The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I mean the refs screwed them on time at the end and could've easily flagged the last play. I'm not sure this game was one to point to. 

 

What would the flag on the last play have been for?

[K-9]

1 minute ago, FUTURIST said:

 

I wouldn't underestimate them, but they are a flawed team in a brutal conference.  The way they are built they have no chance of ever beating the Chiefs, and they will have a real tough time beating the Steelers or even the Colts.  Their passing attack is awful and they just lost a major part of their O line.  They are not winning anything this year. 

I’m not predicting the Ravens to win anything. Flawed or not, they’re a good team and a tough out for most other teams in the league.  They kicked the Steelers’ asses up and don’t the field yesterday and the Steelers are good in their own right. 
 

And everybody else is chasing the Chiefs at the moment. 

[Greg S]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’m not predicting the Ravens to win anything. Flawed or not, they’re a good team and a tough out for most other teams in the league.  They kicked the Steelers’ asses up and don’t the field yesterday and the Steelers are good in their own right. 
 

And everybody else is chasing the Chiefs at the moment. 

 

I think Pitt will beat KC if they play in the AFC championship game. IMHO Pitt is the best team in football. 7-0 and coming off back to back road wins at Ten and Bal.

[BITE ME]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’m not predicting the Ravens to win anything. Flawed or not, they’re a good team and a tough out for most other teams in the league.  They kicked the Steelers’ asses up and don’t the field yesterday and the Steelers are good in their own right. 
 

And everybody else is chasing the Chiefs at the moment. 

 

I can see the Steelers, Colts, and Titans beating the Chiefs if things go their way.  I see no scenario where a team that can't pass the ball beat the Chiefs.  

[wjag]

3 minutes ago, FUTURIST said:

 

I wouldn't underestimate them, but they are a flawed team in a brutal conference.  The way they are built they have no chance of ever beating the Chiefs, and they will have a real tough time beating the Steelers or even the Colts.  Their passing attack is awful and they just lost a major part of their O line.  They are not winning anything this year. 

 

The Ravens are first and foremost a defense first team.  Look at all the primo additions the last two years and they are squarely on the defensive side of the ball.  Their defense will keep games close.  Their running game is good enough to win 5 out of every 6 games they play.   It will depend on their draw in the playoffs how far they go.  Get an easier draw and get a win, that defense can carry them forward.  I don't see anyone, including Pittsburgh with the chops to beat KC unless weather equalizes the playing field.  You're right, losing Stanley at LT is a major loss for them.

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

I think Pitt will beat KC if they play in the AFC championship game. IMHO Pitt is the best team in football. 7-0 and coming off back to back road wins at Ten and Bal.

I agree, the Steelers are for real. But the Ravens dominated their defense yesterday. 

[Jerome007]

39 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/11/02/hollywood-brown-apparently-isnt-happy-with-his-role/

 

Not everyone is happy in Ravens' Land apparently. The lack of utilization via play calling or Lamar's inability to get the ball to his WR's on a consistent basis isn't giving Marquise Brown that warm and fuzzy feeling. 

I've said many times that it must be discouraging playing WR for the Ravens. But OL, TE? Must be fun.

 

They had 265 yards of rushing yesterday! And it's typical they have more rushing than passing. They are the opposite of the Chiefs. They are set up so if they win, they bring the hammer and misery. If they are behind by a lot, they have little chance to come back. But so far, they deliver.

[Greg S]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I agree, the Steelers are for real. But the Ravens dominated their defense yesterday. 

 

They did. Those 2 INT's the Steelers got are a big reason they are 7-0 and not 6-1 today.

[syhuang]

18 hours ago, Trogdor said:

If the NFL was a place where physical plays happen in the secondary, I would totally agree. Unfortunately players are almost always flagged for hitting too hard now. Add in the fact that there was contact to the head and I'm just surprised. His hand being in there and being at the right height was amazing though. 

 

 

Defensive player has right to catch the ball just like the offensive player. Fitzpatrick was in position to make an interception. You can't throw a flag for incidental contact like this.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by syhuang

[Captain Hindsight]

20 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

I'm still not convinced Lamar can pass to win a game.

Me either. Hes a dynamic athlete, but when I saw him live last year my take away was "great athlete, ok passer"

[Punching Bag]

8 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

Defensive player has right to catch the ball just like the offensive player. Fitzpatrick was in position to make an interception. You can't throw a flag for incidental contact like this.

 

 

 

He was playing the ball not the man.  No foul.

They never do seem to call face guarding anymore.

[Trogdor]

4 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

Defensive player has right to catch the ball just like the offensive player. Fitzpatrick was in position to make an interception. You can't throw a flag for incidental contact like this.

