EDIT: Total cost to taxpayers? Bills select sports firm to represent ownership in building new open air stadium in OP, targeted for 2025

[PrimeTime101]

52 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Gotcha he has the gift of gab

Nice ... Bet that is interesting the characters you see in a liquor store

 

lol indeed

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

 

Buffalo is far from the snowiest NFL City, or the coldest... It is the windiest

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is also incorrect - Buffalo is the snowiest NFL city typically by a lotupwards of 20 inches more than other NFL cities - especially in Orchard Park compared to downtown..  It is also the windiest NFL city as you stated.

 

Buffalo also sees even more snow starting in January than Nov and December - meaning as the season extends 17th and eventually 18th regular season game and additional playoff rounds - the chances of getting hit by a blizzard or super windy game goes up.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

This is also incorrect - Buffalo is the snowiest NFL city typically by a lotupwards of 20 inches more than other NFL cities - especially in Orchard Park compared to downtown..  It is also the windiest NFL city as you stated.

 

Buffalo also sees even more snow starting in January than Nov and December - meaning as the season extends 17th and eventually 18th regular season game and additional playoff rounds - the chances of getting hit by a blizzard or super windy game goes up.

I do agree with the expanding season, we get our worst weather in January and after

[purple haze]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

that explains it better.. OK.. To my point... These forums are not the only place a poll has been at.. Channel 4 and 7 did a poll. Twitter did multiple polls. They were all pretty split between Roof, Retractable and no roof

Those polls don’t matter.  The polls that matter are the ones the Pegula’s did.  And the most important question wouldn’t be roof/no roof.  How much would you be willing to pay for tickets is the more important question.  Folks want something for nothing.  Put a roof on ticket prices will go up more than they already will.
 

Can most fans afford an exponential hike in ticket prices?  Ultra-expensive PSL’s?  There are reasons outside of preference that would lead  the Pegula’s to build an open air joint.  That reason is cost compared to projected returns.  Does them no good to propose a facility that most of their fans can’t afford to enter or that the available local corporate sponsorships won’t help to pay off the debt.  It makes no sense for the state/county either.

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Of course, and it's alot harder to make a coherent argument over typing then with words

 

I do understand everything you're saying... Of course somebody in Hamburgs opinion matters just as much as somebody in Buffalo.. 

 

And I understand your argument about jobs... Woman always have more white collar jobs than men... Which is the only reason why I specifically mentioned that the City of Buffalo itself still is very blue collar.. the city and men still do work Blue collar jobs

 

I don't confuse that with the suburbs, which are more white collar... Their opinions should matter too

 

Growing up going to the rock pile I still see the city itself as Blue collar people... The hundreds of thousands of people living in The burbs different story

 

I could just differentiate the burbs from the city .. and yes we've been playing football here for a long time and we have a tradition of outdoor football... Which is why I think it should continue, we have a longstanding tradition

 

I mean No harm at all.. even UB basketball TBT team calls themselves Blue collar U

 

 

 

 

Look - I get it and don’t disagree and I am pretty sure it will end up as an open air stadium in OP because of money.  
 

I just feel that is based on maintaining what we have - low cost point and tailgating and although both are important- I think it is short sighted thinking to just build a newer version of what we have rather than what will better suit our needs for the next 50 years.  
 

The fan base, the sport, and the climate are all changing and now is the opportunity to plan a future to help an aging population in a snow belt climate - when it might just be a better product to watch at home.

[PrimeTime101]

16 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Those polls don’t matter.  The polls that matter are the ones the Pegula’s did.  And the most important question wouldn’t be roof/no roof.  How much would you be willing to pay for tickets is the more important question.  Folks want something for nothing.  Put a roof on ticket prices will go up more than they already will.
 

Can most fans afford an exponential hike in ticket prices?  Ultra-expensive PSL’s?  There are reasons outside of preference that would lead  the Pegula’s to build an open air joint.  That reason is cost compared to projected returns.  Does them no good to propose a facility that most of their fans can’t afford to enter or that the available local corporate sponsorships won’t help to pay off the debt.  It makes no sense for the state/county either.

I agree but your about an hour late on the conversation bro read back a ways.

[purple haze]

15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Look - I get it and don’t disagree and I am pretty sure it will end up as an open air stadium in OP because of money.  
 

I just feel that is based on maintaining what we have - low cost point and tailgating and although both are important- I think it is short sighted thinking to just build a newer version of what we have rather than what will better suit our needs for the next 50 years.  
 

