Overtime needs to be fixed again

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

They are terrible in the postseason because the best offenses make the postseason and the rules vastly favor the offense now. For a midseason Jags-Giants game, they are fine because the offenses are mediocre at best. In the postseason, we've seen time after time episodes of elite QBs slicing and dicing an exhausted defense and winning easily in an opening drive. Seattle vs. GB in 2014. Arizona vs. Green Bay in 2015. NE vs. Atlanta in 2016. NE vs. KC in 2018. And now KC vs. Buffalo in 2021.  The rule sucks.

Great post. Agree fully.

Sorry, thanks for correcting me.  6-9 coin flip winners won on the first drive, 8-9 won the game.  

[Buffalo Boy]

23 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It's not about just this game, although if we were the beneficiaries we'd thank our lucky stars for a lucky coin toss. It's the fact that 2/3 of of playoff games over the past decade plus have ended with only one team getting the ball and with the coin flip winner winning 89 percent of the time.

Edited 20 minutes ago by dave mcbride

    It’s chance. I have no problem with a 50/50 chance.

    A counter argument is, Do you really want your players going an extra 10 or 20 minutes in the playoffs when they have multiple games to go and are already worn out/ more prone to injury?

[BuffaloBillyG]

Oddly enough...

 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    It’s chance. I have no problem with a 50/50 chance.

    A counter argument is, Do you really want your players going an extra 10 or 20 minutes in the playoffs when they have multiple games to go and are already worn out/ more prone to injury?

It's not a 50/50 chance at all, at least according to the empirical playoff results in the high-scoring era. Playing for 10 minutes is fine with me. They often play for 10 minutes anyway. Houston beat Buffalo on the last second of OT in January 2020.

Edited January 24, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Buffalo Boy]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

It's not a 50/50 chance at all, at least according to the empirical playoff results in the high-scoring era. 

You’re right, it is less than fifty percent chance that the coin toss decides if WE win. That pesky math.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Buffalo Boy said:

You’re right, it is less than fifty percent chance that the coin toss decides if WE win. That pesky math.

I don't know what your point is. I'm not talking about the Bills specifically, I'm talking about all teams. A Coin flip is a game that shouldn't determine the game at hand -- actual football. Yet it does.

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

For the playoffs at least. No reason you shouldn't play the entire extra period

 

What about player safety?  Guys playing totally gassed out would cause more injury.  Its gotta end sometime.  Play some D.

 

Football is unlike baseball where both teams get a chance cuz, unlike baseball, it is possible to score on D and kicking teams.  I've seen OT games end this way before.

 

We did not lose cuz of the rules. It was because we didn't play well enough to win at the end primarily on D.  Our O could have scored more points earlier in the game too.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Sorry guys,

I don’t think this thread exists IF we won the coin flip yesterday.

We lost this game in regulation after Josh won it for us twice.

If, Josh scored a TD in OT under your “ new rules” we still lose because KC easily scores on their next possession. When is enough enough?

 

Hard disagree.  I have been complaining about OT for as long as I have watched football.  Anyone who has ever watched one college football game already knows how bad the NFL rules suck.  

 

The OT rule is atrocious, always has been.  I would have been beating the same drum if we won last night and Mahomes didn't get a shot to be on the field again like in 2018 when I was also screaming the OT rules need to be changed when it happened to Mahomes in the playoffs.  

 

I think if you did a poll every year with the fans for the past 25 years...every single year the poll would be in favor of changing the OT rules.  I don't know a single person who ever thought an OT game should end on a FG without the other team touching the ball (before they made the rule change) and I don't know a single person today who still thinks its a good idea to let a game end when only one team touched the ball (after a TD in the current rules).  

 

Let the great players have their chance to be great.  Its the playoffs.  I dont have an issue if they keep it the same in the regular season, but just like how there are no ties allowed in post season, the OT rules should be different to allow both teams a chance to win.  POINTS win games, so how is it fair that only ONE team gets a chance to get points?  

 

And this whole nonsense when people say "well play better defense" is stupid too because had WE won the coin toss, there was a good chance we get a TD too and win the game...meaning the TRUE decided of the game was the COIN FLIP...who ever won that was most likely going to win the game when you have two QB's paying at that level.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Southern_Bills]

Rules are fine, if we play defense in OT we get the ball back. Football is a team sport, your defense needs to show up.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Hard disagree.  I have been complaining about OT for as long as I have watched football.  Anyone who has ever watched one college football game already knows how bad the NFL rules suck.  

