In a copy cat league...how does John Brown change what chiefs can do?

[Hebert19]

We can assume that after titans game that a lot of teams are going to sit in a zone with a spy and dare josh to have 15 play scoring drives...but what does John brown do to change that?

 

Does his ability to get vertical mean we see the backers deeper and he draws a safety to his side opening the crossing routes and giving Beasley and Davis more space underneath?

 

Thats my thought but curious what you guys think we can do to make the chiefs regret dropping back into zone. 

[Nextmanup]

As you're saying, I think his value is in stretching the field and pushing the back of the D further away...opens up more space in shorter and interim route areas.

 

I can only imagine how much respect a DB has to give a guy with Brown's speed....one misstep and he's past you and you aren't going to be able to catch back up.  The FS has to keep an eye on him and respect his speed too.

 

Brown can improve our passing game without even catching a pass.

 

 

 

 

[SCBills]

I think Brown opens up more of the intermediate stuff, which is Allen’s wheelhouse and the Titans took away because only Diggs was taking them deep. 
 

I think a bigger thing, and something I believe Allen acknowledged, is that he just needs to be more patient and take what’s given.  
 

The short underneath stuff was open all game, because, even without Brown, you can only take away so much... they banked on Allen not being patient enough to take what was given, and until the second half, they were right.  
 

Unfortunately, once we started adjusting, Allen had a long drive culminating in a pick and then the next drive we scored, but with a defense that was completely useless, it was too little, too late. 
 

Back to Brown though, I don’t think the Titans can execute the same exact game-plan with him out there.  Similar, yes, and Allen needs to adjust and become more patient..   But with Brown on one side, and Diggs on the other, the defense gets stretched out and as a result, more intermediate passing lanes open.  

Side note:  I think Browns speed is incredibly important to what Allen thrives on.  Makes me think we may want to draft another burner early on in the draft.  At least, I would...

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by SCBills

[thebandit27]

When teams go to heavy zone coverage, Brown can threaten the deep border as well as anyone. He forces the safeties to widen or the corners to play some bail technique, which creates more space for the underneath stuff.

 

Aside from that, Allen trusts him, and he knows how to work back to the QB when Allen scrambles.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

We can assume that after titans game that a lot of teams are going to sit in a zone with a spy and dare josh to have 15 play scoring drives...but what does John brown do to change that?

 

Does his ability to get vertical mean we see the backers deeper and he draws a safety to his side opening the crossing routes and giving Beasley and Davis more space underneath?

 

Thats my thought but curious what you guys think we can do to make the chiefs regret dropping back into zone. 

 

Well, one thing in the first half...there were times when the Titans were giving Josh's checkdown options SOoooooooOOoo freakin' much cushion that if he looked to them more, he could have had some big chunk plays.   Josh's known reluctance to take the checkdown must be part of the "book" on him around the league.  Knox went from the LOS 15 yds downfield on one play where Allen hit him.  There were a couple other plays where Josh did pull the trigger but he threw it flat and I'm pretty sure it was tipped.  There were more, especially early on, where he forced it rather than take the quick checkdown.  Hopefully that's a point of emphasis to him this week.

 

If KC does something similar and Josh sees those open guys and hits them accurately enough to allow YAC, they'll move out of their zone.  Teams change their plans PDQ when they're getting burned for 8-15 ypa.

 

I'm not great at this kind of analysis but I actually don't think the Titans had a spy on Josh a lot of the time.

 

[Fr. Jerk]

He should come up with another cool smoke dance, ya dig?

 

[SCBills]

Another piece of the puzzle is what we do on first/second down. 
 

Allen was constantly put in 2nd/3rd and long in this game due to our inability to get positive yardage on early down runs and the out of character penalties we dealt with all night.  
 

-No Smoke

-Playing from behind all game

-Allen’s unwillingness to check down

-Running game struggles

 

It was all a perfect storm, and we can normally overcome the meh running game, but when you take away Smoke and add in playing from behind, it just seemed to be the perfect storm for the Titans to execute a game plan that invited Allen to check down.  

[Victory Formation]

He opens up the deep stuff, the intermediate stuff and he opens up the other half of the field opposite to Stefon Diggs. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Some of our receivers need to make some plays and get some yards after catch. It’s great that Beasley and others can settle into a pocket in a zone. But I’d love to see some catches and our receivers making a few guys miss and breaking off some YAC. You’d think a guy like McKenzie would do a nice job of that. It will all of a sudden make any team question giving the Bills “the underneath stuff” when we can turn an open 7-yard pass into a 20-yard gain. 