The fan base, the sport, and the climate are all changing and now is the opportunity to plan a future to help an aging population in a snow belt climate - when it might just be a better product to watch at home.

From studies done by some climate change researchers Buffalo temps/weather will be warmer in general and particularly more mild in the winter than it is now.  
 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by purple haze

[LabattBlue]

35 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Growing up going to the rock pile I still see the city itself as Blue collar people... The hundreds of thousands of people living in The burbs different story

Just curious...if you "grew up" going to the Rockpile for Bills games, that would put you in your 60's.  Is that accurate?

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

Exactly. Not to mention our franchise QB who we're hoping to have around for 10+ years has stated how he loves playing indoors & how great his feel/control throwing the ball is in indoor venues. 

 

So having our QB play in the best possible environment for 50%+ of games each season would be a huge advantage for us. And I know some outdoors stadiums like Arrowhead & Seattle are super loud, having a fanbase like ours + a dome would likely be even louder. 

 

My most recent experience in a dome was the Texans vs Bills in Allen's rookie season, and even though it was 1/3 empty, it was much louder than the last 2 times I was in Buffalo. Made me imagine how crazy it would sound if it was packed with a more diehard fanbase like the Bills have.

The loudest stadiums are open. Despite popular belief, a roof doesn't actually help if your goal his maximum decibels.

[Rochesterfan]

14 minutes ago, purple haze said:

From studies done by some climate change researchers Buffalo temps/weather will be warmer in general and particularly more mild in the winter than it is now.  
 

 

 

What I have seen is milder with more extreme changes - so warmer followed by more severe blizzards and higher winds at higher frequency.  Much like hotter weather in the south with more hurricanes and dryer weather in the Midwest with more tornadoes.
 

My guess would be we could see a few years with wonderful weather, but potentially more times like the blizzard that caused use to move a NYJ game to Detroit.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[LabattBlue]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I was a toddler the last season tho I made it.. but the field was still in use for many years as a football field , and I played many football games in that stadium 

 

So I actually did grow up playing football in the rock pile

You are constantly moving the goalposts.  You implied that you grew up watching the Bills in the Rockpile, when in reality you didn't at all.  I apologize as you seem to be a nice guy, but it is impossible to have a conversation with you when you are weaving your tales.

 

I really need to move on from this thread...at least until the stadium plans have been announced, and there is something definitive to discuss.

Edited August 21, 2021 by BTB

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, BTB said:

You are constantly moving the goalposts.  You implied that you grew up watching the Bills in the Rockpile, when in reality you didn't at all.  I apologize as you seem to be a nice guy, but it is impossible to have a conversation with you when you are weaving your tales.

 

I really need to be move on from this thread...at least until the stadium plans have been announced, and there is something definitive to discuss.

This whole time I've been pretty constant that I just want the bills to stay.. I wasn't trying to play games with you

 

And when you're getting asked 50,000 questions by people and you're answering them at different times a lot of things just don't come out smooth.. I'm answering three different questions from three different people at the same time and trying to do quickly .. 

 

I've been literally replying to things all day as quickly and efficiently as possible.. and my only points were that I believe the city's blue collar and does embrace elements ... I've stayed in Buffalo my entire life.. could have left a dozen times.. but I love this city and it's my home... 

 

There was never any ill will from me.. I haven't bashed anybody..  we're all Bills fans and we love the team  

 

I've been getting ridiculed for calling Buffalo a Blue collar city.. I'm sorry if I didn't get my point across perfectly and there was no Ill will ... and I'm definitely not here just to troll and stir stuff up ...I'm Here to talk football 

 

The last thing I want to do is argue with fellow Bills fans

 

Go bills

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Rochesterfan]

33 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Those polls don’t matter.  The polls that matter are the ones the Pegula’s did.  And the most important question wouldn’t be roof/no roof.  How much would you be willing to pay for tickets is the more important question.  Folks want something for nothing.  Put a roof on ticket prices will go up more than they already will.
 

Can most fans afford an exponential hike in ticket prices?  Ultra-expensive PSL’s?  There are reasons outside of preference that would lead  the Pegula’s to build an open air joint.  That reason is cost compared to projected returns.  Does them no good to propose a facility that most of their fans can’t afford to enter or that the available local corporate sponsorships won’t help to pay off the debt.  It makes no sense for the state/county either.

 

Can most current fans afford big increases - the answer is maybe - if the price was significantly higher and had PSLs - some would find a way - just like they have done at other stadiums - I mean some Jets fans found ways to deal with massive increases and PSLs and some were priced out.