 

The OT rule is atrocious, always has been.  I would have been beating the same drum if we won last night and Mahomes didn't get a shot to be on the field again like in 2018 when I was also screaming the OT rules need to be changed when it happened to Mahomes in the playoffs.  

 

I think if you did a poll every year with the fans for the past 25 years...every single year the poll would be in favor of changing the OT rules.  I don't know a single person who ever thought an OT game should end on a FG without the other team touching the ball (before they made the rule change) and I don't know a single person today who still thinks its a good idea to let a game end when only one team touched the ball (after a TD in the current rules).  

 

Let the great players have their chance to be great.  Its the playoffs.  I dont have an issue if they keep it the same in the regular season, but just like how there are no ties allowed in post season, the OT rules should be different to allow both teams a chance to win.  POINTS win games, so how is it fair that only ONE team gets a chance to get points?  

 

And this whole nonsense when people say "well play better defense" is stupid too because had WE won the coin toss, there was a good cache we get a TD too and win the game...meaning the TRUE decided of the game was the COIN FLIP...who ever won that was most likely going to win the game when you have two QB's paying at that level.

It’s a game of chance. I get it. You and others don’t like it. I’m not saying your wrong to feel that way. I’m saying I disagree and think it’s fair.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I think both teams should get a possession, but we all know the rules. KC had to go 75 yards to end the game, a coin flip didn't decide the game.

[Buffalo Boy]

6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I don't know what your point is. I'm not talking about the Bills specifically, I'm talking about all teams. A Coin flip is a game that shouldn't determine the game at hand -- actual football. Yet it does.

89% of a 50% chance is less than half of the initial chance from the start.

We should agree to disagree on the coin flip.

I’m cool with it, you’re not. Life goes on.

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

It’s a game of chance. I get it. You and others don’t like it. I’m not saying your wrong to feel that way. I’m saying I disagree and think it’s fair.

 

 

But why is it fair?  That is what I don't understand how some say it is fair.  Two teams work their tails off for an entire year to get to that moment.  Both teams lay it all out on the line for 4 quarters and battle to a tie.  They are matching each other step for step.  

 

So now its fair to take all that hard work, all that effort, all great play and those great players and leave it up to chance to determine who wins?  Why even play the OT then, just award the game to the coin flip winner if its best to leave it up to chance.  

 

I get it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats all good, so I mean no disrespect at all.  But as a competitive person who loves competition, I honestly just can not wrap my head around why on the biggest stage, in the biggest games, where its win or go home that its fair for these players and coaches to have a chance play such a big role on all that work.  These are people who have sacrificed their bodies, time with their families, dealt with pain and the insane level of commitment to get to this moment, leaving it up to chance just feels like youre stealing something from them.

 

I guess I am way too competitive to see that as fair, and its why I have hated the NFL OT rules since I began watching and loving football as a child. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[stinky finger]

Does this thread exist if we won under these rules?

[Repulsif]

For post season games,

The answer is the 15 minutes OT wild

Whetever happens in OT, the length in 15 minutes

still tie ?, then go sudden death = anything win the game

15 minutes, not 10 minutes

 

for "historical" purposes, i'll do the soccer parralel

OT was 2*10 minutes

if tie -> penalty round

then they changed the rule to the sudden death (golden goal) = kinda like the current OT in football

it was fun at start but proved to be a failure

they reverted back to the old mode

Edited January 24, 2022 by Repulsif

[Buffalo Boy]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But why is it fair?  That is what I don't understand how some say it is fair.  Two teams work their tails off for an entire year to get to that moment.  Both teams lay it all out on the line for 4 quarters and battle to a tie.  They are matching each other step for step.  

 

So now its fair to take all that hard work, all that effort, all great play and those great players and leave it up to chance to determine who wins?  Why even play the OT then, just award the game to the coin flip winner if its best to leave it up to chance.  

 

I get it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats all good, so I mean no disrespect at all.  But as a competitive person who loves competition, I honestly just can not wrap my head around why on the biggest stage, in the biggest games, where its win or go home that its fair for these players and coaches to have a chance play such a big role on all that work.  These are people who have sacrificed their bodies, time with their families, dealt with pain and the insane level of commitment to get to this moment, leaving it up to chance just feels like youre stealing something from them.

