The only thing that can set Josh back, the only thing that can cause him to regress

[Victory Formation]

Is if Daboll gets a head coaching gig somewhere else and McDermott doesn’t fill the cupboards after Daboll leaves.. It’s looking more n more like Daboll will be gone this offseason.. And Sean McDermott being the defensive minded coach that he is will be charged with the task of finding a new OC and offensive staff.. This will likely determine if coach McD will be here for 5 more years or if he’ll be gone in two.. Will McD embellish the job of being a HC, or will he prove to simply be a glorified DC? Obviously you’d like to see him grow into the role of HC the way Bill Belichick did in New England and master both sides of the ball.. But will McDermott have the knowledge and insight to replace our offensive staff next year in the event that our coaching staff gets gutted? Will he be able to keep the system the same for Josh? Will he hire the next Brian Daboll? Or will he hire the next Rick Dennison? This could very well determine the length of Sean McDermott’s stay in Buffalo..

[oldmanfan]

Remind me - who hired Daboll?

[Victory Formation]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Remind me - who hired Daboll?

The same person who hired Rick Dennison.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

You never know.

 

We were all verklempt when Pettine took off and it turned out Schwartz was an improvement

 

BTW, I think a number of things could cause Josh to regress, but hopefully he'll avoid all of them.  Seems to be bolted on straight.

 

[ClemsonBills]

Josh seems like a qb who is growing into someone who won't necessarily need the best OC. If he is as good as we like to think, his talent and the talent around him will take care of itself. I am not saying that coaching doesn't matter. But he has the arm talent, is reading defenses, and can throw on the run with the best of them. Any competent OC will find a way to use these abilities Josh has.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

The same person who hired Rick Dennison.

 

Do you really think Dennison was his first choice?  A rebuilding team with Taylor at QB is not an attractive destination.

[Dkollidas]

I think they fill it from within. And I think Ken Dorsey gets the job as the OC.

 

I know a lot of the league is trending towards offensive coach matched with a QB (Mahomes-Reid, Rodgers-LaFleur, Goff-McVay).

 

I do believe no small part of this offense’s success is due to Daboll. But this is Allen’s 3rd year in the system, Daboll and Dorsey have been here the entire time together, Dorsey knows the system and knows Allen. 
 

But I believe overall the better setup is to have a strong QB run your offense, and a coach who can coach up the defense, like McDermott. I do believe he’s also growing as a head coach right in front of our eyes and that this organization has a top-5 Head Coach/Quarterback combo and in my estimation THAT is the greatest precursor to long term success if well managed (which I also believe we are with Beane as GM as well).

[RunTheBall]

I don’t buy this argument at all. Daboll definitely deserves credit in Josh’s development but Josh is well on his way. He’s not going to all of a sudden forget how to read a defense or not recognize man vs zone. He’s not going to backslide in mechanics because Daboll isn’t there to call some plays. I’d love for Daboll to stay, I think he’s improving as an OC like the rest of the team is improving, but if he moves on we will be fine. Josh is far enough along in his development that changing coordinators will not result in a regression. The OC is important, but franchise QBs can adapt.

[Victory Formation]

Just now, Dkollidas said:

I think they fill it from within. And I think Ken Dorsey gets the job as the OC.

 

I know a lot of the league is trending towards offensive coach matched with a QB (Mahomes-Reid, Rodgers-LaFleur, Goff-McVay).

 

I do believe no small part of this offense’s success is due to Daboll. But this is Allen’s 3rd year in the system, Daboll and Dorsey have been here the entire time together, Dorsey knows the system and knows Allen. 
 

But I believe overall the better setup is to have a strong QB run your offense, and a coach who can coach up the defense, like McDermott. I do believe he’s also growing as a head coach right in front of our eyes and that this organization has a top-5 Head Coach/Quarterback combo and in my estimation THAT is the greatest precursor to long term success if well managed (which I also believe we are with Beane as GM as well).

I think McDermott has huge potential.. but he can simply no longer be a DC.. He has to have a great understanding of offense as well to be successful long-term.

[Punching Bag]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Remind me - who hired Daboll?

 

Same person who fired most of staff first year and hired Frick (OC) and Frack (WR coach).

I was on record of saying at time he did too much dumping of coaches and scouts.

 

I know he is more experienced on offense now and can ask Dorsey for advice but he needs a strong and creative OC.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, RunTheBall said:

I don’t buy this argument at all. Daboll definitely deserves credit in Josh’s development but Josh is well on his way. He’s not going to all of a sudden forget how to read a defense or not recognize man vs zone. He’s not going to backslide in mechanics because Daboll isn’t there to call some plays. I’d love for Daboll to stay, I think he’s improving as an OC like the rest of the team is improving, but if he moves on we will be fine. Josh is far enough along in his development that changing coordinators will not result in a regression. The OC is important, but franchise QBs can adapt.