 

I also have to think this is pretty much what Brady and the pats have done for years— dink and dunk down the field. Seems to be effective— just have to make plays when get into the red zone. 

[IgotBILLStopay]

Diggs was drawing so much coverage. having Smoke means teams can’t just focus on Diggs. They hv to pick their poison.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Good topic. So far everyone is spot on. Allen needs to be patient and check down and keep moving the chains.  Brown and Diggs just need to find the spots in the intermediate zone areas. And don’t forget about Knox,Beasley, and Singletary. Brown makes them all better even if Brown only gets a handful of targets.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Some of our receivers need to make some plays and get some yards after catch. It’s great that Beasley and others can settle into a pocket in a zone. But I’d love to see some catches and our receivers making a few guys miss and breaking off some YAC. You’d think a guy like McKenzie would do a nice job of that. It will all of a sudden make any team question giving the Bills “the underneath stuff” when we can turn an open 7-yard pass into a 20-yard gain. 

 

I also have to think this is pretty much what Brady and the pats have done for years— dink and dunk down the field. Seems to be effective— just have to make plays when get into the red zone. 

 

This is where the Bills missing a quality receiving TE is a gap to them.  Gronk killed teams with YAC for years.  So does PEDelman

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

We can assume that after titans game that a lot of teams are going to sit in a zone with a spy and dare josh to have 15 play scoring drives...but what does John brown do to change that?

 

 

This is what the Bills defense was designed to do, for whatever reason this year it isn't working. McDermott wants to make teams run or pass for 5 yards at most all the way down the field. He counts on the other team eventually making a mistake to force a punt or turnover. That's what the Titans did to us. You beat that defense in two ways - either you take the top off them or you play mistake free football all the way to the endzone. The Bills didn't have anyone to take the top off and made a ton of mistakes. That's why our offense had their first bad game of the year. If other defenses use that same strategy against us Allen will have to be patient, the line and receivers need to not make so many mistakes, and yes having Brown back will help a lot.

Edited October 17, 2020 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is what the Bills defense was designed to do, for whatever reason this year it isn't working. McDermott wants to make teams run or pass for 5 yards at most all the way down the field. He counts on the other team eventually making a mistake to force a punt or turnover. That's what the Titans did to us. You beat that defense in two ways - either you take the top off them or you play mistake free football all the way to the endzone. The Bills didn't have anyone to take the top off and made a ton of mistakes. That's why our offense had their first bad game of the year. If other defenses use that same strategy against us Allen will have to be patient, the line and receivers need to not make so many mistakes, and yes having Brown back will help a lot.

 

You missed something.  Allen has to Take the ***** Checkdown, especially the one that allows the YAC!

[HappyDays]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You missed something.  Allen has to Take the ***** Checkdown, especially the one that allows the YAC!

 

That's what I meant when I said he has to be patient. Against the Raiders I thought he did a great job finding his check down when needed, for some reason against the Titans he got away from that. It's funny to talk about a Bills QB that doesn't check the ball down enough but it is definitely a flaw in his game as of right now.

[billsfan89]

Brown should help, but it's up to Josh to take what the defense is giving him and Daboll and the staff to make sure he does that. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's what I meant when I said he has to be patient. Against the Raiders I thought he did a great job finding his check down when needed, for some reason against the Titans he got away from that. It's funny to talk about a Bills QB that doesn't check the ball down enough but it is definitely a flaw in his game as of right now.

 

Too true.  I hope he has refocused on making his passing precise under pressure.

[YoloinOhio]

Maybe too simplistic but Gabriel Davis as WR 4 in 10 Personnel is a difficult matchup for any defense, so adding Brown back into the mix would be ideal 

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

Brown should help, but it's up to Josh to take what the defense is giving him and Daboll and the staff to make sure he does that. 

It’s Josh’s powerful arm and aggressiveness which makes our offense special. In those first four wins we weren’t exactly taking five to ten yard chunks so it’s a fine line in what you’re asking. I think we’re trying to make a unique and special offense that features Josh and with that growing pains are going to occur. I want to see Josh at his absolute best not a copy of some other QB.

[Hebert19]

So.  Flip the question.  No sammy.  Missing their guard.   How do we replicate what raiders did to kC?