 

 

They can and they do throw flags for this. There is a whole other defender taking his legs out and in 2020 thats a flag more often than not. I'm not arguing that I agree that it should be a penalty, but this is what football is now. They just don't seem to enforce it against everyone. 

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What would the flag on the last play have been for?

Defenseless receiver or the fact that he got hit in the head. Again though, I'm not saying it wasn't a good play, just that in todays NFL that gets called a lot.  

[syhuang]

44 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

They can and they do throw flags for this. There is a whole other defender taking his legs out and in 2020 thats a flag more often than not. I'm not arguing that I agree that it should be a penalty, but this is what football is now. They just don't seem to enforce it against everyone. 

Defenseless receiver or the fact that he got hit in the head. Again though, I'm not saying it wasn't a good play, just that in todays NFL that gets called a lot.  

 

Do you mind sharing a video of a defenseless receiver flag like this when the defender playing the ball has incidental contact with the offensive player?

Edited November 3, 2020 by syhuang

[TheElectricCompany]

Fun thread. I picked my "hill to die on", I guess I need to defend it.

 

Yes, he is in a a slump. The more important question is "can he break out of it"? I'd argue yes. I like to think that QBs that can throw 5 TDs OR run for 150+ yards can figure it out.

 

Even in a down year, he's pacing for 27 TDs / 9 Picks for 3069 yards passing, 939 yards and 4 TDs running. That's how high the bar is with Lamar - think about that! If your QB can produce that type of offense year after year, you're going to contend for championships.

 

While I think the "he can't win big games" and "he can't throw outside" takes are way overdone, they are clearly the narrative against him right now, and that's OK. It comes with the MVP territory. Barring a complete catastrophe, the Ravens will be in the playoffs this year, and he'll have some opportunities to change those narratives.

Edited November 3, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[The Frankish Reich]

5 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Me either. Hes a dynamic athlete, but when I saw him live last year my take away was "great athlete, ok passer"

Hmm, great athlete; o.k. passer. Where have I heard that one before? He hurdles over defenders, throws the ball 70 yards in the air, then misses badly on an easy out ... hold on a sec, I'm thinking, I'm thinking ...

 

[blacklabel]

5 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

I've said many times that it must be discouraging playing WR for the Ravens. But OL, TE? Must be fun.

 

They had 265 yards of rushing yesterday! And it's typical they have more rushing than passing. They are the opposite of the Chiefs. They are set up so if they win, they bring the hammer and misery. If they are behind by a lot, they have little chance to come back. But so far, they deliver.

 

And that's the hallmark of a Greg Roman offense. He can beat you with the run nine different ways to Sunday, and will crank out wins if they hold a lead for most of the game. If they're behind by 10 or more and need to start throwing more than running, they're in trouble. Roman's passing concepts are relatively easy to defend and they really don't have anything special at WR. I mean, Brown is good but he can't do it all himself. His TEs are solid but overall their passing game isn't to be feared. 

[djp14150]

5 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

I think Pitt will beat KC if they play in the AFC championship game. IMHO Pitt is the best team in football. 7-0 and coming off back to back road wins at Ten and Bal.

 

 

I would not  say that

 

they have won a bunch of close games that Pittsburgh was trailing or had a one score lead and the other team had the ball to take the lead in late 3rd or 4th.

 

only one game agsinst the Browns was one sided.

 

 

 

 

[Jerome007]

11 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

And that's the hallmark of a Greg Roman offense. He can beat you with the run nine different ways to Sunday, and will crank out wins if they hold a lead for most of the game. If they're behind by 10 or more and need to start throwing more than running, they're in trouble. Roman's passing concepts are relatively easy to defend and they really don't have anything special at WR. I mean, Brown is good but he can't do it all himself. His TEs are solid but overall their passing game isn't to be feared. 

His run offense was awesome when he was here as well. So much variety. I'm actually surprised it isn't copied more!

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Fun thread. I picked my "hill to die on", I guess I need to defend it.

 

Yes, he is in a a slump. The more important question is "can he break out of it"? I'd argue yes. I like to think that QBs that can throw 5 TDs OR run for 150+ yards can figure it out.

 

Even in a down year, he's pacing for 27 TDs / 9 Picks for 3069 yards passing, 939 yards and 4 TDs running. That's how high the bar is with Lamar - think about that! If you're QB can produce that type of offense year after year, you're going to contend for championships.

 

While I think the "he can't win big games" and "he can't throw outside" takes are way overdone, they are clearly the narrative against him right now, and that's OK. It comes with the MVP territory. Barring a complete catastrophe, the Ravens will be in the playoffs this year, and he'll have some opportunities to change those narratives.