 

I guess I am way too competitive to see that as fair, and its why I have hated the NFL OT rules since I began watching and loving football as a child. 

Back to my original post:

The coin flip didn’t make us call three runs and a punt in the second quarter…Daboll did that ( maybe at McD’s behest, maybe not) 

 

We didn’t even tip a single Mahomes pass much less get a pick from a guy who has been throwing them. Not the coin tosses fault.

 Ridiculous non squib kick with 13 seconds and they had their timeouts AND Mahomes???? 
 

That is why I think it was fair. We screwed ourselves. We paid for it.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

For those saying football is a team sport, defense needs to show up in ot

 

Not disagreeing but would like to know why Kansas city's defense didn't have to show up in ot 

 

Its a team sport, its the playoffs play the entire period. Involve all aspects of of a game offense defense special teams 

 

[CodeMonkey]

57 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

67 percent won on the opening drive. Of the other three games, the team that got the ball first (Houston vs. Buffalo and the Giants vs. SF) won in OT. Basically, they had one extra possession than the other team. So 8 out of 9 -- 89 percent -- benefitted from winning the coin toss. 

 

How people posting on this thread who support the current rules can look past this is beyond me.

It's not about just this game, although if we were the beneficiaries we'd thank our lucky stars for a lucky coin toss. It's the fact that 2/3 of of playoff games over the past decade plus have ended with only one team getting the ball and with the coin flip winner winning 89 percent of the time.

I wonder why the percentages of playoff teams who win the coin toss winning the game are so different than regular season (19.4% opening drive, 52.7% win).  Maybe just as simple as a significantly smaller sample size?   If it truly was 89% overall with the entire sample size I would have expected teams and fans would have been up in arms already.  For me 89% is a epic fail and would require a change to the rule. But a small sample size producing that result wouldn't lead me to a rule change.

Edited January 24, 2022 by CodeMonkey

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

I wonder why the percentages of playoff teams who win the coin toss winning the game are so different than regular season (19.4% opening drive, 52.7% win).  Maybe just as simple as a significantly smaller sample size?   If it truly was 89% overall with the entire sample size I would have expected teams and fans would have been up in arms already.  For me 89% is a epic fail and would require a change to the rule. But a small sample size producing that result wouldn't lead me to a rule change.

My theory is that the coin toss doesn't matter so much in a Jax-vs.-Carolina or WFT-vs.-Giants OT regular season game. The offenses just aren't good and struggle to move the ball via the air. In the NFL playoffs, practically all the teams are good, and most have excellent QBs who can surgically dissect tired defenses. There's just a huge quality gap between run of the mill teams and a much narrower field heavily populated by the likes of Mahomes, Brady, Allen, Rodgers, Russell Wilson, etc. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Back to my original post:

The coin flip didn’t make us call three runs and a punt in the second quarter…Daboll did that ( maybe at McD’s behest, maybe not) 

 

We didn’t even tip a single Mahomes pass much less get a pick from a guy who has been throwing them. Not the coin tosses fault.

 Ridiculous non squib kick with 13 seconds and they had their timeouts AND Mahomes???? 
 

That is why I think it was fair. We screwed ourselves. We paid for it.

 

No disrespect, but that is a silly argument and you can say that for either team.  If you want to use that logic, then I ask again, why even play OT at all and just give the coin toss winner the victory right away  if its each teams fault for plays each other didnt make in regulation.  

 

You are treating the coin flip as a punishment that is fitting due to plays one team or the other didn't make in any part of regulation.  Literally none of that has any impact on what is a "fair" way to determine the winner of a game.  Josh played a near perfect game, but you still want to justify his punishment by saying we could have scored even more points than we did back in the 2nd quarter?  

 

What is fair is not blaming OT for WHY we lost.  You can always point to something in regulation that could have happened different to avoid OT, that is true for 100% of all OT games that have ever existed for both teams in that game.  But it doesn't matter...once you are in OT, its about what is "fair" at that moment to determine a winner.  And for some reason, you think chance is fair to both teams as if one teams deserves to be punished because of something that could have done earlier in the game.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, sullim4 said:

As it stands right now, the NFL is akin to extra innings without a guarantee of a bottom half of the inning. 

 

In football it is possible to score on defense while in baseball you can't.  Big difference.

