Leslie Frazier / Brian Daboll - If they go, who would you want as their replacement(s)?

[HamptonBillsfan]

Dabol is great for us, but he will be ordinary without Josh. Dorsey must be retained at all costs. Josh loves him and he trained under Dabol and we won't skip a beat. Frazier is fine but we need a more aggressive DC to beat good offensive teams. Someone like Schwartz would be better. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

For reference, after Atlanta blew a 28-3 lead in the SB, their OC still got a HC job.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Dorsey the popular choice, why. When has he proven he can design an offense and call a game?

 

I think people just know it will be him. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, HamptonBillsfan said:

Dabol is great for us, but he will be ordinary without Josh. Dorsey must be retained at all costs. Josh loves him and he trained under Dabol and we won't skip a beat. Frazier is fine but we need a more aggressive DC to beat good offensive teams. Someone like Schwartz would be better. 

It also has to be a scheme fit. Love Jimmy but I’m not sure he can teach the McDefense. A promote from within might make the most sense.

 

Something to consider with Frazier, things weren’t peaches and cream until last night. Sean has had to pull DC play calling and power from Frazier several times over the years to get things back on track. The defense underperformed significantly last year and looked average vs experienced QBs this year. 

[FilthyBeast]

If Beane and McDermott don't realize a wholesale change in defensive philosophy in the offseason then maybe they don't deserve to be here long term.

 

And with guys like Martindale, Fangio, etc available the time is now to move on from Frazier whether he gets a HC gig or not.

[LittleSammy]

1 hour ago, thunderingsquid said:

I'd take a potato over Frazier right now.  

The thing that drives me crazy is McDermott is the HC and should have overridden Frazier, if it was indeed Frazier's call. Not totally convinced it wasn't McDermott overruling Frazier.

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

11 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Dorsey the popular choice, why. When has he proven he can design an offense and call a game?

He’s an elite QB coach who’s gotten 2 different QBs to play at an MVP level.

 

He was the passing game coordinator this year, Allen broke the Reg/Postseason TD record. 
 

If he isn’t our OC, he’ll be someone else’s in 2022.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Looks like Giants interviewing Daboll on Tuesday. Second interview

[HamptonBillsfan]

1 minute ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

It also has to be a scheme fit. Love Jimmy but I’m not sure he can teach the McDefense. A promote from within might make the most sense.

 

Something to consider with Frazier, things weren’t peaches and cream until last night. Sean has had to pull DC play calling and power from Frazier several times over the years to get things back on track. The defense underperformed significantly last year and looked average vs experienced QBs this year. 

Good take, who could come from within? Is there a position coach you like?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

Fangio for the D

Dorsey for the O

This is the answer

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, LittleSammy said:

The thing that drives me crazy is McDermott is the HC and should have overridden Frazier, if it was indeed Frazier's call. Not totally convinced it wasn't McDermott overruling Frazier.

 

Ehh, history points to when McD is controlling the defense, they play very well. He’s had to pull power from Frazier several times over the years. 

[Mat68]

The offense is dynamic and elite because of Allen.  Mcdermott not mandating a ball control offense and giving the OC full control is as large an impact on Allens growth as any. 
 

Great Qbs have this impact on coaches.  I think having another playcaller could be a net positive.  On defense Mcdermott will maintain his style with whoever is brought in if Frazier leaves.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Mat68

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 minute ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Good take, who could come from within? Is there a position coach you like?

DB coach comes to mind first, Bulter I believe. Pretty sure he’s a former DC. 

Just now, Mat68 said:

The offense is dynamic and elite because of Allen.  Mcdermott not mandating a ball control offense and giving the OC full control is as large an impact on Allens growth as any. 

Agreed, McD doesn’t want to micromanage the O and D, he wants to trust his coordinators.

 

They let him down. 

4 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Looks like Giants interviewing Daboll on Tuesday. Second interview

Good. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

18 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

People are upset and want change for the sake of change.
 

