Leslie Frazier / Brian Daboll - If they go, who would you want as their replacement(s)?

[Dopey]

6 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

You know what I find frustrating? McDermott was a disciple of the late Jim Johnson. Coach Johnson's defense was very aggressive and punched you in the mouth, sometimes to a fault. I think Coach needs to go back and look at some of that stuff and try to marry some of those zone blitz concepts. Steve Spagnola is a branch off the same tree, and what you see from him is a bit more Johnson and the attacking mentality. We need some of that back. 

What I saw from Steve was a defense about to give up 42 points to us if we win the coin toss. Kinda like our defense yesterday. 

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

What the hell's your point? The defense was acceptable last night and nothing could be done. I guarantee that McD will see things were unacceptable and make changes. If that's an overreaction I'm in favor.

 

My response was to your assertion that other teams hadn't been giving up the offensive numbers to KC that our defense did. When, in fact, as you can tell by the numbers I quoted, KC has been putting up pretty much the same numbers (yards and points per drive) the past 8 weeks or so as they did last night - and the Bills pretty much put up the same numbers against a KC defense that was, statistically, near the top of the league over the last 8 weeks or so.

 

And my overarching point was that Mahomes and Allen were both at the top of their games last night, and that much (not all) of the struggles we observed with both defenses was due to the 2 best QBs in the NFL operating their respective offenses in that 4th quarter at a level that you may never see again. There is a reason there are so many people in sports today talking about where that game fits in among the all time greatest games.

 

Does that mean that the Bills defense couldn't have played better at moments or that there couldn't have been better coaching decisions in certain situations? Of course not. It simply means that, IMO, what transpired in that game, defensively, had as much to do with how the QBs were playing as it did with poor defensive execution of coaching decisions. 

 

I just don't think emotional overreactions lend themselves to objective anlayses.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

He is the right coach for Daniel Jones. Not saying it'll work out, but Jones has the tools and the offense has the weapons.  Plus the division isn't very good. 

You do realize that McDermott called those final defenses in regulation, right?

 

Which tells you he doesn't fully trust Frazier

 

 

[dave mcbride]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Which tells you he doesn't fully trust Frazier

 

 

I dunno about that .... I think it's always going to be a collective decision in such a crucial moment. It's his job as the HEAD coach to be involved in that. That's what he's paid to do. I wouldn't read too much into it. The BIlls D was great this season and destroyed NE last week. They just ran into their nemesis this week - uncoverable guys on crossers and the other qb in the league who is as good as Josh. KC has been destroying good defenses for years.    

Edited January 24, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

It's sad that the only way we will get change on Defense is for Frazier to get hired.  McDermott isn't man enough to admit that a change is needed there.

 

not true he fired rick Dennison after year one

 

 

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I dunno about that .... I think it's always going to be a collective decision in such a crucial moment. It's his job as the HEAD coach to be involved in that. That's what he's paid to do. I wouldn't read too much into it. The BIlls D was great this season and destroyed NE last week. They just ran into their nemesis this week - uncoverable guys on crossers and the other qb in the league who is as good as Josh. KC has been destroying good defenses for years.    

 

You have to press the guys at the line especially Kelce . Double cover every weapon and keep one guy to spy Mahomes, id use Rousseau because of his height and athleticism. Not saying all the time but for the last drive.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

not true he fired rick Dennison after year one

 

 

 

You have to press the guys at the line especially Kelce . Double cover every weapon and keep one guy to spy Mahomes, id use Rousseau because of his height and athleticism. Not saying all the time but for the last drive.

 

 

the lack of Tre was huge. The physical talent for the Bills main CBs is not great. I like Wallace, but neither he nor Dane can keep up with those guys - as you saw on the crosser that Hill took to the house when matched up against Wallace. 

[Behindenemylines]

13 hours ago, Mat68 said:

I think Daboll is gone.  Not having to face Allen and Mcdermott twice a year is also a respect move.  NYG makes alot of sense. 

Agreed.  I’m not a huge fan of his play calling especially this season but I don’t dislike the guy.  Your correct not staying in division is a class move (not that this opportunity was elsewhere). Giants could be a good, patient franchise to grow him. I’m a firm believer that Allen has outgrown Dabolls abilities and a Daboll sticking around could be holding Allen back.  

[Back2Buff]

12 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

not true he fired rick Dennison after year one

 

 

 

 

 

Rick Dennison after one year is vastly different than Frazier who has been a friend of McDermott for years.