 

The question is if 30,000 people that currently are ticket holders got priced out - could you replace them with 25,000 people with more disposable income and a higher willingness to park in the Bills lots and buy food and drinks in the stadium?

 

Would you see the transformation to a more corporate clientele that would prefer different amenities including a roof and less tailgating - similar to how the number of people getting into club seats has increases.  
 

If we want to keep the same tailgating and table jumping crowds that spend more money on food and beverages outside the stadium - then you build cheap and publicly funded.  
 

If you want to change the clientele and the game day experience- then you change the stadium - you go smaller, roofed stadium and charge higher ticket prices and PSLs and you provide a more personal experience like in the club seats for more fans.  
 

The Pegula’s seem to have decided that trying to maintain the current experience is what they think is best for now - so that is great.  Now people just need to expect a larger percentage of public funding to maintain the lower ticket prices.

[gomper]

https://news.littlesis.org/2021/08/20/the-iraq-war-spinmeister-and-high-powered-lobbyists-behind-pegulas-stadium-shakedown/

[GunnerBill]

The article could have done with some sub editing. So many copy mistakes it is barely readable. 

[gomper]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The article could have done with some sub editing. So many copy mistakes it is barely readable. 

True, but the content doesn't change.  The more we know about this situation,  the less we know. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, gomper said:

True, but the content doesn't change.  The more we know about this situation,  the less we know. 

 

I say this as both a) someone who believes Billionaires who want nice things should pay for them themselves and b) a former journalist: That article is a hatchet job. It makes no attempt to actually discern what is going on. When I add that to how poorly it is written I don't consider it worth much. What it does do, in fairness to it, is make me want to go and find some more credible reporting. So far I have largely ignored the stadium stuff but I probably need to begin engaging with it. 

[gomper]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I say this as both a) someone who believes Billionaires who want nice things should pay for them themselves and b) a former journalist: That article is a hatchet job. It makes no attempt to actually discern what is going on. When I add that to how poorly it is written I don't consider it worth much. What it does do, in fairness to it, is make me want to go and find some more credible reporting. So far I have largely ignored the stadium stuff but I probably need to begin engaging with it. 

Fair enough.  However,  if this has any merit, we could be looking at a long messy road. Just a thought. 

[machine gun kelly]

It was always going to be messy.  They are using the media on both sides as a tool to spark fear, etc. for their own ends.  They’ll figure it out.

[hondo in seattle]

I don't see the 'terrifying' concern.

 

The Pegulas hired football people (Beans, McD) to run football operations.   They hired PR people to do PR.   They hired negotiators to negotiate.

 

[BillnutinHouston]

22 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I don't see the 'terrifying' concern.

 

The Pegulas hired football people (Beans, McD) to run football operations.   They hired PR people to do PR.   They hired negotiators to negotiate.

 

 

Exactly.  And they hired lobbyists.  Lobbyists!  Oh my.

 

Yawn!

[Doc Brown]

It's a far left website who hates fracking.  This might get moved to the ppp section but the writer obviously has an agenda.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

It's a far left website who hates fracking.  This might get moved to the ppp section but the writer obviously has an agenda.

 

So I am just to the left of Stalin as a rule and I found it a bit one sided even for my tastes.

[LeGOATski]

 

WNYers have to pay for entertainment and someone else is going to profit from that entertainment??? 😱

[HOUSE]

Very nice rocks in front of the stadium

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

3 hours ago, gomper said:

This is terrifying people

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/profile/265-beerball/

 

[MJS]

Where did you find that? Do you go to the least reputable sources you can possibly find? Same old conspiracies and demonizing the Pegulas for clicks.

[JMF2006]

OMG we are going to war with IRAQ?

 

Thankfully I am too old to be drafted

In negotiations you never start off where you want to end up

 

Throw 100% out there and settle for 50/50 thats how its done

[HOUSE]

2 minutes ago, JMF2006 said:

OMG we are going to war with IRAQ?

 

Thankfully I am too old to be drafted

 

You are never too old

[JMF2006]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

It's a far left website who hates fracking.  This might get moved to the ppp section but the writer obviously has an agenda.

 

They might hate football too

49 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Very nice rocks in front of the stadium

 

You know why they are there?

 

Its not for decoration......

 

You would need to have an M1 Abrams to get through that......its to protect the Stadium and fans from a terrorist attack with a vehicle.

 

They also block OB Drive with large 5-10 ton trucks and the parking lot aisles that lead directly to the stadium.

