PFF Refocused Week 1 - Bills vs Jets

[MJS]

6 hours ago, ngbills said:

Yes and no. We are mostly casual fans on here so I know this will not happen. But...watch the film and it was not as good of a performance as just the stats show. Not just the fumbles and couple of missed passes. Still too many plays that turn into improvisation which is good at times, but too much is a QB that still struggling a bit with reads and decisions. I guarantee you the coaches and Josh are watching films and even on a play were he scrambles one way and then goes another for a 22 yard run they are saying look at Diggs here and this is when you should have thrown the ball etc. They now you dont win consistently playing that way. In a big game that 22 yard run turns into a 10 yard loss or a bad pass attempt on the run or a fumble. It is finding that balance of scripted vs improv. 

You are talking out of your behind. A big part of the modern NFL game is extending plays and the scramble drill. Aaron Rodgers has made a career out of it. Teams actually practice what to do and what to look for when a play breaks down. Wide receivers are schooled on how to get open and come back for the ball. These things are planned and worked on.

 

There are always things to work on from the previous game. Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. will tell you they always have things to look at and work on after a game. That's a given.

 

Stats are stats. Allen's stats perfectly represent the game he had. No QB is ever 100% completion percentage in a game (Brees got close last year) which means every QB misses throws, or has the passes defended, etc. And every QB throws INT's. So yeah, Allen does have stuff to work on and always will till the day he retires.

[ngbills]

Here is what I said. How is this talking out of my behind.I said it is finding the balance of the two. I felt and it is my opinion that the Bills were not as strong on the scripted portion of the plays as they would have wanted. Yes, of course you take this game. But in a game vbs a better team they dont let you beat them as much with those types of plays. The second half you saw even the Jets defend Allen better. It is a plus to have a QB like Allen that can make something out of nothing. But you plan for the something not the nothing. And I never said anything about 100% passing. I said his stats look better than his play. He lit it up early and then struggled a bit. He will learn and get better. I think this will not be one of his best games of the year but more of a mediocre one when all is said and done. That is being positive not negative. 

 

Yes and no. We are mostly casual fans on here so I know this will not happen. But...watch the film and it was not as good of a performance as just the stats show. Not just the fumbles and couple of missed passes. Still too many plays that turn into improvisation which is good at times, but too much is a QB that still struggling a bit with reads and decisions. I guarantee you the coaches and Josh are watching films and even on a play were he scrambles one way and then goes another for a 22 yard run they are saying look at Diggs here and this is when you should have thrown the ball etc. They now you dont win consistently playing that way. In a big game that 22 yard run turns into a 10 yard loss or a bad pass attempt on the run or a fumble. It is finding that balance of scripted vs improv. 

1 minute ago, MJS said:

You are talking out of your behind. A big part of the modern NFL game is extending plays and the scramble drill. Aaron Rodgers has made a career out of it. Teams actually practice what to do and what to look for when a play breaks down. Wide receivers are schooled on how to get open and come back for the ball. These things are planned and worked on.

 

There are always things to work on from the previous game. Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. will tell you they always have things to look at and work on after a game. That's a given.

 

Stats are stats. Allen's stats perfectly represent the game he had. No QB is ever 100% completion percentage in a game (Brees got close last year) which means every QB misses throws, or has the passes defended, etc. And every QB throws INT's. So yeah, Allen does have stuff to work on and always will till the day he retires.

 

[WideNine]

Lost me at PFF in the title. I think they enjoy peeing in our Cheerios.

 

I still believe that they are homers who selectively emphasize or minimize the stats they feel propel the narrative that they prefer, but hey some folks still think they are objective even when it looked like they were hanging on Mayfield's jock in 2018:

https://clutchpoints.com/browns-news-pff-reveals-baker-mayfields-top-performance-from-2018/

 

My own take is that unlike Allen, Baker Mayfield came out of a great college system and was gifted a ton of talent to work with in his time in the NFL. If he actually used that talent around him effectively yesterday would PFF slant the credit to his receiving core elevating Baker's game or go back to reinforcing their original narrative and saying Mayfield was back to the QB they thought he was in 2018?