There’s really only so much you can do when you have a guy like Tyreek Hill going up against Levi Wallace and Dane Jackson. 

People also act like what we did last night was all you could do. I've got news for you, teams didn't allow KC 42 pts and almost 600 yards every ***** game. Not change for change sake, but you've got to be able to protect a lead with 13 seconds left.

[Governor]

I hated the Frazier hire. The scheme needs to change. It will never be good enough.

[Mat68]

This game down to the players imo.  Buffalo didnt have an answer for Kcs speed once they were tired.  Kc defense was gassed as well.  They got the ball they won.  Get the smartest football minds and coach in the forth qrt and overtime.  Mahomes and Allen were unstoppable.  Scheme wasnt doing than.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by Mat68

[HamptonBillsfan]

4 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

DB coach comes to mind first, Bulter I believe. Pretty sure he’s a former DC. 

Agreed, McD doesn’t want to micromanage the O and D, he wants to trust his coordinators.

 

They let him down. 

Good. 

I don't know how he would translate to DC, but he did a good job with limited resources,especially after Tre went down. 

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not sure I agree. They can tweak stuff, they do every year, but I don't agree with ripping up their philosophy. I don't know who the example of "aggressive" style defenses that are excelling in the league are? Maybe Tampa qualify.... Arizona.... but neither of them had great years defensively. 

 

It's a pass rusher getting home. We spend too much of our cap 23% on a dl rotation, we have several meh players and not one beast like a Clark or Jones etc.

 

i get the roational aspect of it all amd staying fresh later, but you lose the ability change the game. Our guys got pressure overpenetrated and allowed mahomes to slither around the pocket. Look at what Ingram did to brown on a couple plays, we cant tackle the qb for a loss. JMO

 

Edit: Oliver is starting to really come on, we need one more great edge guy along with Phillips to do some work

Edited January 24, 2022 by Reed83HOF

[billsfan1959]

18 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

If Beane and McDermott don't realize a wholesale change in defensive philosophy in the offseason then maybe they don't deserve to be here long term.

 

And with guys like Martindale, Fangio, etc available the time is now to move on from Frazier whether he gets a HC gig or not.

 

They are not going to undergo a "wholesale change in defensive philosophy," nor should they.

[Mat68]

17 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

If Beane and McDermott don't realize a wholesale change in defensive philosophy in the offseason then maybe they don't deserve to be here long term.

 

And with guys like Martindale, Fangio, etc available the time is now to move on from Frazier whether he gets a HC gig or not.

Disagree.  Mcdermott has had a top pass defense almost every year.  They need a guy to pair with White.  Wallace and Jackson just werent athletic enough to match Hill, Harmon and Kelce consistently.

[78thealltimegreat]

Assuming Dabs is headed to New York with Schoen as is rumored. 

 

Do you stay in house with Ken Dorsey knowing he’ll keep the same terminology but hasn’t called plays.

Or do you look outside for a different vision for the offense? Like say a Doug Pederson who sounds like he wants to get back in coaching and wasn’t exactly a bad coach in Philly his tenure went south with Carson Wentz’s  injuries. 

[Starr Almighty]

2 hours ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

Fangio for the D

Dorsey for the O

Nice but they aren't gonna good anywhere and the Bills aren't going to fire them. It just part of the way things go for us. We all know this.

[Rubes]

Feels like I've seen this thread somewhere...

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

That rotation did a lot of good in the 4th quarter last night… 

I don't even know what emoji to use for a response to this...

 

Ugh

[NewEra]

I don’t know anything about Ken Dorsey.  Never sat in a meeting room or had a conversation with the man.  If McD wants him, I want him.  If McD wants someone else, I want that someone else.  I trust him.  

[pigpen65]

Honestly don't think OC choice is making or breaking anything. 