Edited August 21, 2021 by JMF2006
large trucks

[HOUSE]

9 minutes ago, JMF2006 said:

 

They might hate football too

 

You know why they are there?

 

Its not for decoration......

 

You would need to have an M1 Abrams to get through that......its to protect the Stadium and fans from a terrorist attack with a vehicle.

 

They also block OB Drive with large 5-10 ton trucks and the parking lot aisles that lead directly to the stadium.

 

The rocks are still very nice. 😁

[racecitybills]

Another hatchet job from the people who kept cuomo in office for years.  
 

[Don Otreply]

I’m thinking GunnerBill has it right, when an obviously intelligent guy like GB calls the article a hatchet job you know that it is exactly that.  
 

as they say “Clicks” pay the bills… 

 

In actuality there is zero new news in this article, just the normal NFL threats / attacks on tax payers and fans, goes to show everyone how the league feels about its customers,   imo, we tax payers should put up signs all over Orchard park and Buffalo telling the NFL and the Pegula’s how we feel about this situation….,  but most folk just do what the corporate overlords insist on, because most folk are wusses…, 

 

Not go bills in this instance…

Edited August 21, 2021 by Don Otreply

[prissythecat]

4 hours ago, gomper said:

True, but the content doesn't change.  The more we know about this situation,  the less we know. 

 

More like the more effort the that someone exerts to try to read the drivel in the article,   the more time they wasted that they can never get back.

[Doc]

The "Pegula floated a proposal for the public to fund 100% of the cost of a new stadium" claim has already been debunked.  He/they neither floated it (a county exec did) nor did he/they ever expect the public to fund 100% of it (as if this wasn't already obvious, and I think they expect to pay 25%).  It's a negotiation with both sides wanting to be on the hook for as little as possible. 

 

They'll get something done because losing a billionaire who has done a lot for the area, as well as losing 2 professional sports teams from the area, would be devastating.  And lest anyone forget, a good chunk of the $1.4B they paid for the team went to Buffalo. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Doc

[Rochesterfan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I say this as both a) someone who believes Billionaires who want nice things should pay for them themselves and b) a former journalist: That article is a hatchet job. It makes no attempt to actually discern what is going on. When I add that to how poorly it is written I don't consider it worth much. What it does do, in fairness to it, is make me want to go and find some more credible reporting. So far I have largely ignored the stadium stuff but I probably need to begin engaging with it. 

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I am just to the left of Stalin as a rule and I found it a bit one sided even for my tastes.

 

45 minutes ago, JMF2006 said:

OMG we are going to war with IRAQ?

 

Thankfully I am too old to be drafted

In negotiations you never start off where you want to end up

 

Throw 100% out there and settle for 50/50 thats how its done

 

Based upon some people I respect calling this a one-sided hatchet job - I will not give clicks to the original article - I will wait for a reputable source like Warrow to write a true piece.  
 

I agree with JMF that this is negotiating tactics- I just don’t see it landing near 50/50.  I firmly believe the Pegula’s are making a huge concession going open air and in OP and that is their opening volley in payment.  
 

Basically we are saving you nearly 50% of the cost on the stadium we could demand - downtown and retractable roof - so we expect you to contribute about 1.2 billion publicly and we will get 200 million from NFL loans and pay this off.  
 

I think the final figures will be close to that - probably 1 Billion public, 200-300 million NFL and a couple 100 million from the Pegula’s covering cost overruns and additional amenities they want.

 

I think there will be a lot of bickering and it will be messy, but some of it will come from the infrastructure bill being passed and now is the perfect time to get this done.  

[Doc]

Whether to put a roof on the stadium is bigger than just football.  The most important question is "if there is a roof, will the stadium be used more during the year?"  If the answer is "yes," then a roof should be installed and the county should foot the bill for the roof since it will be their stadium and they'll get more money by being able to use it more.

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, purple haze said:

From studies done by some climate change researchers Buffalo temps/weather will be warmer in general and particularly more mild in the winter than it is now.  
 

 

 

I will also say that warmer temperatures will keep the lake thawed more and when the cold polar wind currents shift down and go over the warmer, moist, thawed Great Lakes - we get lake effect snow in the Buffalo area.

 

Warmer temperatures will not actually necessarily decrease the snowfall in Buffalo because of where most of our snow comes from.  Warmer temperatures will most likely lead to more cases of blizzard like conditions that last for short periods of time as wind patterns shift. 

[Philly McButterpants]

Wow - major league sports in America - who knew??

[machine gun kelly]

Rochester, why aren’t you TERRIFIED?