Upon further review ... Spencer Brown is a BALLER

[FilthyBeast]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Well, this weeks the test. Chiefs have a stout line and Chris Jones ***** on the interior line in the championship game last year. 

 

This is the true key to the game, if the Bills can't keep Jones in check they won't have a chance in this game because they will fall behind big early and not be able to keep pace with Mahomes.

 

Also why the first matchup has a true asterisk and means nothing in hindsight because this guy wasn't on the field.

[Matt_In_NH]

That man looks enormous when compared to other NFL linemen! 

[appoo]

2 hours ago, JÂy RÛßeÒ said:

Cody Ford = rare Beane draft miss.  Brown is the one.

He made up for it by trading for Ryan Bates that same off season

[Doc]

59 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

The unexpected emergence of Spencer Brown has been a top highlight in another great season full of highlights.

 

Our OL needs some serious work, but that load on Beane seems to be lightening with Brown's development and the coaching decision to FINALLY start Bates. We've gone from needing 3-4 new OL, to maybe 1-3.

 

Dawkins is locked in, Brown is now locked in, Bates and Feliciano bring a good competition to LG and general, versatile interior OL depth (not to forget about D Williams).

 

Need to find Morse's replacement, and 1 or 2 more Guard prospects, and we should be ready to roll.

 

They can bring back the entire current starting OL next year, provided Morse doesn't retire (I'm sure they'll tender Bates).  They've got Dawkins and Brown signed through 2024 and Williams through 2023.  If Bates plays well, they may extend him.  That leaves Morse as the oldest and position they'll really need to address sooner rather than later.

[appoo]

Pretty impressive in season overhaul honestly

 

We started out with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Ford

C - Morse

RG - Feliciano

RT - Williams

 

We're finishing with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Bates

C - Morse

RG - Williams

RT- Brown

 

Three new starting positions, and both Bates and Brown look like plus players at their spots. That means you can go cheap/young for the other starting guard, swing and depth. 

 

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

They can bring back the entire current starting OL next year, provided Morse doesn't retire (I'm sure they'll tender Bates).  They've got Dawkins and Brown signed through 2024 and Williams through 2023.  If Bates plays well, they may extend him.  That leaves Morse as the oldest and position they'll really need to address sooner rather than later.

 

Like a first round tender. He's well worth 4.7M against the cap

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Doc said:

 

They can bring back the entire current starting OL next year, provided Morse doesn't retire (I'm sure they'll tender Bates).  They've got Dawkins and Brown signed through 2024 and Williams through 2023.  If Bates plays well, they may extend him.  That leaves Morse as the oldest and position they'll really need to address sooner rather than later.

 

Sure, at the very least we can keep exactly what we have, which is finally starting to gel and click. But I do think there is room for improvement at OG, and certainly Center.

 

Jordan Davis in the 1st, Best Center on the Board in the 2nd, and I think we're good!

[muppy]

1 hour ago, RobbRiddick said:

If the Bills do win the super bowl I hope Doyle turns up at the White House in full uniform

I love his size, his potential and that TD catch was gorgeous lol I'm all IN..of course I root for them all to be Great.........I do love how the Attitude and swagger this team has, the chemistry and comradery elevates the play of ALL of them top to bottom. I really think so.

[Buffalo Boy]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To be fair the line did a great job on that play. Allen sits in the original pocket behind a "wall" for 4 seconds. He then moves into a second "pocket" to the right of the main pocket not because he is pressured but because he is trying to find a path to an open receiver because the Pats DBs did a great job plastering. He sits in the secondary pocket for another 3 seconds and it is only 7 seconds into the play that pressure finally emerges and forces Allen out towards the sideline. 

 

If you want the oline to block for 7 or 8 seconds on every play I think that is an unrealistic expectation. 

    I would like to see Josh run less and become more of a pocket / drop back passer.

    LOVE LOVE LOVE his legs and ability but it is a double edged sword.

    I watched Cam get run into the ground and not be protected from himself by Shula.

    Josh is already a much better passer than Cam. But, he also is reckless and it only takes ONE hit and he’s got an injured throwing shoulder. 
   I want him here in 10 years with one of the strongest arms in the league. An O line and a rushing attack that doesn’t rely on him is what I would like.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, appoo said:

Pretty impressive in season overhaul honestly

 

We started out with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Ford

C - Morse

RG - Feliciano

RT - Williams

 

We're finishing with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Bates

C - Morse

RG - Williams

RT- Brown

 

Three new starting positions, and both Bates and Brown look like plus players at their spots. That means you can go cheap/young for the other starting guard, swing and depth. 

