I hope Star and Ford have both been powerlifting

[TheBeaneBandit]

Having both these players make a difference would be a great start to making a weakness a strength. With Ford, he has come off an offseason surgery both his years so I really hope he can come in a new man and vindicate his draft status.

[Bangarang]

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

Ford is a question mark. He was improving at OG. But he had a long way to go. He will be able to focus on OG this offseason which should help him. Jury still out. 

 

Star is what he is. We were better with him though so maybe he's better than we think. Carolina was similar. When they lost Star their run defense suffered, but when Star played most thought he was replaceable. 

[Doc]

Yes Star was a loss.  As for Ford, I'm not ready to write-him-off just yet.  I just hope they put him at one guard spot and that's it.

[warrior9]

12 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Really hope they aren’t counting on either of them...

Well, literally 90% of defenses Star has been on have been top 10

[Brennan Huff]

I would love to get rid of Star’s contract

[JohnNord]

Remember what McDermott about needing to be physical and the desire to run the ball better.  I think could have implications toward Ford being part of the plan. 

 

It’s possible that he could make John Feliciano expendable - as much as they love him, I don’t know if they’ll break the bank to keep him.   While he has been decent, it’s clear the middle of the line has been an issue this season.

 

As far as Star, I think they see a role for him on the roster as a rotational player.  I think they will want to find another option specifically at 1 Tech DT to keep Oliver at 3 Tech.  
 

 

5 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

I would love to get rid of Star’s contract

I think they have to wait 1 more year before the cap hit becomes reasonable 

[BigdaddyinOrlando]

With Star back or someone w similar skill set in there that w free Oliver up to maximize his skill set and take his game to next level and keep Edmunds  clean to make more plays as well. JMO

[TheFunPolice]

I hope both have been bulking up and watching Tom Brady highlight montages and internalizing the rage they cause.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

49 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

I would love to get rid of Star’s contract

This year was supposed to be the time to get rid of him but him opting out pushed that back a year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Having both these players make a difference would be a great start to making a weakness a strength. With Ford, he has come off an offseason surgery both his years so I really hope he can come in a new man and vindicate his draft status.

I really hope Ford is getting stronger. He said before last season started he hit his high weight in bench press at like 305 lbs. The Lineman on my high school team were benching that or more. 

He needs to focus on one position and master the technique. He’s been working out at RG and RT in previous offseason. Then he got moved to LG. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Not at the table Karlos

[947]

44 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Remember what McDermott about needing to be physical and the desire to run the ball better.  I think could have implications toward Ford being part of the plan. 

 

It’s possible that he could make John Feliciano expendable - as much as they love him, I don’t know if they’ll break the bank to keep him.   While he has been decent, it’s clear the middle of the line has been an issue this season.

I think it's more likely that Feliciano comes back is the starting Center. Morse could be a cap casualty, he has been no better than league average overall & is paid like a Pro Bowler. Feliciano is a better OC than OG in my mind.

[Kwai San]

Amazing to me that so few people see cause and correlation of the Bills decline in D when Star left......IF he comes back healthy it WILL be an imporvement BUT that is predicated on him coming back in top form......a training camp will really help the Bills define some positions and issues.....imho.

[JohnNord]

24 minutes ago, 947 said:

I think it's more likely that Feliciano comes back is the starting Center. Morse could be a cap casualty, he has been no better than league average overall & is paid like a Pro Bowler. Feliciano is a better OC than OG in my mind.

That’s possibly too.  It could also signify a more “physical” OL while saving quite a bit on the cap.  Morse is a good Center in terms of pass blocking but doesn’t move people back

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Cut Morse. Bring back Feliciano to play center in 2021. Draft a true center to develop. Play Ford at RG.

[eball]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Cut Morse. Bring back Feliciano to play center in 2021. Draft a true center to develop. Play Ford at RG.

 

Umm, no.  Morse isn't going anywhere.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Umm, no.  Morse isn't going anywhere.

You sure about that? Bloated contract for below average player and a healthy scratch after clearing the concussion protocol.

They can bring back Feliciano on the cheap, draft the center of the future, and clear cap space for 2022 and 2023.