[Buffalo Boy]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but that is a silly argument and you can say that for either team.  If you want to use that logic, then I ask again, why even play OT at all and just give the coin toss winner the victory right away  if its each teams fault for plays each other didnt make in regulation.  

 

You are treating the coin flip as a punishment that is fitting due to plays one team or the other didn't make in any part of regulation.  Literally none of that has any impact on what is a "fair" way to determine the winner of a game.  Josh played a near perfect game, but you still want to justify his punishment by saying we could have scored even more points than we did back in the 2nd quarter?  

 

What is fair is not blaming OT for WHY we lost.  You can always point to something in regulation that could have happened different to avoid OT, that is true for 100% of all OT games that have ever existed for both teams in that game.  But it doesn't matter...once you are in OT, its about what is "fair" at that moment to determine a winner.  And for some reason, you think chance is fair to both teams as if one teams deserves to be punished because of something that could have done earlier in the game.  

The chance itself is even to both teams.

I regard that as fair.

You don’t, cool.

[Southern_Bills]

1 hour ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

For those saying football is a team sport, defense needs to show up in ot

 

Not disagreeing but would like to know why Kansas city's defense didn't have to show up in ot 

 

Its a team sport, its the playoffs play the entire period. Involve all aspects of of a game offense defense special teams 

 

 

Not saying this to be rude, but all 3 were involved. Buffalo's defense had to be better to get Buffalo's a chance.

 

15 minutes on the clock, no need to run any sort of prevent etc. Hold them to a field goal you get a shot, if not that's on your defense. Not a coin flip.

[Brand J]

Here’s my proposal: the team that wins the coin toss has the option to receive and if they do, they get the ball on their own 1 or 2 yard line. If they elect to kick, the opposition gets the ball on their own 1 or 2 yard line. First score wins the game, regardless if it’s a FG, TD, or safety.

Edited January 24, 2022 by JayBaller10

[TheFunPolice]

leave it as it is...

 

It sucks for us right now but it's a bad idea to change a rule based on one incredibly historic game. 

 

IF they make any change, allow each team a possession no matter what. 

[phypon]

Better defense and no need for overtime...

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Southern_Bills said:

Rules are fine, if we play defense in OT we get the ball back. Football is a team sport, your defense needs to show up.

 

Points win games.  Both teams should get a chance to score points in OT.  Not...hey you get a chance BUT ONLY if you do this first ever though the other team gets to try and get points without having to do that first.  The team that won the coin flip did NOT have to play defense first to get their chance to score points.  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

Why is it fair one team by default has to beat the other team on TWO drives (first defending, then scoring) and the other only has to beat the other team on ONE drive (get the ball first and score)?  

 

2 drives to win is more than 1 drive to win...therefore not equal.  Everyone saying its fair and equal is mathematically incorrect.  

[Livinginthepast]

I wanted OT changed after the Pats beat Atlanta in the SB in 2017. That OT was a joke. Same as when the Pats won in 2018 vs the Chiefs. I would have been fine if we lost on a pick or turned it over on downs last night when we got OUR chance in OT. Just needs to be one possession guaranteed for each team . After that its sudden death. I dont think that is too much to ask. The current rule is you win on the coin toss. Especially in OT in the playoffs this is unfair and stupid. Chances are both defenses at this stage are gassed (way more so than in the regular season) and the team that wins the coin toss wins the game

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

The rules are fine and rarely needed, we stop them from making 2 catches we win, stop making excuses! 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

The NFL touts fairness:

• The last place team drafts first. (Fair & equitable.)
• The first place team drafts last. (Fair & equitable.)
• When the game begins, the coin flip winner gets to choose how the game starts.
• The coin flip loser chooses how the 2nd half starts. (Fair & equitable.)

**In OT, after both teams killed themselves for 60 minutes and proved they were equals, the NFL lets a coin flip decide who gets the ball - and that's it.  Nothing for the coin flip loser.  No more fair & equitable.  The coin flip loser must stop the coin flip winner with their defense or they go home.  Not only is this unfair (in a league that touts their fairness), in a game like the Bills Chiefs on 1/23/22, it is especially so in that neither defense was particularly effective during the first 60 minutes or to further make the point, in the last minute and 54 seconds during which 25 points were scored and the lead changed hands several times!!