[Coach Tuesday]

10 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

the lack of Tre was huge. The physical talent for the Bills main CBs is not great. I like Wallace, but neither he nor Dane can keep up with those guys - as you saw on the crosser that Hill took to the house when matched up against Wallace. 

Agree with your points in this thread.  Scheme really isn’t the problem - talent is.  Don’t change the scheme.  It’s time to tweak the player acquisition strategy a bit to somewhat de-emphasize culture.  The culture has been built and it’s now Josh’s team.  Period.  You don’t need a high-character vet in every position group meeting.  Josh is going to set the tone for this team.  Beane can afford to take a few more risks on “character” if it means acquiring high-ceiling athletes who can do things like chase QBs, catch footballs down the field or intercept passes.  They also need to be a little bit more willing to take financial risks - this isn’t a car dealership.  Yearly returns are important but the goal should be to win a championship during the Allen Window.  Anything less than that is total legacy failure.

 

We don’t need to overhaul the schemes on either side of the ball.  We need to move away from guys like:

 

Addison

Star

Sanders

Feliciano

Taiwan Jones

Wallace

 

Go find some better football players who can impact games.  Phase 1 was dismantle the old regime.  CHECK.  Phase 2 was find a QB and build up a winning culture.  CHECK.  

Phase 3 is STOP HIDING UNDER YOUR BLANKET AND GO GET US A LOMBARDI MCBEANE.

 

Ugh I’m still pissed.  But I think I’m right about this.  Time to recalibrate the personnel strategy.  Coaching is fine (enough).

Edited January 25, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[MrEpsYtown]

14 hours ago, Dopey said:

What I saw from Steve was a defense about to give up 42 points to us if we win the coin toss. Kinda like our defense yesterday. 

 

Definitely true. My point is that I would like to see some of those elements in what we are doing defensively to add a layer of difficulty and intrigue. There really is no right or wrong way. 

14 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

why just Frazier ?

 

 

 

I was just answering the question about comp picks. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 hours ago, Process said:

Literally anyone.

 

The important thing is that they go.

 

Wow.  What amazing insight.

 

How'd that work out for the Ponies? They replaced Kubiak when a 9-7 season with Trevor Sieman wasn't good enough.  Vance Joseph and Fangio count as "literally anyone" and they haven't had a winning season since.

 

I could keep going - there are literally a half-dozen examples of winning teams who kicked a "Fall Guy" who "wasn't quite good enough" to the curb and wound up worse off.

 

We could do better, I do believe that.  But we could also do worse, including much worse.

[MrEpsYtown]

On the Daboll/Dorsey conversation, Dorsey is not necessarily his guy. Maybe he has become his guy. Dorsey is a Rob Chudzinski/Mike Shula guy. In fact, with Dorsey's relative inexperience, they should bring in Chudz or Shula as a special assistant or QBs coach under Dorsey who should be our OC. I can't see Dorsey turning down the OC job here to go with Daboll. Daboll has worked with a number of guys out there who could be his OC, so he doesn't necessarily have to scoop Dorsey. 

 

Now if McDermott has someone else in mind as an OC, then that is a different story. 

[Coach Tuesday]

12 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

On the Daboll/Dorsey conversation, Dorsey is not necessarily his guy. Maybe he has become his guy. Dorsey is a Rob Chudzinski/Mike Shula guy. In fact, with Dorsey's relative inexperience, they should bring in Chudz or Shula as a special assistant or QBs coach under Dorsey who should be our OC. I can't see Dorsey turning down the OC job here to go with Daboll. Daboll has worked with a number of guys out there who could be his OC, so he doesn't necessarily have to scoop Dorsey. 

 

Now if McDermott has someone else in mind as an OC, then that is a different story. 

 

What about Chad Hall as Daboll's OC?

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

What about Chad Hall as Daboll's OC?

 

Yeah I could see Daboll pulling Hall or even Rob Boras, so if you are Buffalo, I guess you have to decide who you want to promote out of those three guys. 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

If I'm Ken Dorsey, thinking about my career, the decision comes down to how much I know about Daboll's offense.  If I have it down cold, I stay on in Buffalo as OC and continue working with Josh and hopefully get the Lombardi Trophy.  If I still have more to learn about the offense, I go with Daboll until I fully understand it - then I am free to go off confidently on my own to what ever situation looks best for me at that time.