 

 

Like a first round tender. He's well worth 4.7M against the cap

 

I'm thinking they tender him with right of first refusal at $2.4M.  No need to overpay unless someone else offers a huge deal, which I don't see.

 

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Sure, at the very least we can keep exactly what we have, which is finally starting to gel and click. But I do think there is room for improvement at OG, and certainly Center.

 

Jordan Davis in the 1st, Best Center on the Board in the 2nd, and I think we're good!

 

I can't see Davis lasting that long.  And I think CB might have to be the pick.

[appoo]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Sure, at the very least we can keep exactly what we have, which is finally starting to gel and click. But I do think there is room for improvement at OG, and certainly Center.

 

Jordan Davis in the 1st, Best Center on the Board in the 2nd, and I think we're good!

Would have to think CB is going to be a high priority this offseason - higher than OLine. In fact it's probaly prior #1 and #2. 

 

I would think it's CB, CB, Guard, DT, safety (need someone to groom at safety)

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    I would like to see Josh run less and become more of a pocket / drop back passer.

    LOVE LOVE LOVE his legs and ability but it is a double edged sword.

    I watched Cam get run into the ground and not be protected from himself by Shula.

    Josh is already a much better passer than Cam. But, he also is reckless and it only takes ONE hit and he’s got an injured throwing shoulder. 
   I want him here in 10 years with one of the strongest arms in the league. An O line and a rushing attack that doesn’t rely on him is what I would like.

 

He already is one of the best pocket passers. Running is part of his game and he is much smarter about it that when he first came into the league. I don't have any more worries when he runs than with OL and DL players rolling up on him in the pocket

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    I would like to see Josh run less and become more of a pocket / drop back passer.

    LOVE LOVE LOVE his legs and ability but it is a double edged sword.

    I watched Cam get run into the ground and not be protected from himself by Shula.

    Josh is already a much better passer than Cam. But, he also is reckless and it only takes ONE hit and he’s got an injured throwing shoulder. 
   I want him here in 10 years with one of the strongest arms in the league. An O line and a rushing attack that doesn’t rely on him is what I would like.

 

But that play to Knox was nothing to do with the line. That was Josh being Josh. He wasn't flushed out by pressure, in fact he was very well protected. The alternative to scrambling there is him just giving up on the play when nobody has uncovered after 5 or 6 seconds and throwing it away. I don't think you will ever take that gunslinger out of Josh. Even if he had a wall of offensive linemen in front of him. He is always going to do everything it takes to make a play. It's just who he is. Nothing coaches or teammates do will change that IMO. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

I can't see Davis lasting that long.  And I think CB might have to be the pick.

 

1 minute ago, appoo said:

Would have to think CB is going to be a high priority this offseason - higher than OLine. In fact it's probaly prior #1 and #2. 

 

I would think it's CB, CB, Guard, DT, safety (need someone to groom at safety)

 

I think Davis will be gone before we pick at #32 as well, but just saying.

 

A month or so ago, I agreed that we would look CB early, and we still might. However, since then, our Defense hasnt missed a beat with Tre gone and Wallace and Jackson stepping up. Taron is locked into the Nickel spot, so we are good there. And already have some depth with Lewis and even Neal.

 

Re-sign Wallace, and I don't see a need to spend a 1st on CB. I'd rather dedicate early picks to the trenches. Get WR and DB depth later.

 

I especially don't think we need TWO early CBs. We're 4 good starters deep right now.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, JÂy RÛßeÒ said:

Cody Ford = rare Beane draft miss.  Brown is the one.

 

 

Shows the difference between drafting for immediate need(Ford)..........and taking the BPA(Brown).

 

The Ford pick should have been DK Metcalf............but Brown is an athletic freak at RT that is similar to how Metcalf was testing.     Brown tested thru the roof for a tackle.

 

 

[BuffaloBill]

3 hours ago, Dan Darragh said:

If you're like me you've already watched this play 50 times but notice what Spencer Brown does on this play: after the play was busted and Josh was scrambling, Spencer flattened Van Noy (53) not once but twice. Spencer is the unsung hero of this magnificent play.

 

click here to watch

 

 

Flattened twice is a bit of a stretch … blocked well once then took him down once is a better description. However, Brown has been a very pleasant surprise this season.