 

...yesterday per PFF:

 

"Baker Mayfield didn't seem to trust anything happening around him. When he did trust his first reads, he threw into tight coverage. Baker was 2-of-10 for 25 yards and was sacked twice when pressured.

Even when Mayfield was kept clean, he went only 19-of-34 for 164 yards with one big time throw and two turnover-worthy plays. Odell Beckham Jr. gave the proverbial side eye every time Baker missed a pass in his direction. Beckham caught five balls on seven targets, including a wide-open drop. It’s hard to think of a worse Week 1 performance by an offense in recent years — the Browns stay winless in the PFF era in Week 1s."

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by WideNine

[ngbills]

14 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

And don't just accept anything you hear either. 

I know that whoever was calling that game said something about Beasley having a chance to take that to the house but that simply was not going to happen. 

The Jets had dropped into two deep and the Free was already closing on Beasley when Allen let it go.  The safety was on his way and had the angle and if Josh hangs that thing out there, there's a better chance the safety closes on it than anything else. Taking the 30yrds that were available was exactly the right thing to do.

No no no. Watch the film. That ball is placed in the right spot and he is gone. He had beaten the coverage and split the safeties and was running past them. He had to dive for the ball instead of catching in stride and taking it to the house. You dont even need All 22 to see this one. 

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

it’s a three sentence praise of our big ticket free agents. Let’s not freak out about lack of nuance for the many other positions involved in passing.

 

Let the man fill his Pampers.....

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

No no no. Watch the film. That ball is placed in the right spot and he is gone. He had beaten the coverage and split the safeties and was running past them. He had to dive for the ball instead of catching in stride and taking it to the house. You dont even need All 22 to see this one. 

I disagree. The Free was on his way with a good angle and if Allen lays it up there the safety possibly runs it down and breaks it up.

When a defense offers you 30 yards, you take it.

[ngbills]

37 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

We are?  I submit that people who post on a Bills message board are NOT casual fans.

 

If you can be this negative after yesterday's game I shudder to think how negative you will be after the inevitable Allen clunker.

 

 

 

I am actually positive. I just think Josh and Bills can be much better. This game is not the mountain top but just somewhere about mid mountain. As the season goes we will see Josh not having to work as hard to score points. That is all. The offense scored and was productive but it did not go as smoothly as it will. That is the good part about being a good team now...you can not be at your best and still beat bad and average teams. Need to take it up a notch vs KC and BAL. 

[Franco_92]

33 minutes ago, MJS said:

You are talking out of your behind. A big part of the modern NFL game is extending plays and the scramble drill. Aaron Rodgers has made a career out of it. Teams actually practice what to do and what to look for when a play breaks down. Wide receivers are schooled on how to get open and come back for the ball. These things are planned and worked on.

 

There are always things to work on from the previous game. Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. will tell you they always have things to look at and work on after a game. That's a given.

 

Stats are stats. Allen's stats perfectly represent the game he had. No QB is ever 100% completion percentage in a game ( Brees got close last year) which means every QB misses throws, or has the passes defended, etc. And every QB throws INT's. So yeah, Allen does have stuff to work on and always will till the day he retires.

Dont forget about the one and only Gardner Minshew, just yesterday!

[3rdand12]

9 minutes ago, Simon said:

I disagree. The Free was on his way with a good angle and if Allen lays it up there the safety possibly runs it down and breaks it up.

When a defense offers you 30 yards, you take it.

there was more than one pass that i saw Josh protect his WR and this one was the case here as well\ Early one to Diggs had me watching.
The one where Brown and Diggs were tracking the same ball nd Diggs took the two smacks was unfortunate for sure.

 But i saw a much more aware and mature Allen. Most of the time : ) if he hangs that ball out there again when running , daring the defense to come smack him ?       grrrr  lol

Edited September 14, 2020 by 3rdand12

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Dont forget about the one and only Gardner Minshew, just yesterday!

