defines systemic racism in the introduction to "Racist America: Roots, Current Realities, and Future Reparations":

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society’s major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society—the economy, politics, education, religion, the family—reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

 

So when I hear that there is systemic racism in NFL HC hiring the first question is OK, how many do we have?  1 or 3 is on obviously low compared to racial lines (14% Black).  But I seem to remember recently we had more.  So I looked back the last 15 years starting in. 2006.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/coaches.htm

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

I'm sure there is some racism going on cuz its everywhere.  But as far as being systemically racist per definition, it doesn't seem to pencil out.

 

 

[harryS]

1 hour ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

Brian Flores is first generation Honduran American. His parents, Raul and Maria, immigrated to the USA from Honduras in the 1970's. He is latino.

 

Very good post, and I hit the like button on it.  Flores, however, is black and self-identifies as black.  Now he may also be "latino" depending on how you want to define that (if being from Honduras is enough without any regard to genetic makeup, then he's "latino") that but his parents are Afro-Honduran.  Basically, back in the day, conquistadors would bring African slaves with them while doing their colonizing, and that's how Africans ends up in Honduras.

[BuffaloBillyG]

8 minutes ago, harryS said:

 

Very good post, and I hit the like button on it.  Flores, however, is black and self-identifies as black.  Now he may also be "latino" depending on how you want to define that (if being from Honduras is enough without any regard to genetic makeup, then he's "latino") that but his parents are Afro-Honduran.  Basically, back in the day, conquistadors would bring African slaves with them while doing their colonizing, and that's how Africans ends up in Honduras.

What's fun is that in the Wiki page you linked to for your proof...Brian Flores is listed as a notable Afro-Honduran. He's listed under Soccer with American football coach as his description.

[HamSandwhich]

20 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I have to question if the NFL HC hiring practice is systemic racism and here's why:

 

The founder of Critical Race Theory Joe Feagin says:

 

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

 

So when I hear that there is systemic racism in NFL HC hiring the first question is OK, how many do we have?  1 or 3 is on obviously low compared to racial lines (14% Black).  But I seem to remember recently we had more.  So I looked back the last 15 years starting in. 2006.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/coaches.htm

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

I'm sure there is some racism going on cuz its everywhere.  But as far as being systemically racist per definition, it doesn't seem to pencil out.

 

 

You lost me at “because it’s everywhere”

[Mango]

The league is at a real risk of having 8 head coaching vacancies, 2 BIPOC fired, and no BIPOC replaced. I don't mean that as a need to fulfill a quota. The league just cannot explain that away. Including players who identify as multi-racial (black and...) ~65% of the NFL is BIPOC and has been that way for over a generation. Sure it is statistically possible to flip a count 32 times and have it land on heads on 3 times. Also possible to roll a dice 32 times and never role 1,2,3, or 4. But it is HIGHLY improbable. 

The tinfoil hat voice in the back of my head thinks maybe the league agrees to let Deshaun play to make that job more enticing for a candidate. As a business, the issue with the Browns and Dolphins, Flores law suit, no black head coaches is far too much to risk with their antitrust exemption on the line. 

 

I haven't caught up on what I missed in this thread, but the last few pages are now sort of questioning the blackness or lack there of with Flores by mentioning whether or not he is latino. Something some people may want to pay attention to. It is subtle but also really important. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Mango

[RaoulDuke79]

23 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

This is going to get better.

 

Now Belichek is entering the cross hairs.

 

"the more Flores speaks, the more he appears to point to Belichick as being a significant witness — and possibly even a participant — in some of the systemic problems plaguing the NFL’s hiring process. That’s what Flores suggested this week on the National Public Radio podcast “The Limits.” That notion went a little further beyond Belichick’s texts being included as an exhibit in the lawsuit".

I for one am flabbergasted that the Patriots organization would be affiliated with football in any manner other than its most purest form of integrity.....The Patriot way has always been the benchmark,  No?

Edited February 5, 2022 by RaoulDuke79

[harryS]

46 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

 

 

Really good post.  To answer your question, when you're dealing with numbers and sample size that low, 3 years is just a blip and not necessarily a meaningful trend yet.  It'd be akin to asking why this baseball player who usually bats .300 is only batting .200 over the past two weeks.

[Mango]

1 minute ago, harryS said:

 

Really good post.  To answer your question, when you're dealing with numbers and sample size that low, 3 years is just a blip and not necessarily a meaningful trend yet.  It'd be akin to asking why this baseball player who usually bats .300 is only batting .200 over the past two weeks.

 

It is not a great post because it is being comparable to the general population. But 65% of the sport are BIPOC. The threshold level is far too low. Even 7 HC begs a lot of questions.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I still can't believe Brady wanted to play for the Dols.  They weren't a QB away from winning a SB.

 

he did?

[harryS]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

It is not a great post because it is being comparable to the general population. But 65% of the sport are BIPOC. The threshold level is far too low. Even 7 HC begs a lot of questions.

 

First of all, I would hope that 100% of the sport uses two legs for walking.   Next, why are we assuming player ratios and coach ratios should be the same?  Different skillsets, no?

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

he did?

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

 

 

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

I mean at the time Dolphins had a lot of picks and Brady seemingly attracted a bunch of FA to Tampa. Also keep in mind there was a kind of getting one over on Belichick feel to the whole thing starting out, going to a division rival would have been in line with that.

[Blank Stare]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

Aside from the weather, if he was going to keep playing, family, more notably Gisele, probably had something to do with that interest. Miami is quite common for travel options to/from South America. I’d imagine much easier for her Brazilian relatives coming in for a visit (or vice versa).