[Buffalo Boy]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But that play to Knox was nothing to do with the line. That was Josh being Josh. He wasn't flushed out by pressure, in fact he was very well protected. The alternative to scrambling there is him just giving up on the play when nobody has uncovered after 5 or 6 seconds and throwing it away. I don't think you will ever take that gunslinger out of Josh. Even if he had a wall of offensive linemen in front of him. He is always going to do everything it takes to make a play. It's just who he is. Nothing coaches or teammates do will change that IMO. 

    Saw this stat cited in another thread.

Josh has been under pressure not solely due to the O line but they have played a large part.

    The play calling and the design of the offense have also contributed.

    In no universe is Allen not in a better position with a better O line and an O that isn’t predicated on him pulling rabbits out of his hat but that has an above average rushing attack which uses RBs and not him.

    This  doesn’t change him or his ability to scramble and improvise it simply puts him in a better position.

[Warcodered]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Shows the difference between drafting for immediate need(Ford)..........and taking the BPA(Brown).

 

The Ford pick should have been DK Metcalf............but Brown is an athletic freak at RT that is similar to how Metcalf was testing.     Brown tested thru the roof for a tackle.

 

 

I think part of the thinking there was if he couldn't make it at tackle he'd still be a really good guard, turned out neither of those things has been true.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    Saw this stat cited in another thread.

Josh has been under pressure not solely due to the O line but they have played a large part.

    The play calling and the design of the offense have also contributed.

    In no universe is Allen not in a better position with a better O line and an O that isn’t predicated on him pulling rabbits out of his hat but that has an above average rushing attack which uses RBs and not him.

    This  doesn’t change him or his ability to scramble and improvise it simply puts him in a better position.

 

Oh for the most part this year the oline has been a mess. No debate from me on that. That wasn't my argument at all. My point was simply you cited a play where the oline did a great job as evidence of them doing a poor job. 

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, BearNorth said:

Why that never wrong oracle PFF.  I see 311 on the Bills website.

I think regardless of what his real weight is, he puts on another solid 15-20. He has the frame to handle it by farrrrrrrrr.  With strength coordinator, state of the art facility, access to the best food on the planet, dietician, there really isnt a rookie, at any position, that shouldnt put on some weight after their first season.... exception being they came in fat, diff story there.

[appoo]

37 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

I think Davis will be gone before we pick at #32 as well, but just saying.

 

A month or so ago, I agreed that we would look CB early, and we still might. However, since then, our Defense hasnt missed a beat with Tre gone and Wallace and Jackson stepping up. Taron is locked into the Nickel spot, so we are good there. And already have some depth with Lewis and even Neal.

 

Re-sign Wallace, and I don't see a need to spend a 1st on CB. I'd rather dedicate early picks to the trenches. Get WR and DB depth later.

 

I especially don't think we need TWO early CBs. We're 4 good starters deep right now.

I think Wallace and Dane have proven to be acceptable against average NFL passing attacks. Tre tore his ACL against the Saints. Since then:

 

NE (Wind Game N/A)

Tampa (1), Brady ,elite WRs - 383, 2 TDs

Carolina (29), Cam, average WRs  - 156 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

NE (14), Mac, poor WRs - 145, 2 INT

ATL (16), Ryan, elite TE, poor WRs - 197

NYJ (20), Blondie, poor WRs - 87, 1 TD

NE (14), Mac, poor WRs - 232, 2 TDs, 2 INTs

 

You have to give these guys credit for playing well against average to poor opposition, but that Bucs game was interesting - for a half they played their worst football, for another half some of their best in the secondary. But reality is that haven't played against good QBs or WRs other than the Tampa game since Tre went down. 

 

 

[Doc]

48 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I think Davis will be gone before we pick at #32 as well, but just saying.

 

A month or so ago, I agreed that we would look CB early, and we still might. However, since then, our Defense hasnt missed a beat with Tre gone and Wallace and Jackson stepping up. Taron is locked into the Nickel spot, so we are good there. And already have some depth with Lewis and even Neal.

 

Re-sign Wallace, and I don't see a need to spend a 1st on CB. I'd rather dedicate early picks to the trenches. Get WR and DB depth later.

 

I especially don't think we need TWO early CBs. We're 4 good starters deep right now.

 

It all depends on how much Wallace is looking for.  He's started 52 games, since the 9th game of his rookie year (minus the 4 he missed last year) and been paid about $1M/year on average.  I can see him being offered a ton by someone else and accepting it and I wouldn't blame him.  As for Tre', we have no idea what shape he'll be in going into the 2022 season, much less by April (i.e. draft time).