True! But I believe Brees threw a lot more passes in his one incompletion game.

[Locomark]

8 hours ago, ngbills said:

YAC comes from accuracy. The pass to Beasley that was off target was a ton of lost YAC. Watch the tape and dont just reject anything you dont like to hear. Many throws were checkdowns. Nothing wrong with that. That is why it took 46 attempts to hit 300 yds and total of 179 air yards on 33 completions. Watch the Ravens game - almost half the attempts for 275 yards. He had 202 air yards on only 20 completes. 

Let me tell you right now that Josh Allen has a good chance to eclipse Lamar in passing yards and and will probably end up a very close 2nd to him in rushing yards this year.... there I said it.

[wiley16350]

7 hours ago, ngbills said:

Agreed. Saying that Allen suffers from lack of YAC while others benefit would be like some conspiracy theory. YAC comes from ball placement, timing and making the right read. This is the NFL. Any WR that catches the ball with room to run is going to make that play. Yes, some are clearly better than others but it is not as drastic as some try to imply. Like the Bills WR all just fall down or run out of bounds. We have seen tons of examples of a Bills catch being made but if the ball is thrown a bit better the guy picks up extra yards vs diving for a ball, etc. 

YAC comes from a variety of reasons. John Brown scored a TD off of a screen pass that was almost in the dirt. That YAC was earned by the play call and a defense not prepared to stop it. It is possible that Allen audibled into that or that it was the original call, nobody knows so it is hard to say who earned the YAC for that play (outside of any tackles Brown avoided) but the one thing I do know, it had nothing to do with accuracy. With that said, there are times where YAC is reduced because the QB's accuracy took the receiver to the ground as the throw to Beasley did.

 

Lots of YAC comes from screen passes and check downs. The Bills haven't done a lot of that in the previous 2 years and when they did, they weren't good at it. Receivers also earn YAC by avoiding tackles, so plenty of YAC has nothing to do with the QB. It is also harder for Receivers to get a lot of YAC when playing in tight coverage because they're more often tackled at the catch point. There are also certain routes that are less likely to get YAC because of the positioning of zone defenders. These are the reasons that the Bills haven't been earning much YAC the last couple of years and people want to put that on Allen. In this game, the game plan and the defense they played was more conducive to getting YAC and guess what; more YAC was had. Saying that a QB's accuracy is what earns YAC is way too simplistic of a mind set.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

And don't just accept anything you hear either. 

I know that whoever was calling that game said something about Beasley having a chance to take that to the house but that simply was not going to happen. 

The Jets had dropped into two deep and the Free was already closing on Beasley when Allen let it go.  The safety was on his way and had the angle and if Josh hangs that thing out there, there's a better chance the safety closes on it than anything else. Taking the 30yrds that were available was exactly the right thing to do.

Just to note.HOF WR and former Bill, James Lofton made that comment. Just to provide some color to the “whoever was calling that game” 

 

Not calling it a bad throw. That’s probably what Allen saw. I think the point is the result of the better throw was incredibly valuable comparably.  

[ngbills]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

I disagree. The Free was on his way with a good angle and if Allen lays it up there the safety possibly runs it down and breaks it up.

When a defense offers you 30 yards, you take it.

We can agree to disagree. The safety was behind him and to his left by at least 5 yards. Allen throws that ball in stride Beasley catches and outruns the safety. I could not find any of the analysis with pics out there yet. But here is my amateur shots - not the best angle, end zone shot would be best. You can see if he is able to continue running straight and not have to dive and towards the safety he is gone. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, ngbills said:

YAC comes from accuracy. The pass to Beasley that was off target was a ton of lost YAC. Watch the tape and dont just reject anything you dont like to hear. Many throws were checkdowns. Nothing wrong with that. That is why it took 46 attempts to hit 300 yds and total of 179 air yards on 33 completions. Watch the Ravens game - almost half the attempts for 275 yards. He had 202 air yards on only 20 completes. 