 

I think the last offseason was the really critical one to have Daboll here for. Josh had made a big leap year 1 to year 2 and then forcing him to learn a new system year 3 could have risked that. After this year and the confidence Josh will have from it to be honest I'm not sure it matters nearly as much. Sure Josh would love Daboll to stay, but if he goes I doubt it really risks Josh's development. 

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

My prediction is Dabol will get a HC job at some point but will flame out ala Josh McDaniels. 

 

Then he will be back in 3 years as our Coordinator again. 

 

I also think We will offer him a boat load of money to try and keep him here at all costs..

Edited December 8, 2020 by loveorhatembillsfan4life

[buffalover4life]

I just hope we avoid Matt Nagy and maybe hire from within. Nagy just seems to out coach himself.

 

I could see it happening with him being in the Reid Coaching tree and McD love for hiring X head coaches for coordinators. 

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think the last offseason was the really critical one to have Daboll here for. Josh had made a big leap year 1 to year 2 and then forcing him to learn a new system year 3 could have risked that. After this year and the confidence Josh will have from it to be honest I'm not sure it matters nearly as much. Sure Josh would love Daboll to stay, but if he goes I doubt it really risks Josh's development. 

Look at Wentz.

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

I think McDermott has huge potential.. but he can simply no longer be a DC.. He has to have a great understanding of offense as well to be successful long-term.

He hasn’t been a DC for four years. He’s been a HC. 
 

He’s on record multiple times saying he spends as much time with every unit of the team... because he is the head coach... and that is what they do.

 

He leads all of the men on the roster.... because he is the head coach.

[GoBills808]

Josh made Daboll and not the other way around

[ProcessYaDigg]

Just now, Victory Formation said:

Look at Wentz.

Wentz doesn't have near the talent JA has.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Victory Formation said:

Look at Wentz.

 

Wentz was never this good.

[Dkollidas]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

I think McDermott has huge potential.. but he can simply no longer be a DC.. He has to have a great understanding of offense as well to be successful long-term.

Agreed. And I think that comes with time. Belichick has had 20+yrs in New England alone to become that kind of coach. Andy Reid is one of those coaches as well to me, but more offensive oriented, but has also had a long time to reach that level. 
 

Next year will be year 5 for McDermott, and i believe if they lose Daboll it will necessitate McDermott becoming a bigger part of the offensive brain trust. His overall aggressiveness (willingness to going for it on 4th for example) makes me think he’ll be a valuable mind to the offensive game plan and execution. 

[Chandler#81]

If Dabolls’ sincerity is to be believed, he ain’t goin’ nowhere. 23 years as a Coach in the AFCE and finally able to move back home where he can visit his grandparents while directing the thrilling Bills Offense is, IMO, his dream job. Don’t know/haven’t heard that he actually seeks to be a HC but I’d be surprised if so. 

Part of me wishes Sean hadn’t promoted Frazier to AHC as Brian is more deserving and worthy of the ‘protection’ the title entails from wannabe poachers. If he does aspire to move away from WNY again and become a HC, then Best Wishes! I just don’t think he’d prefer it -e$pecially if the Bill$ $weeten the pot $ome..

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

He hasn’t been a DC for four years. He’s been a HC. 
He’s on record multiple times saying he spends as much time with every unit of the team... because he is the head coach... and that is what they do.

He leads all of the men on the roster.... because he is the head coach.

 

This.  I think there were times, his first year and a bit his 2nd, when he did focus more on the D and left the offense alone.

 

That's appropriate in a leader IMO -

Delegate

Let your people perform to their abilities

Determine by results what kind of help and guidance they need

Give it.

 

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Josh made Daboll and not the other way around

 

I don't think you can separate the two at this point.  They are busy making each other.  That's the main hope I have for keeping Daboll here - that he'll regard Josh as his masterwork in progress and won't be able to resist staying to see how it all turns out.

[klos63]

17 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Is if Daboll gets a head coaching gig somewhere else and McDermott doesn’t fill the cupboards after Daboll leaves.. It’s looking more n more like Daboll will be gone this offseason.. And Sean McDermott being the defensive minded coach that he is will be charged with the task of finding a new OC and offensive staff.. This will likely determine if coach McD will be here for 5 more years or if he’ll be gone in two.. Will McD embellish the job of being a HC, or will he prove to simply be a glorified DC? Obviously you’d like to see him grow into the role of HC the way Bill Belichick did in New England and master both sides of the ball.. But will McDermott have the knowledge and insight to replace our offensive staff next year in the event that our coaching staff gets gutted? Will he be able to keep the system the same for Josh? Will he hire the next Brian Daboll? Or will he hire the next Rick Dennison? This could very well determine the length of Sean McDermott’s stay in Buffalo..

jesus, really?