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

Pretty impressive in season overhaul honestly

 

We started out with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Ford

C - Morse

RG - Feliciano

RT - Williams

 

We're finishing with 

 

LT - Dawkins

LG - Bates

C - Morse

RG - Williams

RT- Brown

 

 

I had put this in another thread, but it goes here. Where the Bills are right now with the OL is much different than most of the year. Their top 5 offensive linemen are Dawkins, Bates, Morse, Williams, and Brown. They have now played 18 games this year:

 

- They have had Dawkins, Morse, Williams, Brown (4 of top 5) playing together in half of those games (9).

- In those 9 games they averaged 416 YPG, 154 rushing YPG, 32 PPG, and went 6-3

- The three losses were to the Titans 34-31, Bucs 33-27 OT, and mother nature (Pats 14-10)

 

- They played 9 games with at least one of those four missing (3 or less of top 5)

- In those 9 games they averaged 358 YPG, 110 rushing YPG, 26 PPG, and went 6-3

- The three losses were to the Steelers 23-16, Jags 9-6, and Colts 41-15

 

- They have had Dawkins, Bates, Morse, Williams, Brown (top 5) playing together in only 4 games

- In those 4 games they averaged 427 YPG, 194 rushing YPG, 35 PPG, and went 4-0

 

 

                                                            Games              YPG              Rush YPG           PPG

With less than 4 of their best OL          9                   359                 110                     26

With 4 of their best OL                          9                   416                  154                    32

With their 5 best OL                              4                   427                  194                    35

 

[appoo]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

It all depends on how much Wallace is looking for.  He's started 52 games, since the 9th game of his rookie year (minus the 4 he missed last year) and been paid about $1M/year on average.  I can see him being offered a ton by someone else and accepting it and I wouldn't blame him.  As for Tre', we have no idea what shape he'll be in going into the 2022 season, much less by April (i.e. draft time).

Thankfully it was an ACL injury rather than an achilles injury, and a pretty straightforward ACL tear. That's a lot more predictable and I think you'll see Tre pretty close back to full strength early in the season. He was never defined by his speed anyways, as he's always had just above average speed for an NFL corner

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, appoo said:

Thankfully it was an ACL injury rather than an achilles injury, and a pretty straightforward ACL tear. That's a lot more predictable and I think you'll see Tre pretty close back to full strength early in the season. He was never defined by his speed anyways, as he's always had just above average speed for an NFL corner

 

I am hoping.  But still expect to lose Wallace.

[appoo]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I am hoping.  But still expect to lose Wallace.

Yep, Wallace is going to be one of the first to be sacrificed thanks to Josh Allen's contract - which I'm all for. Isiah McKenzie might be the 2nd. 

[LABILLBACKER]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I am hoping.  But still expect to lose Wallace.

I think with the massive improvement of the OL over these last 4 games, we have the luxury to draft a CB in the 1st round. I've said for 2 years please give Bates a chance. And now look at the numbers. We still need OL help but we can go out and find CB2 insurance if Levi leaves.  

[Carmel Corn]

Love the guy!  Hoping he has another contingent coming from Lenox, IA going to Arrowhead to root for the Bills!

[Patrick Duffy]

LOVE this big rookie!! His presence is a large part of the major improvement in OL play.

[freddyjj]

3 hours ago, njbuff said:

It might be a little surprising that Williams is playing so well at guard.

 

Part of the reason he is in Buffalo and not Carolina is because he was terrible at G when Carolina asked him to play there.

https://www.cover1.net/daryl-williams-signing-adds-experience-and-versatility-to-bills-o-line/

 

In fairness to Daryl Williams last year in CAR, he played 2 positions that were new to him, LT and LG predominantly.  Given his girth and slow recovery from knee surgery in 2018 he was ill suited for either position.  He is a good RG because he is seldom asked to move.

Edited January 18, 2022 by freddyjj
add a link

[In Summary]

4 hours ago, BearNorth said:

Trent Williams, the gold standard amongst tackles, is 6-5 320. Brown is 6-8 290, does he get bigger in the weight room? or with Josh's mobility do we keep him long and mean.

You could see more weight on him but he seems to understand how to position his tall frame so as not to get bulled over.  His balance and foot speed are good from what I see.  Has a unique roll in that he's part of Allen's frequent roll-out to his right.  

[Da webster guy]

I like how he chilled out and refocused after his stupid penalty game a few weeks back.  He manned up, took the blame and let his play speak for itself.