 

I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make with the Ravens Bills comparison?

 

The Ravens typical offensive game plan is to run the ball with Jackson and Andrews,  RPOs featuring short passing game over the middle primarily to the tight ends, then deep bombs to Marquise Brown when the defense doubles-down on the run.  Different offensive design than most NFL teams, and highlights Lamar Jackson’s best skills.

[TigerJ]

It was a strategic decision by the Bills to have Josh Allen get rid of the ball quickly.  That may not happen every week, but it worked well.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

You are talking out of your behind. A big part of the modern NFL game is extending plays and the scramble drill. Aaron Rodgers has made a career out of it. Teams actually practice what to do and what to look for when a play breaks down. Wide receivers are schooled on how to get open and come back for the ball. These things are planned and worked on.

 

There are always things to work on from the previous game. Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. will tell you they always have things to look at and work on after a game. That's a given.

 

Stats are stats. Allen's stats perfectly represent the game he had. No QB is ever 100% completion percentage in a game (Brees got close last year) which means every QB misses throws, or has the passes defended, etc. And every QB throws INT's. So yeah, Allen does have stuff to work on and always will till the day he retires.

 

One of the things I value about this site is how I can encounter people of very different social and political views, and find a connection.  

 

100% agree with your take here.  To amplify it a bit, there were several articles written last fall around how Beasley influenced Daboll to incorporate some of Mouse Davis’ run-and-shoot offense, which highlights “secondary route concepts”.  These were used with great success in the Cowboys game.  (I think the articles were in the Athletic FWIW).

 

To my inexpert eye, the Bills weren’t playing “street ball” after the play broke down - they were employing some of those concepts to good effect in the Moss TD and there was a R sideline completion to Brown where it was pretty clear 1) he extended his route and came back quite a bit on what looked like a secondary route 2) he wound up exactly where Allen expected him to be.

[CincyBillsFan]

And lets not forget the wind.  When you see a refs jersey flapping around you know there are some serious gusts blowing through the stadium.  As Bills fans we understand that you throw the ball differently in these types of games. If the wind is at your back then you have to deliberately under throw the receiver which is what I think we saw with the Allen to Beasely throw.

 

Bottom line is that Allen completing over 70% of his passes for over 300 yards in that wind was an impressive accomplishment.

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

Let me tell you right now that Josh Allen has a good chance to eclipse Lamar in passing yards and and will probably end up a very close 2nd to him in rushing yards this year.... there I said it.

 

Erm well, MVP Lamar’s passing yards were like 27 in the NFL last year....right behind the #26 Bills.  The Ravens ran a very efficient, effective but not high-yardage passing attack last year.

 

Of course, to your point, some 400 of those #26 yards were not Josh Allen’s due to him missing a game+ with concussion and some passing yards from John Brown.

[Bulldog]

16 hours ago, chris heff said:

Are we related?

It sure looks like it ...

One thing is for sure - good looks run in the family, lol.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

I think a click bait ad suggested soaking my feet in vinegar will eliminate Zach Ertz.

 

EDIT:  Hey!  This was destined for the Zach Ertz thread!  🤔

Edited September 15, 2020 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[njbuff]

Re-watching this game...................

 

the Bills just simply TOYED with the Jets.

 

At no point in the game did the Bills EVER feel threatened and they treated this like a preseason game, to a certain extent.

 

It almost....... ALMOST........ makes you feel bad for Jets fans with this game playing out this way.

[ngbills]

35 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Re-watching this game...................

 

the Bills just simply TOYED with the Jets.

 

At no point in the game did the Bills EVER feel threatened and they treated this like a preseason game, to a certain extent.

 

It almost....... ALMOST........ makes you feel bad for Jets fans with this game playing out this way.

Yet we only one by 10. This should have been a 56-3 like blow out based on how it started. 

[Big C]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Yet we only one by 10. This should have been a 56-3 like blow out based on how it started. 