[GoBills808]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I don't think you can separate the two at this point.  They are busy making each other.  That's the main hope I have for keeping Daboll here - that he'll regard Josh as his masterwork in progress and won't be able to resist staying to see how it all turns out.

I think you can- ask yourself which you'd rather lose?

[MJS]

We'll have OC candidates lining up to come coach this explosive offense. We'll get the cream of the crop.

 

I am not concerned.

[Beast]

10 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

I think McDermott has huge potential.. but he can simply no longer be a DC.. He has to have a great understanding of offense as well to be successful long-term.

I laugh when I see takes like yours. If you think McDermott doesn’t have his hands in every aspect of this organization on and off the field when it concerns on-field matters, you haven’t been either, 1-paying attention or 2- you don’t understand what has been built the last four years.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I think you can- ask yourself which you'd rather lose?

 

Not a useful question.  

 

There are more potentially successful OCs around than there are potential star QB who have already flashed ability, and the former are far easier to acquire - just interview and show money vs. draft, cap ramifications, etc., so of course we'd rather lose Daboll than Josh.

 

Ask yourself how Josh would look under Adam Gase or Doug Marrone or any OC who wasn't 1) committed to teaching and helping him learn 2) committed to tailoring an offense to his best strengths

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Look at Wentz.

 

Wentz is not anywhere near the QB Allen is.

[Captain Caveman]

16 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

I don’t buy this argument at all. Daboll definitely deserves credit in Josh’s development but Josh is well on his way. He’s not going to all of a sudden forget how to read a defense or not recognize man vs zone. He’s not going to backslide in mechanics because Daboll isn’t there to call some plays. I’d love for Daboll to stay, I think he’s improving as an OC like the rest of the team is improving, but if he moves on we will be fine. Josh is far enough along in his development that changing coordinators will not result in a regression. The OC is important, but franchise QBs can adapt.

I think Daboll gave Josh 2 easy TD passes last night.  Now maybe he still makes those happen on a less well designed playcall, but I don't think you can overstate how much of an impact Daboll had on last night's game.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not a useful question.  

 

There are more potentially successful OCs around than there are potential star QB who have already flashed ability, and the former are far easier to acquire - just interview and show money vs. draft, cap ramifications, etc., so of course we'd rather lose Daboll than Josh.

 

Ask yourself how Josh would look under Adam Gase or Doug Marrone or any OC who wasn't 1) committed to teaching and helping him learn 2) committed to tailoring an offense to his best strengths

I think Allen would have succeeded under Gase or Marrone or any other OC similar to how Mahomes or Rodgers or Wilson would have equally succeeded under any given circumstances. 

 

This isn't Jared Goff we have here. This is a legit freak show at QB.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I think Allen would have succeeded under Gase or Marrone or any other OC similar to how Mahomes or Rodgers or Wilson would have equally succeeded under any given circumstances. 

 

This isn't Jared Goff we have here. This is a legit freak show at QB.

 

I disagree.  Allen was very raw clay who needed to be persuaded to change his preparation habits and rewire his reactions in games.  He needed someone who was willing to reach him and teach him.  (I really think Daboll and Josh are like the story of the mule trained with loving-kindness).   He would have flashed for sure, but not clear he'd be where he is today.  OTOH, with a different hand on the throttle, he might have developed sooner.

 

But I'll leave it there, since it's an unprovable proposition, just as it's unproveable how Mahomes would have been under a different coach or Rodgers, or how they would have played if thrown into the fray halfway through their first game rookie year.

 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Captain Caveman said:

I think Daboll gave Josh 2 easy TD passes last night.  Now maybe he still makes those happen on a less well designed playcall, but I don't think you can overstate how much of an impact Daboll had on last night's game.

The playcalling and execution on O was a beautiful sight.  Our best offensive performance imo.  

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think Allen would have succeeded under Gase or Marrone or any other OC similar to how Mahomes or Rodgers or Wilson would have equally succeeded under any given circumstances. 

 

This isn't Jared Goff we have here. This is a legit freak show at QB.

I think this is the worst take of the day.  You are completely underestimating the effect of good coaching..... and bad 

Edited December 8, 2020 by NewEra

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I disagree.  Allen was very raw clay who needed to be persuaded to change his preparation habits and rewire his reactions in games.  He needed someone who was willing to reach him and teach him.  (I really think Daboll and Josh are like the story of the mule trained with loving-kindness).   He would have flashed for sure, but not clear he'd be where he is today.  OTOH, with a different hand on the throttle, he might have developed sooner.

 

But I'll leave it there, since it's an unprovable proposition, just as it's unproveable how Mahomes would have been under a different coach or Rodgers, or how they would have played if thrown into the fray halfway through their first game rookie year.