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

So.  Flip the question.  No sammy.  Missing their guard.   How do we replicate what raiders did to kC?

 

They would need to get pressure with 3-4 guys.  I don't really see that happening.  Mahomes and KC are going to get their points.  The question is can our offense keep up and can we win the mistake battle.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

They would need to get pressure with 3-4 guys.  I don't really see that happening.  Mahomes and KC are going to get their points.  The question is can our offense keep up and can we win the mistake battle.

I’m not sure the Raiders DL is any better than ours. I know the Bills haven’t affected the QB a ton but I think the raiders film might be very helpful 

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I’m not sure the Raiders DL is any better than ours. I know the Bills haven’t affected the QB a ton but I think the raiders film might be very helpful 

 

Ok let me clarify a little more... They need to be able to cover enough that Mahomes doesnt want to throw the ball right away and give our 3 to 4 guys time to get some penetration to make Mahomes move.  Afterwards they need to be able to contain.  This is pretty much what the Raiders did.  They gave Mahomes some looks and changed late to ones Mahomes doesn't like.  They covered well with 7-8 guys and it gave Mahomes fits.

 

While Mahomes is the best in the business, if you cover well the QB has to throw perfect balls.  No QB throws perfect balls all game long.

[Victory Formation]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Ok let me clarify a little more... They need to be able to cover enough that Mahomes doesnt want to throw the ball right away and give our 3 to 4 guys time to get some penetration to make Mahomes move.  Afterwards they need to be able to contain.  This is pretty much what the Raiders did.  They gave Mahomes some looks and changed late to ones Mahomes doesn't like.  They covered well with 7-8 guys and it gave Mahomes fits.

 

While Mahomes is the best in the business, if you cover well the QB has to throw perfect balls.  No QB throws perfect balls all game long.

I mean, I guess our defense could put up a fight, it is the NFL — stranger things have happened.. But I expect the Chiefs to drop 42pts on us.. And the only problem is the Chiefs defense is a heckuva lot better than ours — meaning, not only will Allen have to out duel the reigning Super Bowl champ and best QB in the game but he’ll have to do so while playing against a much harder defense than the one Mahomes will have to face... Don’t see it happening. 

[billsfan89]

21 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

It’s Josh’s powerful arm and aggressiveness which makes our offense special. In those first four wins we weren’t exactly taking five to ten yard chunks so it’s a fine line in what you’re asking. I think we’re trying to make a unique and special offense that features Josh and with that growing pains are going to occur. I want to see Josh at his absolute best not a copy of some other QB.

 

If a defense is gearing up to stop downfield throws then Josh has to dink and dunk. If teams are going to respect you deep then you kill them down low. The fact that teams will respect Josh's deep ability so much already shows that the offense is special.

 

In fact if Josh and the offense sees that they are giving them the short stuff early in the game and Josh dinks and dunks his way to TD's and field goals the defense will then adjust to try and clamp down on the shorter stuff and then Josh can kill them in the deep game.

 

If a defense is going to make it easy for you then make it easy. 

[frostbitmic]

If teams are going to play a deep zone against us it would be the perfect time to go to 4 WR sets and send all 4 20-25 yards downfield, that is when you have JA run the ball

 

When he's running, teams usually have a spy on him but LB's can't catch up to him and he's too big for DB's.

 

Take what they give you.

[scribo]

This season, I've found myself wishing our coaching staff would do more copycatting. Seem we are committed to doing what we do regardless of who we are playing. It worked out for the best in all but one game, so I openly admit (of course) that I know an immensely lot less than the coaches.

 

My examples include be running #17 more against that Raiders. Running more against the Raiders. Running more against the Rams. Running more against the Titans.

 

I know this thread is about defending our passing attack with and without John Brown. I don't think any defense can stop our passing attack when our top three receivers and #17 are healthy and on the field.

[Mr. WEO]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:39 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, one thing in the first half...there were times when the Titans were giving Josh's checkdown options SOoooooooOOoo freakin' much cushion that if he looked to them more, he could have had some big chunk plays.   Josh's known reluctance to take the checkdown must be part of the "book" on him around the league.  Knox went from the LOS 15 yds downfield on one play where Allen hit him.  There were a couple other plays where Josh did pull the trigger but he threw it flat and I'm pretty sure it was tipped.  There were more, especially early on, where he forced it rather than take the quick checkdown.  Hopefully that's a point of emphasis to him this week.