True. Definitely the fumbles and missed field goals made the game closer than it needed to be. Edmunds missing his tackle on that crowder TD can't happen against better teams, though I don't know if McD would have dialed up that pressure against a better QB. 

 

Still, at no point did I feel that they would let the game get away from them. And you know coach is drilling them on those errors.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 9/14/2020 at 11:22 AM, Scott7975 said:

Yes PFF it was all the receivers. Josh didn’t throw good passes. No other QBs get a chunk of their yards from YAC like Josh 

 

This will be the next Josh narrative. His receivers are making him look good.

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

Yet we only one by 10. This should have been a 56-3 like blow out based on how it started. 

 

Well, there was a garbage time TD.  Three score win otherwise.

[HappyDays]

 

You have to respect their grift.

[GoBills808]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

You have to respect their grift.

Lol@ this teaser when buying 6 puts this at like basically 1-1 when the Giants are sitting there at +205...so stupid it's barely funny anymore

 

 

[Locomark]

On 9/14/2020 at 7:22 PM, ngbills said:

We can agree to disagree. The safety was behind him and to his left by at least 5 yards. Allen throws that ball in stride Beasley catches and outruns the safety. I could not find any of the analysis with pics out there yet. But here is my amateur shots - not the best angle, end zone shot would be best. You can see if he is able to continue running straight and not have to dive and towards the safety he is gone. 

Hey if you are really going to a scrutinize every throw I suggest you go back and watch KCs opener. I watched Mahomes throw at least 3 balls to no one in particular and one time there was a wide open WR that he missed by 10 yards...Does anybody not notice when other quality QBs miss throws? They all do it. Josh hit this one, he just threw it low because he has been told to avoid turnovers and he has had middle of the field deep picks galore in the past, so hard to fault him for taking the safe 30 yards. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

Hey if you are really going to a scrutinize every throw I suggest you go back and watch KCs opener. I watched Mahomes throw at least 3 balls to no one in particular and one time there was a wide open WR that he missed by 10 yards...Does anybody not notice when other quality QBs miss throws? They all do it. Josh hit this one, he just threw it low because he has been told to avoid turnovers and he has had middle of the field deep picks galore in the past, so hard to fault him for taking the safe 30 yards. 

 

That kind of throw where a QB has a completion but a better placed ball would have provided for major YAC or maybe even a touchdown happens in every single game each weekend. Every decent QB has 1 or 2 of those each week. They are frustrating but they happen. Anyone trying to hold that up as an example of why Josh's passing day was not as good as it appears at first look is being unfair with their expectations.

[ngbills]

9 hours ago, Locomark said:

Hey if you are really going to a scrutinize every throw I suggest you go back and watch KCs opener. I watched Mahomes throw at least 3 balls to no one in particular and one time there was a wide open WR that he missed by 10 yards...Does anybody not notice when other quality QBs miss throws? They all do it. Josh hit this one, he just threw it low because he has been told to avoid turnovers and he has had middle of the field deep picks galore in the past, so hard to fault him for taking the safe 30 yards. 

 

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That kind of throw where a QB has a completion but a better placed ball would have provided for major YAC or maybe even a touchdown happens in every single game each weekend. Every decent QB has 1 or 2 of those each week. They are frustrating but they happen. Anyone trying to hold that up as an example of why Josh's passing day was not as good as it appears at first look is being unfair with their expectations.

Context. The picture and discussion was not a "only Allen throws this pass" "Allen sucks and had a horrible game" post. It was responding to a few that actually said it was not a bad pass. He threw it in the right spot and that anywhere else it was a pick and not a touchdown. I called bs on that. Beasley was clearly open and had beaten the two deep coverage. Ball in the right spot and he is gone. Thats all. And yes, that pass can be missed by any QB and it does happen all the time. But no need to pretend it didn't happen. 

[BillsFanSD]

9 hours ago, Locomark said:

Hey if you are really going to a scrutinize every throw I suggest you go back and watch KCs opener. 