 

 

 

The TDs are nice but realistically the guy is not having a good year throwing the football

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

Both Rex Ryan and Steve Young are blaming the Ravens coaches for Jackson's failings as a passer...

50/50 imo

 

those 3TE sets they ran last year were monsters

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Sure, there are plenty of other places where a finger can get pointed.
Offensive coordinator Greg Roman’s questionable play call at the end of the game deserves some critique.

The defense had a bit of a collapse in the second half. The officials didn’t do Baltimore any favors.

But the most important guy on the field — Jackson — caused the most damage to the Ravens’ chances.

 

Jackson committed four turnovers on the day, with two more nearly going Pittsburgh’s way. Three of those turnovers effectively took a minimum of 13 points off the board in favor of Baltimore and were the deciding factor in who won Sunday.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lamar-jackson-single-handedly-lost-154240132.html
 

lol blame the officials

 

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

The TDs are nice but realistically the guy is not having a good year throwing the football

 

He's missing some throws, no doubt. He's still having a good year, but it's just that, good.

I want to see some games where he gets back to peak MVP form! 

[YoloinOhio]

7 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

I think Pitt will beat KC if they play in the AFC championship game. IMHO Pitt is the best team in football. 7-0 and coming off back to back road wins at Ten and Bal.

I love the Steelers right now but chiefs win that matchup imo. Steelers D strength is takeaways. I think chiefs would throw and run all over them

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

50/50 imo

 

those 3TE sets they ran last year were monsters

 

Yeah, I think it was you who corrected me when I didn't realize the Ravens had traded Hayden Hurst.  I couldn't believe it, because those sets were so successful for them and he was a monster. 

 

7 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

Defensive player has right to catch the ball just like the offensive player. Fitzpatrick was in position to make an interception. You can't throw a flag for incidental contact like this.

 

 

 

Looks like the Steelers player was making a play on the ball to me.

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yeah, I think it was you who corrected me when I didn't realize the Ravens had traded Hayden Hurst.  I couldn't believe it, because those sets were so successful for them and he was a monster. 

 

 

Looks like the Steelers player was making a play on the ball to me.

It was a great play by the defender. But the pass was a TD by Lamar if that doesn’t occur. Narrative totally different today if so but Steelers make the play. 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

It was a great play by the defender. But the pass was a TD by Lamar if that doesn’t occur. Narrative totally different today if so but Steelers make the play. 

Is it though? Throwing into a window where the defenders were able to sandwich the guy like that seems to me he was trying to force it to a guy that was pretty well covered.

[billspro]

Jackson will be around for a while. He will feast against the lower tier teams and beat most of the average teams. He is not a good enough passer to beat the elite teams imo. He is unstoppable when they have the lead most of the time. He is very limited when they are behind. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

It was a great play by the defender. But the pass was a TD by Lamar if that doesn’t occur. Narrative totally different today if so but Steelers make the play. 

 

That's often true, right?  If Peters didn't make a good play on Allen's pass to John Brown at the end of the game last year and we tie the game, different narrative there.

[Gugny]

45 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yeah, I think it was you who corrected me when I didn't realize the Ravens had traded Hayden Hurst.  I couldn't believe it, because those sets were so successful for them and he was a monster. 

 

 

Looks like the Steelers player was making a play on the ball to me.

 

I'd like to see if anyone was open on either sideline.  Jackson, as always, went to the middle of the field and this time to a guy who was triple (nearly quadruple) covered.  And yes ... there was no penalty on that play at all.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Is it though? Throwing into a window where the defenders were able to sandwich the guy like that seems to me he was trying to force it to a guy that was pretty well covered.

 

I didn't see the play live, much less all-22.  Sometimes at the end of the game near the goal line, there aren't uncovered choices.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

He's missing some throws, no doubt. He's still having a good year, but it's just that, good.

I want to see some games where he gets back to peak MVP form! 

I mean he’s 27th in yards and attempts, 30th in completion %, 22nd in ANY/A

 

That’s an objectively bad borderline terrible half season of throwing the football

 

 

 

[syhuang]

@Trogdor

 

CBS Sports rules analyst and former NFL referee Gene Steratore explained why the last play wasn't a penalty. As mentioned earlier, Fitzpatrick was making a play on the ball, thus, incidental contact wasn't a penalty.

 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean he’s 27th in yards and attempts, 30th in completion %, 22nd in ANY/A

 

That’s an objectively bad borderline terrible half season of throwing the football

 

Yards/attempts is more of a function of his offense. Last year, he was very efficient on those attempts, this year, not so much. Reasonable critique on ANY/A and completion.