[TheBeaneBandit]

49 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

This year was supposed to be the time to get rid of him but him opting out pushed that back a year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really hope Ford is getting stronger. He said before last season started he hit his high weight in bench press at like 305 lbs. The Lineman on my high school team were benching that or more. 

He needs to focus on one position and master the technique. He’s been working out at RG and RT in previous offseason. Then he got moved to LG. 

Yeah, Im hoping that was due to shoulder surgery cause thats pretty bad for an NFL lineman.

[eball]

4 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

You sure about that? Bloated contract for below average player and a healthy scratch after clearing the concussion protocol.

They can bring back Feliciano on the cheap, draft the center of the future, and clear cap space for 2022 and 2023.

 

The difference between Morse's value and Feliciano's isn't really close.  I know we all like Feliciano because he's a gregarious "tough guy" but the answer is not to lose the 1st or 2nd best player on your line.

[BADOLBILZ]

29 minutes ago, Kwai San said:

Amazing to me that so few people see cause and correlation of the Bills decline in D when Star left......IF he comes back healthy it WILL be an imporvement BUT that is predicated on him coming back in top form......a training camp will really help the Bills define some positions and issues.....imho.

 

The cause and correlation in the Bills defensive rank regression was a MUCH tougher schedule and a loss of pass rush.

 

They struggled integrating some new pieces early but ultimately when they wanted to stop the run they did.

 

They held the 2,000 yard rusher Henry to his lowest output of the regular season and they shut down the NFL's top rushing attack in the divisional round.

 

The 2019 defense had Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson in contract years and they totaled 16.5 sacks.

 

Not signing them was the right move.........they basically did nothing with their new teams.........but that pass rush production was not replaced.

 

Star screwed them by making them use Butler at 1T.........he was supposed to replace Jordan Phillips in the 3T rotation..........but that's about the extent of the impact.

 

Butler achieved the exact same results from the 1T that Star did.   He absorbed double teams and couldn't get off blocks to make plays just like Star.

 

   

[LABILLBACKER]

It will be nice to have a motivated Star back next year (probably his final year). That should free up Oliver.  Ford on the other hand is an enigma? Don't know if he will ever develop as a RG (assuming Mongo goes to C and we retain Daryl).

[Ethan in Cleveland]

21 minutes ago, eball said:

 

The difference between Morse's value and Feliciano's isn't really close.  I know we all like Feliciano because he's a gregarious "tough guy" but the answer is not to lose the 1st or 2nd best player on your line.

Morse is far from first or second best lineman. Dawkins, Williams are better and at worst its a tie between Feliciano and Morse at center. Add in the money issue and he is going to be cut. Morse left KC and there has been not talk about their oline being hampered by it. He is average at best and being paid like a multi year probowler. Cut him, save money in 2022 and 2023 and draft a true center.

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

 

I like Star to help get Ed Oliver back to playing a more pass rushing position. I think Star could move the needle. Ford will compete with Ike to start at guard but given how well Ike played I don't think he makes much more of an impact but Ford at worst adds depth to the O-line. Whomever isn't starting at LG goes to the bench and gives the O-line starting guard play off the bench unless Mongo walks and they have to play both guys at the guard position. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Am I correct in assuming Star would not have gotten a ring since he opted out had we won the SB?

[eball]

5 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Morse is far from first or second best lineman. Dawkins, Williams are better and at worst its a tie between Feliciano and Morse at center. Add in the money issue and he is going to be cut. Morse left KC and there has been not talk about their oline being hampered by it. He is average at best and being paid like a multi year probowler. Cut him, save money in 2022 and 2023 and draft a true center.

 

I'm not sure very many NFL talent evaluators would agree with you on this.  But whatever, to each his own.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

It will be nice to have a motivated Star back next year (probably his final year). That should free up Oliver.  Ford on the other hand is an enigma? Don't know if he will ever develop as a RG (assuming Mongo goes to C and we retain Daryl).

 

 

The 1T position between the guard and center forces a double team.

 

Whomever the Bills used at 1T got the double team this season.......Phillips, Butler, Oliver, Zimmer....

 

The 3T lines up on the outside shoulder of the opposite side guard.