 

I was worried a little bit after that game, wondering if the kid is just immature and wild (he is to some extent) and that's why he dropped to the 3rd round because otherwise his power, length and ability to move is so impressive you'd think he would have gone much higher. 

 

I agree with the earlier poster that Beane has made up for his Ford whiff by drafting big 79.  He is going to be up against Ingram this week, who I still can't believe ended up in KC.   That dude can wreck your backfield worse than Frank Clark did last year.   Gilliam and Knox will need to be ready to help out.

[Rubes]

The mobility he has for a man his size is just crazy. And he's strong, and has a mean streak. A lot to like about him, he just now needs to improve and refine his game.

 

[Dan Darragh]

6 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   I said after the first Pats game, when some where giving him too much grief,  that he has “ Want to”.

Does this mean that Cody Ford has "Lackawanna"?

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Yup.. imagine being the Jets with Mekhi Becton.  It happens.  

 

We're set for a long time with Dawkins/Brown as bookend tackles.  I absolutely love how they're using Doyle as the 6th lineman/jumbo TE.

 

We'll find out a lot about this OL on Sunday.  If they give Allen time, he should be able to light up KC. 

 

What about Doyle as 6th lineman/jumbo TE/Jumbo FB?

 

He is a really big guy and even Allen can hide behind him on fakes.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Warcodered said:

I think part of the thinking there was if he couldn't make it at tackle he'd still be a really good guard, turned out neither of those things has been true.

 

Which is how Wyatt Teller got traded.

 

Ford struggled at tackle in OTA's and camp..........Nsekhe was the backup plan at RT........so Nsekhe and Ford became the RT/RG combo in preseason and Beane suddenly had an unexpected starter log-jamming the guard position.  

 

So he had to choose between his higher ceiling second year OG in Teller....who had been the starter at the end of the previous season........... or one of their more "versatile" OL.    He chose Ike Boettger........who at the time had been training at all 5 OL positions(though he is now viewed as a guard only,  by fans at least).

 

The Cody Ford pick was a very costly case of drafting for immediate need.  

 

"We need a tackle" - Brandon Beane, Bills Embedded

 

I don't think Ford is incapable of becoming a good guard........perhaps it will take the tantalizing promise of free agency after the 2022 season to coax the effort, preparation and focus necessary out of him.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Coach Tuesday]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Which is how Wyatt Teller got traded.

 

Ford struggled at tackle in OTA's and camp..........Nsekhe was the backup plan at RT........so Nsekhe and Ford became the RT/RG combo in preseason and Beane suddenly had an unexpected starter log-jamming the guard position.  

 

So he had to choose between his higher ceiling second year OG in Teller....who had been the starter at the end of the previous season........... or one of their more "versatile" OL.    He chose Ike Boettger........who at the time had been training at all 5 OL positions(though he is now viewed as a guard only,  by fans at least).

 

The Cody Ford pick was a very costly case of drafting for immediate need.  

 

"We need a tackle" - Brandon Beane, Bills Embedded

 

I don't think Ford is incapable of becoming a good guard........perhaps it will take the tantalizing promise of free agency after the 2022 season to coax the effort, preparation and focus necessary out of him.

 

 

 

 

Ford cost them DK Metcalf and Wyatt Teller - truly unprecedented.

 

EDIT: never mind I see you addressed Metcalf upthread.  Shouldn’t be reading threads in reverse.

 

Wrt Morse, his play on Saturday reset my mindset on him - that was one of the best games by a center I can ever remember watching.  Maybe he was just playing inspired because of his newborn, but if he can sustain that level of play for another year or two we don’t need to upgrade there.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

6 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Need to find Morse's replacement, and 1 or 2 more Guard prospects, and we should be ready to roll.

 

Totally agree

[Coach Tuesday]

13 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Totally agree

I don’t know if we need to upgrade on Morse after what I saw him do on Saturday.

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I don’t know if we need to upgrade on Morse after what I saw him do on Saturday.

 

He is one tippy-tap to the helmet away from having to retire. And he plays in the interior of the line. It's a matter of when, not if.

 

Need to get his eminent replacement on the roster now.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

16 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I don’t know if we need to upgrade on Morse after what I saw him do on Saturday.

 

Couple of things.  He has concussion issues; luckily no issues this year.  He has 1 yr left on a hefty contract that will pay him roughly 6.9 mil in 2022.   Doubt the Bills would franchise tag him.  Maybe he stays for another contract, but if not, we should try and groom an eventual replacement.  Be proactive and not reactive is my thought.