[Mat68]

Promote from within or maybe Bill O’brien.  He isnt a popular name but had a very good offense with Brady and multiple sets.  I dont want a Shannahan lite offense.  Keep what they got with a new set of eyes.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Mat68

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

It's a pass rusher getting home. We spend too much of our cap 23% on a dl rotation, we have several meh players and not one beast like a Clark or Jones etc.

 

i get the roational aspect of it all amd staying fresh later, but you lose the ability change the game. Our guys got pressure overpenetrated and allowed mahomes to slither around the pocket. Look at what Ingram did to brown on a couple plays, we cant tackle the qb for a loss. JMO

 

Edit: Oliver is starting to really come on, we need one more great edge guy along with Phillips to do some work

 

Agreed on that. I think they have to hope for a second year step from Greg and they have to give him more chances IMO. Took him off the field on 3rd down too often this year. It would be great to get out hands on a vet like a Mack or someone who could give you a two year burst but he hasn't been a double digit guy since his first year in Chi town. Depends what the asking price is. Everyone was desperate to land JJ Watt 12 months ago, he played 7 games and had 1 sack. So I am all for the risk of an older player to put us over the top but needs to be a calculated gamble IMO. 

[appoo]

Think there will be some philosophical discussions that need to happen first. The 4-2-5 may not be a system that could ever hope to stop Mahomes and modern spreads. 

 

3-4 with disguised blitzes and coverages may be better suited. You have a lot of pieces in place for that to work as well, with Milano/Edmunds as your MLBs, Oliver as a DE, Harrison Phillips as a NT, I think Boogie woudl be fine as a 3-4 DE, while Rousseau is almost a protype for a OLB...

 

I think you need to be more dynamic in your scheme, and a 3-4 gives you a lot more versatility. It also allows you to drop 8 into coverage a lot easier. 

 

Pair a philosophical change and hire Wink Martindale

[Buckeye4Life]

A squib kick would have burned at least 2-3 secs, maybe more if the recipient miss handles the ball. If the ball handler advances the ball, at least 5 secs would have been used or if he downed it quickly, the Chiefs would have been backed up further.

 

Last, the defense was playing the sidelines as if the Chiefs had no time outs. The middle was wide open. Should have rushed  2 not 4 (just a waste of personnel), played man to man on Kelce & Hill. The rest of the back end should have been in zone with 2 high safties.

 

Dont' know what the defensive coordinator was thinking but high school coaches would do better if in a similar situation.  Coaches lost this game.

[theRalph]

Based on this game, perhaps Frazier decided he wants to stay on as the Bills DC...he didn't do himself any favors last night. Unless he plans on throwing McDermott under the bus for the deep KO. 

 

There are stats that told us the Bills D was #1. They don't feel #1. A #1 D looks like the 2000 Ravens—who seemed like a much nastier group than we have.

10 minutes ago, appoo said:

Think there will be some philosophical discussions that need to happen first. The 4-2-5 may not be a system that could ever hope to stop Mahomes and modern spreads. 

 

3-4 with disguised blitzes and coverages may be better suited. You have a lot of pieces in place for that to work as well, with Milano/Edmunds as your MLBs, Oliver as a DE, Harrison Phillips as a NT, I think Boogie woudl be fine as a 3-4 DE, while Rousseau is almost a protype for a OLB...

 

I think you need to be more dynamic in your scheme, and a 3-4 gives you a lot more versatility. It also allows you to drop 8 into coverage a lot easier. 

 

Pair a philosophical change and hire Wink Martindale

A calm and sane take. You describe something closer to the Ravens 2000 D. A proper scheme and a game wrecker or two would go a long way. There needs to be more nasty. Has Frazier ever even uttered a nasty word??

[theRalph]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

That rotation did a lot of good in the 4th quarter last night… 

Where the phuuuuuck are the GAME WRECKERS?????

[Helpmenow]

Nobody from Carolina 

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, Jester said:

I feel like we need a NASTY D and we don't really get that with Mr. Nice Guy Frazier.  Not sure what happened last night but they didn't seem like the #1.  And Daboll has some head scratching play calling during games. 