 

It's one of those unknowables for sure, but I would wager that Allen would find much more success than Daboll if they were eventually to go their separate ways.

[dollars 2 donuts]

What the heck are you worried about?

 

The Bills were just as good with Tom Bresnahan when Ted Marchibroda left to be head coach of...

 

...um...

 

...OK, point taken.  

[ProcessYaDigg]

8 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

He hasn’t been a DC for four years. He’s been a HC. 
 

He’s on record multiple times saying he spends as much time with every unit of the team... because he is the head coach... and that is what they do.

 

He leads all of the men on the roster.... because he is the head coach.

This is spot on.  At the end of the day, coordinators come and go.  Having a long tenured HC is the most important aspect of a team.  Just take a look at successful QBs from past and present.  Do you think they've maintained the same OC throughout their careers?  No!  When Bieniemy leaves the Cheifs for a HC job, do you think Mahomes' production will drop off?  Probably not.  Why?  Because he has a great HC in Reid.  Same can be said with Brees, Brady, Kelly, Marino, and the list goes on.  One thing those types of QBs have in common, they didn't have to deal with a head coaching carousel.  Yes, i do believe that Daboll is the biggest reason for the development and success of Allen, but it'll ultimately lie with McD to maintain that upward trend of Allen's success and i'm not worried about that at all.  McD is truly turning into a well-rounded coach, because as you mentioned, he spends time with each unit of the team.

[njodogg]

I believe Beane will pay him almost HC money in an attempt to get him to stay. If that fails, I wouldn't be surprised if Dorsey is given a serious look. 

[ProcessYaDigg]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I disagree.  Allen was very raw clay who needed to be persuaded to change his preparation habits and rewire his reactions in games.  He needed someone who was willing to reach him and teach him.  (I really think Daboll and Josh are like the story of the mule trained with loving-kindness).   He would have flashed for sure, but not clear he'd be where he is today.  OTOH, with a different hand on the throttle, he might have developed sooner.

 

But I'll leave it there, since it's an unprovable proposition, just as it's unproveable how Mahomes would have been under a different coach or Rodgers, or how they would have played if thrown into the fray halfway through their first game rookie year.

 

Well said.

[Mat68]

I have faith Buffalo keeps the same offense.  Now a differant play caller changes tendencies but if Allen is who I think he is, than he will create some coaches.  Allen will attract talented coaches, and Allen will make coaches look better and smarter than reality says they are.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Losing Daboll will definitely impact Allen, Daboll play calling and the way he is setting up plays is top notch this year. The deciding factor will be the age old adage, money over happiness. If some team gives him 7 to 9 mil I think he's gone, Daboll is a very good OC and can develop a QB. There will be a record number of HC jobs available, Daboll will be in one of them. Daboll is probably only making around 1 mil a year as OC, there is no way you can pass up making 7 to 9 mil, I know I couldn't.

[Royale with Cheese]

They are going to do what's best for Josh Allen...period.  He's the franchise QB who they are about to pay a ton of money to...he's priority #1.  They are not going to bring in someone Allen isn't comfortable with.  The thing is, Dorsey might make the most sence.

2 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Losing Daboll will definitely impact Allen, Daboll play calling and the way he is setting up plays is top notch this year. The deciding factor will be the age old adage, money over happiness. If some team gives him 7 to 9 mil I think he's gone, Daboll is a very good OC and can develop a QB. There will be a record number of HC jobs available, Daboll will be in one of them. Daboll is probably only making around 1 mil a year as OC, there is no way you can pass up making 7 to 9 mil, I know I couldn't.

 

You don't know how it will impact Allen.  A good QB is a good QB.  He will be in year 4 next year so he's a vet.

 

Money will have nothing to do with it, it's the HC opportunity.  Everyone wants that step up and they'll get paid for the level increase.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It's one of those unknowables for sure, but I would wager that Allen would find much more success than Daboll if they were eventually to go their separate ways.

 

That is true because top end Quarterbacks are harder to find that top end playcallers. I am with Hapless. The relationship has been symbiotic. Daboll certainly hasn't "made" Josh Allen, but I think the developed him the right way. They threw stuff at him, they never scaled it back they let him see things a first time and get it wrong and make mistakes and learn. Now you still need both Josh's natural talent and his incredible drive to get better for it to pay off.... but it was the right way to develop him and that is exactly why they went to a Brian Daboll type who has tried to mold his scheme around Allen and the talent rather than a scheme first guy who imposes his scheme. Allen has also benefitted from the same OC and a consistent development plan his first 3 years. Not that he couldn't have overcome a scheme change and new verbiage and everything else but it certainly has greatly increased his comfort level that he understands this offense to the finer details now. He is so in control now at the line and that is a guy who just totally understands the system and what he is being asked to do. Josh is outstanding, but the Bills have done a good job developing him too and Daboll has been a part of that.