I submit the following: In OT, in the playoffs, the coin flip winner has won 10 out of 11 occurrences (7 on the first drive or 64%)!!  I cite: https://dknation.draftkings.com/2022/1/24/22899288/nfl-overtime-rules-coin-flip-odds-win-loss-playoffs-regular-season

I propose there be a 10 minute OT Period.  After each teams' offense possesses the ball, the highest score wins.  (The only exception is if the kicking team or initial defense scores a safety.)  I would also propose after TD's are scored, the scoring team MUST try a 2pt conversion.  No PAT kicks.

[zow2]

They can look at it in the future. But for now the rule is the rule.

I don’t like the narrative out there that Bills fans are whining about it today.

I think the national media are making it more a thing today.  We all know we should’ve stopped them with 13 seconds remaining.

[Devilmann]

4 hours ago, msw2112 said:

Everyone knew that the coin toss winner was going to win the game, but that's not the reason the Bills lost.  They failed to effectivetively manage 13 seconds.  If the rules change for the better, I'm fine with it, but despite my mental anguish about last night's game, the OT rules are not what's bothering me.

This is how I feel 100%. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but that is a silly argument and you can say that for either team.  If you want to use that logic, then I ask again, why even play OT at all and just give the coin toss winner the victory right away  if its each teams fault for plays each other didnt make in regulation.  

 

You are treating the coin flip as a punishment that is fitting due to plays one team or the other didn't make in any part of regulation.  Literally none of that has any impact on what is a "fair" way to determine the winner of a game.  Josh played a near perfect game, but you still want to justify his punishment by saying we could have scored even more points than we did back in the 2nd quarter?  

 

What is fair is not blaming OT for WHY we lost.  You can always point to something in regulation that could have happened different to avoid OT, that is true for 100% of all OT games that have ever existed for both teams in that game.  But it doesn't matter...once you are in OT, its about what is "fair" at that moment to determine a winner.  And for some reason, you think chance is fair to both teams as if one teams deserves to be punished because of something that could have done earlier in the game.  

It's like arguing that a game of random chance is as much fun and entertaining as the game of football.  

25 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

The rules are fine and rarely needed, we stop them from making 2 catches we win, stop making excuses! 

Going back to 2011, 6 of 9 OT playoff games have been won on opening TD drives and the coin flip winner has won 8 of 9 times.

Edited January 24, 2022 by dave mcbride

[BarleyNY]

Hear me out - penalty kicks. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

35 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It's like arguing that a game of random chance is as much fun and entertaining as the game of football.  

Going back to 2011, 6 of 9 OT playoff games have been won on opening TD drives and the coin flip winner has won 8 of 9 times.

 

Out of how many total OT games?

[Jukester]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

I wanted OT changed after the Pats beat Atlanta in the SB in 2017. That OT was a joke. Same as when the Pats won in 2018 vs the Chiefs. I would have been fine if we lost on a pick or turned it over on downs last night when we got OUR chance in OT. Just needs to be one possession guaranteed for each team . After that its sudden death. I dont think that is too much to ask. The current rule is you win on the coin toss. Especially in OT in the playoffs this is unfair and stupid. Chances are both defenses at this stage are gassed (way more so than in the regular season) and the team that wins the coin toss wins the game

This right here. It’s the most simple and obvious concept and it blew my mind back when they first changed the OT rules that they wouldn’t give both teams an offensive possession. NFL rules committee is made up of buffoons.  

[TC in St. Louis]

I just watched Costas on CNN (wife had it tuned in) and he was making a point that the OT rule is the "dumbest rule in sports."  The host, Don Lemon, accused him of being a Bills fan.  Costas pointed out he has no horse in this race, but who wouldn't want to see these two QB's battle it out till somebody wins?

 

Then he asked the host what if baseball had the same stupid rule......in the World Series, extra innings, and a team scores a run in the top of the 10th.  Do you just call it a game, or do you let the home team get a chance to do something?

 

Great analogy.

 

They also discussed soccer for a moment.  I think that's pretty lame, too.  Teams play for 135 minutes and then guys line up and try to score on a goalie.  That's b.s. too.  

[downunderbill]

I doubt the rule is going to change unfortunately, KC already tried that. There does seem to be a lot more support this time around so that might get the leagues attention. 

[sven233]

The rule stinks.  Always has. 

 

But last night had nothing to do with the OT and the coin toss.  It was about everything that happened in regulation with 13 seconds left.  Coaches blew the game.  PERIOD.