 

Bad/terrible play?I think that's overdone, but if these are the only stats we want to look at, it's not that egregious. 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Yards/attempts is more of a function of his offense. Last year, he was very efficient on those attempts, this year, not so much. Reasonable critique on ANY/A and completion.

 

Bad/terrible play?I think that's overdone, but if these are the only stats we want to look at, it's not that egregious. 

 

It’s fair points re: the offense but from what I’ve seen he still isn’t capable of throwing that team to a significant W

 

and he has looked bad in their biggest games thus far

[Teddy KGB]

11 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

He's missing some throws, no doubt. He's still having a good year, but it's just that, good.

I want to see some games where he gets back to peak MVP form! 

Why ?    The Ravens are in the AFC

 

I hope he loses in the first round of the playoffs 5 more times. 
 

More Lamar Dalton please.  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Teddy KGB

[TheElectricCompany]

28 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It’s fair points re: the offense but from what I’ve seen he still isn’t capable of throwing that team to a significant W

and he has looked bad in their biggest games thus far

 

The Chiefs, Steelers and Titans have had his number, otherwise, he's been pretty unstoppable. I think he has the best W/L record in modern NFL history (Saw that as an insight on the NFL gametracker) since he became a starter. Like I've said though, the "win a big game" is  a fair critique. When you're the MVP,  the expectation is that your team is going deep into the playoffs. He needs to deliver.

 

"Isn't capable of throwing that team to a win"...those 5 TD games, or 150+ passer performances, would check the boxes for me. Of course, I think you can't isolate the running from his performance, because he can win games just through that ability.

 

21 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Why ?    The Ravens are in the AFC

 

I hope he loses in the first round of the playoffs 5 more times. 
 

More Lamar Dalton please.  

 

I love competitive football, and Josh VS Lamar, Mahomes or Watson in January is great football.

Lamar Dalton LOL - 0-2 in the postseason isn't that horrific.

Edited November 3, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

The Chiefs, Steelers and Titans have had his number, otherwise, he's been pretty unstoppable. I think he has the best W/L record in modern NFL history (Saw that as an insight on the NFL gametracker) since he became a starter. Like I've said though, the "win a big game" is  a fair critique. When you're the MVP,  the expectation is that your team is going deep into the playoffs. He needs to deliver.

 

"Isn't capable of throwing that team to a win"...those 5 TD games, or 150+ passer performances, would check the boxes for me. Of course, I think you can't isolate the running from his performance, because he can win games just through that ability.

 

 

I love competitive football, and Josh VS Lamar, Mahomes or Watson in January is great football.

Lamar Dalton LOL - 0-2 in the postseason isn't that horrific.

Again all fair I think we disagree fundamentally on his abilities 

[GunnerBill]

As strange as it sounds.... because I agree Lamar wasn't good on Sunday.... it almost felt a bit like a step forward for the Ravens in the sense that when they have got behind to good teams the last couple of times the game has got out of hand fast. It didn't on Sunday and the lead swapped and changed and it was a good football game. They didn't quite make enough of the critical plays to win it but it was a better effort than their ones against the Titans in the playoffs and Chiefs early this year. They were right there in this game despite Pittsburgh getting ahead a couple of times and despite making some mistakes with turnovers that should get you beat.

 

It is absolutely right though that eventually Lamar has to make those plays at the end of the game if he wants to be an upper echelon QB. Those plays where you can't be balanced because the clock dictates you gotta throw. I thought the ball down the seam - which he does throw very well - to set them up was a great throw. He just couldn't make the one they needed right there.

[HT02]

Jackson isn't as good as the media made him sound last year but he is a QB you can win play-off games with and likely a championship.  He's just not in the same class with Mahomes, no one is right now.  Some writers tried so sell that he was the #1 QB in the league which he isn't.  The Ravens have done an outstanding job of playing up his strengths and masking his shortcomings but he clearly has some.  I suspect that the QB rankings after Mahomes will fluctuate week to week.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, HT02 said:

Jackson isn't as good as the media made him sound last year but he is a QB you can win play-off games with and likely a championship.  He's just not in the same class with Mahomes, no one is right now.  Some writers tried so sell that he was the #1 QB in the league which he isn't.  The Ravens have done an outstanding job of playing up his strengths and masking his shortcomings but he clearly has some.  I suspect that the QB rankings after Mahomes will fluctuate week to week.

 

Isn't the bolded still to be proven? I think the truth on Lamar is somewhere between "MVP who has revolutionised the league" and "the era is over". But until he has proven he is a QB you can win playoff games with can we really call him that? And no, I am not a hypocrite, I would say the same about Allen or any other QB who hasn't won in the post-season despite opportunities.