There was a certain contingent around the NFL this year that didn't believe we were a "true" No. 1 defense, mostly because we played a LOT of bad quarterbacks throughout the year--and our numbers suffered when playing good QBs.

 

I don't think we will lose Frazier, but I am now thinking Daboll will be gone...which doesn't bother me.

I'm not a Daboll hater, but I think he can be replaced.

 

 

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agreed on that. I think they have to hope for a second year step from Greg and they have to give him more chances IMO. Took him off the field on 3rd down too often this year. It would be great to get out hands on a vet like a Mack or someone who could give you a two year burst but he hasn't been a double digit guy since his first year in Chi town. Depends what the asking price is. Everyone was desperate to land JJ Watt 12 months ago, he played 7 games and had 1 sack. So I am all for the risk of an older player to put us over the top but needs to be a calculated gamble IMO. 

Mack is still too cap heavy to trade $24M dead cap. It could happen depending on if Chicago wants to clear cap off their books. 

 

The UFAs I would consider are Von, Chandler and Reddick. I'm sure the hope is for Greg to grow in year 2 and I'm certain Beane will mention it.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

20 minutes ago, appoo said:

Think there will be some philosophical discussions that need to happen first. The 4-2-5 may not be a system that could ever hope to stop Mahomes and modern spreads. 

 

3-4 with disguised blitzes and coverages may be better suited. You have a lot of pieces in place for that to work as well, with Milano/Edmunds as your MLBs, Oliver as a DE, Harrison Phillips as a NT, I think Boogie woudl be fine as a 3-4 DE, while Rousseau is almost a protype for a OLB...

 

I think you need to be more dynamic in your scheme, and a 3-4 gives you a lot more versatility. It also allows you to drop 8 into coverage a lot easier. 

 

Pair a philosophical change and hire Wink Martindale

 

I do not think it is the only way to go, as I do think a 4-3 scheme can work. 

 

BUT, like it or not there are more pass catchers on the field than ever, so more DBs and LBs are going to be on the field anyways. 

 

I wonder if you can keep McDermott's general defensive scheme while still going 3-4. 

[billsfan1959]

57 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

People also act like what we did last night was all you could do. I've got news for you, teams didn't allow KC 42 pts and almost 600 yards every ***** game. Not change for change sake, but you've got to be able to protect a lead with 13 seconds left.

 

(1) It was 552 yards that included OT (477 yds in 10 drives in regulation to 422 yds in 9 drives for the Bills) and (2) over their last 8 games, the Chiefs averaged 44 yards per drive and 3.7 points per drive and were pretty much the same last night at 50 yards per drive and 3.8 points per drive. The Bills were actually pretty much the same at 47 yards per drive and 4 points per drive. 

 

The 2 best QBs in the NFL playing their best football in that 4th quarter - maybe the best I have ever seen in a playoff game.

 

I'm not ready to over to overreact

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by billsfan1959

[nedboy7]

23 minutes ago, Buckeye4Life said:

A squib kick would have burned at least 2-3 secs, maybe more if the recipient miss handles the ball. If the ball handler advances the ball, at least 5 secs would have been used or if he downed it quickly, the Chiefs would have been backed up further.

 

Last, the defense was playing the sidelines as if the Chiefs had no time outs. The middle was wide open. Should have rushed  2 not 4 (just a waste of personnel), played man to man on Kelce & Hill. The rest of the back end should have been in zone with 2 high safties.

 

Dont' know what the defensive coordinator was thinking but high school coaches would do better if in a similar situation.  Coaches lost this game.

 

This is correct.  I do not understand insulting the D in this game.  They had won the game.

[Reed83HOF]

Well Josh wants Dorsey, so imma go with that 

[BuffaloBillyG]

I have been vocal about conducting a wide search...however if QB1 is going to bat for him then that's good enough for me🤷🏻‍♂️