I'm completely convinced that a lot of these people who nitpick every JA pass don't watch any other NFL games.  

 

Was the ball placement the Beasley reception perfect?  No, obviously not.  But literally every QB in every game has passes like that.  Nobody has the kind of pinpoint 100% accuracy on every pass that certain folks seem to expect from Allen.

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, ngbills said:

 

Context. The picture and discussion was not a "only Allen throws this pass" "Allen sucks and had a horrible game" post. It was responding to a few that actually said it was not a bad pass. He threw it in the right spot and that anywhere else it was a pick and not a touchdown. I called bs on that. Beasley was clearly open and had beaten the two deep coverage. Ball in the right spot and he is gone. Thats all. And yes, that pass can be missed by any QB and it does happen all the time. But no need to pretend it didn't happen. 

It wasn't a bad pass. It wasn't perfectly placed, but it wasn't a miss. 

[ngbills]

Just now, BillsFanSD said:

I'm completely convinced that a lot of these people who nitpick every JA pass don't watch any other NFL games.  

 

Was the ball placement the Beasley reception perfect?  No, obviously not.  But literally every QB in every game has passes like that.  Nobody has the kind of pinpoint 100% accuracy on every pass that certain folks seem to expect from Allen.

Read above. Context. It was not about Josh is not allowed to miss that pass. It was about if he did miss it or not. Honesty is the best policy. Yes he did. Move on. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, BillsFanSD said:

I'm completely convinced that a lot of these people who nitpick every JA pass don't watch any other NFL games.  

 

Was the ball placement the Beasley reception perfect?  No, obviously not.  But literally every QB in every game has passes like that.  Nobody has the kind of pinpoint 100% accuracy on every pass that certain folks seem to expect from Allen.

A lot of people also don't realize that Tyreek Hill is going to make up for a lot of ground that Cole Beasley doesn't cover. 

[ngbills]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

It wasn't a bad pass. It wasn't perfectly placed, but it wasn't a miss. 

Yes, that is a miss. If a better placed ball is a TD then that would call that a miss. Defending Josh at all costs makes so many so blind to reality. You are allowed to like Josh and still admit he missed on a throw. He wont get mad at you. It is ok. 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Yes, that is a miss. If a better placed ball is a TD then that would call that a miss. Defending Josh at all costs makes so many so blind to reality. You are allowed to like Josh and still admit he missed on a throw. He wont get mad at you. It is ok. 

No, it's not a miss.  Josh took and connected on the higher percentage play.  Yes, it looks like the possibility was there to have led him Beasley and make a bigger play.  However, in attempting the leading pass you increase the degree of difficulty of the pass and increase the odds of an incompletion.

 

The game situation did not call for taking an increased level of risk to reap the reward of the immediate touchdown.  The secure victory we just witnessed was due in large part to Josh taking the high percentage completion that was available.

[Warcodered]

 

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

No, it's not a miss.  Josh took and connected on the higher percentage play.  Yes, it looks like the possibility was there to have led him Beasley and make a bigger play.  However, in attempting the leading pass you increase the degree of difficulty of the pass and increase the odds of an incompletion.

 

The game situation did not call for taking an increased level of risk to reap the reward of the immediate touchdown.  The secure victory we just witnessed was due in large part to Josh taking the high percentage completion that was available.

It was not higher risk. It was an inaccurate pass. Just stop with the he purposely threw it there. The pass he threw was more risky. 

[Einstein's Dog]

5 minutes ago, ngbills said:

It was not higher risk. It was an inaccurate pass. Just stop with the he purposely threw it there. The pass he threw was more risky. 

The pass Josh threw was not high risk, just stop with that. 

 

I'm sorry you're upset that Josh had a stellar day.

[ngbills]

6 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The pass Josh threw was not high risk, just stop with that. 

 

I'm sorry you're upset that Josh had a stellar day.

Oh how I wish you could ask Josh about that play. I would bet money he say " yep, missed on that one. Beasley made a great catch to bail me out".