 

The positioning of the 3T makes it very difficult to double team that player...........counterproductive in most cases.

 

Ed Oliver simply needs to work on his game more this offseason........and the Bills need to get some better pass rushers on the rest of the DL.

 

1T plugger was not the problem with this defense.

 

 

[KOKBILLS]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

 

Who knows with Ford? The injury puts an even bigger cloud on his future.

 

But I have zero doubt Star would have helped a lot this year. If only for the obvious continuity he would have brought. I very much hope he's back, and at 100% in 2021. They really need that 1 tech to play along side of Oliver. It's a really big need for this D...If not Star they better figure something out...😎

[thurst44]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

I doubt either of those guys moves the needle much of at all. 

Star always gets this tude from a large part of the fanbase and I'm downright sick of it. When he was brought in as a FA in 2018, one of the big reasons given was b/c QBs were stepping up into the lack of pressure up the middle for short passes and tight ends were feasting. That was one of the biggest rationales I heard for his contract: he would stop tight ends. In 2017, we gave up the 6th most yards to tight ends. In 2020, the most. In Star's two years, we gave up the fewest yards to tight ends. Yet so few people seem to be putting two-and-two together that maybe, just maybe, Star's not the garbage player we've judged him as. 

 

I could be wrong and I know correlation is not causation, but I do know enough to say I don't know. Just like people here who tore him down don't know, but I will say that I do have some numbers that suggest my claim could be correct. I'd like to see Cover 1 or someone similar do a deep dive to prove my point or convince me I'm wrong.

 

Star's coming back regardless, but I'm willing to bet that his return will mean that two other first-rounders will have monster years (as others have said in this thread), as Oliver's free to make plays and Edmunds is not a sitting duck in coverage. If Milano is here, Star'll likely improve him too, but it sounds like he may be out the door.

 

So much vexation and so many calls for purging on a team that had the second best record in the NFL, finished the regular season at a 9-1 clip, demolishing most teams, then won two playoff games before losing on the road to the defending SB Champions and likely again SB Champs who were also methodically moving through the league. It was a weird season. I'm thankful for what transpired last year, but also excited to see what this defense can do with regular pre-season, practice, and a mountain in the middle, paired with an explosive offense that's also likely to be even better next year.

Edited January 27, 2021 by thurst44

[colin]

33 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

Star always gets this tude from a large part of the fanbase and I'm downright sick of it. When he was brought in as a FA in 2018, one of the big reasons given was b/c QBs were stepping up into the lack of pressure up the middle for short passes and tight ends were feasting. That was one of the biggest rationales I heard for his contract: he would stop tight ends. In 2017, we gave up the 6th most yards to tight ends. In 2020, the most. In Star's two years, we gave up the fewest yards to tight ends. Yet so few people seem to be putting two-and-two together that maybe, just maybe, Star's not the garbage player we've judged him as. 

 

I could be wrong and I know correlation is not causation, but I do know enough to say I don't know. Just like people here who tore him down don't know, but I will say that I do have some numbers that suggest my claim could be correct. I'd like to see Cover 1 or someone similar do a deep dive to prove my point or convince me I'm wrong.

 

Star's coming back regardless, but I'm willing to bet that his return will mean that two other first-rounders will have monster years (as others have said in this thread), as Oliver's free to make plays and Edmunds is not a sitting duck in coverage. If Milano is here, Star'll likely improve him too, but it sounds like he may be out the door.

 

So much vexation and so many calls for purging on a team that had the second best record in the NFL, finished the regular season at a 9-1 clip, demolishing most teams, then won two playoff games before losing on the road to the defending SB Champions and likely again SB Champs who were also methodically moving through the league. It was a weird season. I'm thankful for what transpired last year, but also excited to see what this defense can do with regular pre-season, practice, and a mountain in the middle, paired with an explosive offense that's also likely to be even better next year.

 

 

bro, thanks for that, i did not know that.

 

i don't think it's just star, but i think the idea is the DL get work done in 18 and 19, and that made the near impossible jobs of our LBs much much easier, so they could mess with TEs more effectively.  

 

I think going from star to pure trash this year was a big drop off, but addison is toast, shack was better, and phillips while not being a great one gave us bulk and some juice.