[london_bills]

Sal capaccio as OC

Jerry sullivan as DC

 

And IF farwell goes, Pinto Ron on special teams? 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

18 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

My response was to your assertion that other teams hadn't been giving up the offensive numbers to KC that our defense did. When, in fact, as you can tell by the numbers I quoted, KC has been putting up pretty much the same numbers (yards and points per drive) the past 8 weeks or so as they did last night - and the Bills pretty much put up the same numbers against a KC defense that was, statistically, near the top of the league over the last 8 weeks or so.

 

And my overarching point was that Mahomes and Allen were both at the top of their games last night, and that much (not all) of the struggles we observed with both defenses was due to the 2 best QBs in the NFL operating their respective offenses in that 4th quarter at a level that you may never see again. There is a reason there are so many people in sports today talking about where that game fits in among the all time greatest games.

 

Does that mean that the Bills defense couldn't have played better at moments or that there couldn't have been better coaching decisions in certain situations? Of course not. It simply means that, IMO, what transpired in that game, defensively, had as much to do with how the QBs were playing as it did with poor defensive execution of coaching decisions. 

 

I just don't think emotional overreactions lend themselves to objective anlayses.

 

You're right and what you say makes a point that I have been trying to make to many . . ."And my overarching point was that Mahomes and Allen were both at the top of their games last night, and that much (not all) of the struggles we observed with both defenses was due to the 2 best QBs in the NFL operating their respective offenses in that 4th quarter at a level that you may never see again."

After 60 minutes they were dead even - one was NOT superior to the other, then OT came, Kansas scores and the Chiefs are great and the Bills are really good, but not great.

What if the Bills get the ball and score a TD?  Are they great and the Chiefs have fallen a notch?  For this game, we'll never know, but I say both are great and DC's need to figure out how to stop/slow them down.  Until then, it'll be a lot of fun watching these two.

[Demongyz]

Sean Payton! 

That would do it for me.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Definitely true. My point is that I would like to see some of those elements in what we are doing defensively to add a layer of difficulty and intrigue. There really is no right or wrong way. 

 

I was just answering the question about comp picks. 

 

Right?? So why no comp picks for Dabol

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:08 AM, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

Fangio for the D

Dorsey for the O

Ditto

5 hours ago, Never NEVER Give-up said:

If I'm Ken Dorsey, thinking about my career, the decision comes down to how much I know about Daboll's offense.  If I have it down cold, I stay on in Buffalo as OC and continue working with Josh and hopefully get the Lombardi Trophy.  If I still have more to learn about the offense, I go with Daboll until I fully understand it - then I am free to go off confidently on my own to what ever situation looks best for me at that time.

Is the Bills offensive playbook proprietary to the organization or could Dabol just take it? Somebody better fired-up the copy machine. I would be shocked if Dorsey doesn't want to stay as OC with Josh. He'll be out of work trying to develop Jones.

[SectionC3]

Starting to wonder if maybe daboll loses NYG job Flores.  Is Flores/Watson preferable to Daboll/Trubisky? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by SectionC3

[hemma]

23 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Starting to wonder if maybe daboll loses NYG job Flores.  Is Flores/Watson preferable to Daboll/Trubisky? 

Yes very much.

Just hope Watson ends up in the NFC.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

What do you guys think of bringing Mike Pettine back? He did a great job in his one year here turning taking the same players in bad defense and turning them into a great defense. They weren't great against the run but neither are we now and he knew how to get sacks, pressure and coverage.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

He runs a 3-4 defense.

 

I want Fangio like Rick Vaughan wanted Parkman.

[Toyo321]

Hell I would take Rex Ryan back at this point.    LOL!!!!

[RyanC883]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:13 AM, dave mcbride said:

Fangio runs a very different scheme. 

 

um, we need a different scheme

[Royale with Cheese]

@RyanC883

 

Sorry for being a dick the other day.  I was just in the sh****** mood.

[RyanC883]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

@RyanC883

 

Sorry for being a dick the other day.  I was just in the sh****** mood.

 

thanks, an no worries, we were all off after that game.  😱

 

I still want TJ Watt

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

thanks, an no worries, we were all off after that game.  😱

 

I still want TJ Watt

 

Yeah I do too but it's not realistic.

 

Khalil Mack would make more sense.  If I'm reading his contract right, the Bears save $6 million by trading him.

[RyanC883]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeah I do too but it's not realistic.