 

If KC does something similar and Josh sees those open guys and hits them accurately enough to allow YAC, they'll move out of their zone.  Teams change their plans PDQ when they're getting burned for 8-15 ypa.

 

I'm not great at this kind of analysis but I actually don't think the Titans had a spy on Josh a lot of the time.

 

Most of Diggs’s catches came as no was near him and he was stationary and waiting.  It was weird Defense.  They didn’t want to man him

[3rdand12]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:01 AM, Nextmanup said:

As you're saying, I think his value is in stretching the field and pushing the back of the D further away...opens up more space in shorter and interim route areas.

 

I can only imagine how much respect a DB has to give a guy with Brown's speed....one misstep and he's past you and you aren't going to be able to catch back up.  The FS has to keep an eye on him and respect his speed too.

 

Brown can improve our passing game without even catching a pass.

 

 

 

 

does and yes. Excellent Bills player.
hope his foot is getting right 

[Mr. WEO]

who cares?  DAVIS in the HOUSE!!

[The Jokeman]

On 10/17/2020 at 5:21 PM, Hebert19 said:

So.  Flip the question.  No sammy.  Missing their guard.   How do we replicate what raiders did to kC?

Hope White is healthy and can keep up with Hill. Find a way to manage Kelce from killing you for chunk plays oh and stop their running attack. Not an easy task but if there was ever a time we need our running game to show up it's tonight as think long sustaining drives that lead to TDs can keep us in and possibly win the game. 

[Big Turk]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:11 AM, SCBills said:

Another piece of the puzzle is what we do on first/second down. 
 

Allen was constantly put in 2nd/3rd and long in this game due to our inability to get positive yardage on early down runs and the out of character penalties we dealt with all night.  
 

-No Smoke

-Playing from behind all game

-Allen’s unwillingness to check down

-Running game struggles

 

It was all a perfect storm, and we can normally overcome the meh running game, but when you take away Smoke and add in playing from behind, it just seemed to be the perfect storm for the Titans to execute a game plan that invited Allen to check down.  

 

The team was just off right from the beginning and in all 3 phases.  Whether it was them being unfocused, overconfident, the game being changed multiple times and not knowing who they were playing for a while, etc...doesn't matter, that was easily their worst game as a whole in a LONG LONG time...

 

Willing to bet they will regroup and come out looking much better tonight.

Edited October 19, 2020 by matter2003

[Don Otreply]

With out our top three receivers playing, Diggs Brown and Beasley, we are back in the position we were in last season, and that was lacking the ability to spread defenses both vertically and horizontally in an effective fashion to benefit the passing game,  and the results speak for themselves. Ya can’t remove one of the gears from your transmission and expect your car to work well...
 

Go Bills!!!

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

On 10/17/2020 at 8:56 AM, Hebert19 said:

In a copy cat league...how does John Brown change what chiefs can do?

 

John Brown always hated me. For what, I don't know.

[Don Otreply]

22 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

John Brown always hated me. For what, I don't know.

Every time I plant the seed, he kill it before it grow... 

 

damn that John Brown... 

[TigerJ]

Certainly John Brown's contribution is part of what makes this offense special when living up to potential.  Not having him means a significant adjustment for Josh.  Still, Hapless also has a point.  Josh himself admitted he can be too greedy at times.

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Certainly John Brown's contribution is part of what makes this offense special when living up to potential.  Not having him means a significant adjustment for Josh.  Still, Hapless also has a point.  Josh himself admitted he can be too greedy at times.

 

John Brown is just so consistent game to game and week to week...you can pretty much pencil him in for 5-6 catches and 70-80 yards week after week.

[Hebert19]

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Hope White is healthy and can keep up with Hill. Find a way to manage Kelce from killing you for chunk plays oh and stop their running attack. Not an easy task but if there was ever a time we need our running game to show up it's tonight as think long sustaining drives that lead to TDs can keep us in and possibly win the game. 

Do we double kelce with a bump at the line from Edmunds and or Milano and then a safety grabs him as he gets depth.  A little over under on him.

[Charles Romes]

May try the faster Yeldon or Isaiah at RB. Singletary too slow to get to get to the second level against the zone. 

[Mat68]

The first drive of the game Brown runs a route he ran 1 million time.  Vs Roberts having poor timing.