 

edmunds got confused in pass coverage and bit like an angry dog on run fits all season, but a tweet from erik turner showed how the goal line run from KC for a TD had butler basically vacate his gap and just be a silly fat tool doing nothing, leaving 2 gaps for the RB and edmunds had to guess.  

 

i also recall carolina losing lucky luke for some of a season, and they didnt' drop off too much, but they lost hardy (the vicious kracken!!!) and they REALLY fell off.  more than anything, we need a brutal d line, and aside from star and our goofs stepping up (oliver is the best of them, he has to get better, phillips needs to get a whole lot better, and zimmer has to show something to keep a roster spot, and epinesa of course) we need just a nasty disgusting pass rushing force.

[warrior9]

4 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

I would love to get rid of Star’s contract

Why?

[BigPappy]

All I know is that the run game on both sides of the ball regressed without both of these men. Is that a coincidence? Time will tell if they are both back next year. That said, as someone else pointed out, Carolina's run defense regressed when they lost Star when they thought he was replaceable. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

With Star back or someone w similar skill set in there that w free Oliver up to maximize his skill set and take his game to next level and keep Edmunds  clean to make more plays as well. JMO

I mean that’s what Beane said too, if you believe your point and the GM over those TBD experts that know Star is bad. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Remember what McDermott about needing to be physical and the desire to run the ball better.  I think could have implications toward Ford being part of the plan. 

 

It’s possible that he could make John Feliciano expendable - as much as they love him, I don’t know if they’ll break the bank to keep him.   While he has been decent, it’s clear the middle of the line has been an issue this season.

 

As far as Star, I think they see a role for him on the roster as a rotational player.  I think they will want to find another option specifically at 1 Tech DT to keep Oliver at 3 Tech.  
 

 

I think they have to wait 1 more year before the cap hit becomes reasonable 

To the bolded what about Harrison Phillips? he seemed to get better toward the end of the year as he continues to ramp up following the torn ACL.

[JohnNord]

3 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

To the bolded what about Harrison Phillips? he seemed to get better toward the end of the year as he continues to ramp up following the torn ACL.

 
He has 1 year left on his contract.  I can see them giving him a chance to compete but I don’t think they’ll rely on him.  If they can make a move at DT, I think they will.  
 

If not, I see them bringing in more true 1 tech players as competition.  Beane said they were “a little light” on the DL.

[Brennan Huff]

33 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Why?

It’s a lot

[warrior9]

40 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

It’s a lot

Not sure if you watched the games this year...... he was missed.

[Brennan Huff]

7 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Not sure if you watched the games this year...... he was missed.

Was there a season?

[warrior9]

6 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

Was there a season?

I can't help you if you haven't watched the game and/or don't understand the important of a true 1T in this defense.

[gobills404]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Morse is far from first or second best lineman. Dawkins, Williams are better and at worst its a tie between Feliciano and Morse at center. Add in the money issue and he is going to be cut. Morse left KC and there has been not talk about their oline being hampered by it. He is average at best and being paid like a multi year probowler. Cut him, save money in 2022 and 2023 and draft a true center.

Morse is better than Feliciano and it isn't close. He's one of the best pass blocking centers in football and was great in 2019 as a puller but for some reason they stopped using him like that in the run game.

[dbfla10]

Any one that doesnt think star isnt worth it doesnt understand football... He usually takes on 2 olineman freeing up backers. Look how often Edmunds got caught in the wash, or was met by a guard at 4yds. Thats because the dline couldnt take on blockers. Star is basically an olineman on D his job is to "block" as many dlineman as possible, making a tackle here and there.   Not many players are that selfless and willing to do the dirty work like Star.

[Punching Bag]

6 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

I would love to get rid of Star’s contract

 

Star already did a restructure/cut for Bills. Not likely.

5 hours ago, Kwai San said:

Amazing to me that so few people see cause and correlation of the Bills decline in D when Star left......IF he comes back healthy it WILL be an imporvement BUT that is predicated on him coming back in top form......a training camp will really help the Bills define some positions and issues.....imho.

 

You do not want him to go on Quinton Spain training regiment?