 

Khalil Mack would make more sense.  If I'm reading his contract right, the Bears save $6 million by trading him.

 

I'd love Mack also.  And I know it's polarizing, but get Mack and Gronk back to Buffalo (only if Tre is okay with Gronk).  

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

Vic Fangio as DC. 100% without question. Should do it regardless what happens to Frazier.

• He had a top 5-10 defense playing against KC and the Chargers 2x each a year with a crap offense. That is a legitimate ranking.
• He won't get spooked by facing KC or the Chargers, two teams/ QBs the Bills need to be prepared to beat in the playoffs.
• As a DC he can focus on stopping those QBs and offenses.
• McDermott and Frazier are/ were DBs and see the game that way. They suck at developing DL/LB generating sacks
• Fangio always has a strong front 7 but weaker DBs. McDermott and Fangio would be complimentary.
• Fangio is more aggressive, and we need that on Defense

I know Fangio runs a 3-4. Since the game is pass first maybe a 3-4 or 3-3-5 is the way to go instead of the 4-2-5 Cover 2 Nickel Buffalo plays as a base.

 

This would change up FA and draft requirements, but that may be good. It's not like Buffalo's DL draft picks are excelling in the 4-2-5.

 

Oliver could be a beastly 3-4/ 3-3-5 DE.

Rosseau would fit in there too.

Draft a proper 1T at NT. A name has come up in the threads as a 1T DT, I can't find it now. Star is under contract 1 more year.

 

Move heaven and earth to get Haasan Reddick to come here as a LB (his 2022-2025 years with Carolina are void).

This would be Fangio's new Von Miller and the Bills stud pass rusher. Reddick is a former Panther now, and he is still young.

 

Maybe Fangio could get Edmunds to play to his potential in a 3-4/ 3-3-5 LB corps, if Fangio can't no one will.

 

my 2 cents

 

For Offense promote Ken Dorsey. He was QB coach of Cam Newton the year Newton won NFL MVP. He came to Buffalo in Allen's 2nd year and has been QB coach since. TIme for him to step up, and Allen likes him.

[Comebackkid]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:28 AM, MrEpsYtown said:

Mike Zimmer makes a lot of sense. 

 

Fangio is a 3-4 guy. A lot of what they do is 4-3 under type stuff, but not sure it meshes with McDermott. 

 

Brian Flores would be awesome.

 

Patrick Graham, who is a Belicheat/Flores disciple would be an interesting fit as well. 

 

Bring back Jim Schwartz. 

 

Or call me crazy, but is there anyone on the planet who knows what McDermott wants to do defensively more than Luke Kuechly? Dude is brilliant and knows exactly what coach wants. Everyone else is hiring young guys without experience, why not us? 

 

All that said, if Frazier gets another job is or is let go (which I think is highly unlikely) I think they just promote their DBs coach John Butler. 

Swartz had a terrible red zone D

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeah I do too but it's not realistic.

 

Khalil Mack would make more sense.  If I'm reading his contract right, the Bears save $6 million by trading him.

 

Haasan Reddick in Fangio's 3-4 or a 3-3-5???? could be spicy...

[Joe Ferguson]

Rex Ryan for DC

Nate Hackett for OC

[MrEpsYtown]

13 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Right?? So why no comp picks for Dabol

 

 

 

Comp picks only for developing minority coaches and front office people who move on to a premium position. 

[Back2Buff]

Frazier aint going anywhere.

 

Doug Pederson for OC.  Him and Mcdermott crossed paths in Philly.  You have to be off your rocker to let Dorsey run this offense.

[BillMafia716ix]

Whoever Sean McD thinks is the right man for the job. He’s shown he can put a great staff together. 

[Governor]

12 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

Starting to wonder if maybe daboll loses NYG job Flores.  Is Flores/Watson preferable to Daboll/Trubisky? 

Giants fans are telling me it Flores job to lose. Perhaps Daboll doesn’t interview well.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:32 AM, MrEpsYtown said:

If Daboll goes, you are probably getting Ken Dorsey as the OC and Mike Shula as QB coach. 

Why Mike Schula?

[MrEpsYtown]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Why Mike Schula?

 

Just connecting dots. Dorsey got most of his training and development under Shula and Chudzinski. I believe he even played for Chudz. Since Dorsey would be an inexperienced OC, I think the move is to bring in a more experienced guy to be the QB coaching working under Dorsey. Those two guys are connected to Dorsey and HC and readily available.