Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Putin said: I’m sorry but when you are wearing your company’s uniform you are working , unless you are on the way home AGAIN MOST of us , obviously NFL players are special and we are all beneath them The example that you used was taking a knee with a line of 20. If the cashier does that they are not able to do their job. If a NFL player takes a knee during the anthem they are still able to do their job. That’s why I used the 3rd down example. That’s the same thing as the cashier with the line. The employee, in that case, is deciding between doing their job and protesting. It’s apples and oranges. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 minute ago, DCOrange said: If we're trying to make the analogy accurate, would my boss care if I'm kneeling at my computer instead of sitting or standing? No, she would not. It's not like the players are refusing to play (at least not yet). Kneeling doesn't impact their ability to do their job in any way whatsoever. I’m just trying to make a point that many of us don’t have the right to protest or do anything but our jobs while we are on the company’s time , 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Just now, Putin said: I’m just trying to make a point that many of us don’t have the right to protest or do anything but our jobs while we are on the company’s time , Many do though 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Many do though Most probably don’t ! Edited June 14, 2020 by Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCOrange Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Putin said: I’m just trying to make a point that many of us don’t have the right to protest or do anything but our jobs while we are on the company’s time , They aren't really doing it on the company's time in the way that you're imagining one of us doing it though. They're doing it before their work actually begins. It just so happens that professional athletes are in the public eye before they actually start working in a way that we are not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Putin said: Most probably don’t That’s a pretty bold assumption. I work for a very large Fortune 500 company. We are encouraged to speak up and speak out. I think that’s probably the case in most large companies. It comes, in part, for fear of looking discriminatory but also to make people feel heard. It’s as much of a workplace culture thing as anything. The difference is that I don’t have an audience. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Putin said: Most probably don’t But for the ones that do...protesting is fine, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Anyone who says they’re going to kneel now, after doing and saying nothing for three years to support Kaepernick, should be hooted off the stage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 minute ago, DCOrange said: They aren't really doing it on the company's time in the way that you're imagining one of us doing it though. They're doing it before their work actually begins. It just so happens that professional athletes are in the public eye before they actually start working in a way that we are not. Nah. They are working. And they are given permission to protest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, dickleyjones said: But for the ones that do...protesting is fine, right? Obviously !!! But I’m sure that most of business owners would never allow his/hers employees to do anything in their stores that would make them lose customers, right ?? Edited June 14, 2020 by Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, mannc said: Anyone who says they’re going to kneel now, after doing and saying nothing for three years to support Kaepernick, should be hooted off the stage. They almost have to kneel out of necessity at this point at the risk of a character assassination by the angry mob. We are seeing people lose their livelihoods over this. The cancel culture is real strong right now. Edited June 14, 2020 by Bangarang 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I would expect just about every player on every team to kneel This year. What will be interesting is whether the message will be lost/diluted because “everyone is now doing it.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 hour ago, dickleyjones said: If it is not offensive then it does nothing. It is a protest. It is not meant to be polite. getting a reaction of offense is exactly the point! Perhaps, but that doesn’t answer why we refuse to accept the explanations offered by those who choose to take a knee. They’ve explained time and time again why, but people have this obsession to make it about something else entirely. I’m curious about that mentality, not the protest itself. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: Perhaps, but that doesn’t answer why we refuse to accept the explanations offered by those who choose to take a knee. They’ve explained time and time again why, but people have this obsession to make it about something else entirely. I’m curious about that mentality, not the protest itself. it is because people tend to have a very difficult time seeing things as others see them. they can only see something from their perspective. it is unfortunate, but quite human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 57 minutes ago, Putin said: How many people here can peacefully protest at work ? No not during lunch break but during actual work time that you are getting paid for , can a cashier at a grocery get on his knee for 5 minutes and peacefully protest while there’s 20 people waiting line ? Or maybe I can call my boss and tell him I had to shut down the rig ( oil production) because my guys wanted to peacefully protest? Most of us have two options either follow the company policy OR find another job GO BILLS !!! Their parent organization, the NFL, is saying they’re OK with it. So it has no bearing on what your organization does or does not do. And spare me the protest at work stuff with respect to this. Players work at practice, work at film study, and so on. If you want to say the only time they work is on game day, then strictly speaking they are not working during playing of the anthem as they are not actually playing during that time. When I go to games I stand. I would rather everyone stand and not go to the restroom, or to get a beer, or start cheering before the song is actually over. I also get their protest, and I understand their position that they do not intend disrespect to soldiers. From you user user name it seems clear you want to dictate terms to others. That is not how our country works. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, dickleyjones said: it is because people tend to have a very difficult time seeing things as others see them. they can only see something from their perspective. it is unfortunate, but quite human. Cuts both ways. Cuts every which way actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Just now, dickleyjones said: it is because people tend to have a very difficult time seeing things as others see them. they can only see something from their perspective. it is unfortunate, but quite human. I appreciate this and agree, but I’m still trying to get to the “why.” Human nature is one important variable to be sure but what’s at the root of that evolution? There are tribal elements involved but it goes farther than that, I think. Anyway, I appreciate the incite you offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 15 minutes ago, K-9 said: I appreciate this and agree, but I’m still trying to get to the “why.” Human nature is one important variable to be sure but what’s at the root of that evolution? There are tribal elements involved but it goes farther than that, I think. Anyway, I appreciate the incite you offered. Like all roots of evolution it is about survival. Those who did not fully trust their circle died young. Now that we have evolved beyond that we humans struggle with the forces of blind loyalty vs considering the opposite viewpoint. And really, you only have one brain you can only ever see things from your viewpoint. you have to make an effort to get your brain to see things from someone else's point of view. an effort many don't have the time or willpower to make. and i agree with @mead107 it cuts all ways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Artful Dodger said: I voted "no" because I don't want to be reminded about political or social problems when I'm watching sports. Sports is supposed to be an escape. On the other hand, if it makes the players happy and they play harder and as a result, the Bills get one or two more wins, I'm all in favor of it. Politics have always been a part of sports and sports have always been a part of politics. From Roman Emperors crowning gladiators and charioteers with laurel wreathes to Presidents throwing out the first baseball and inviting champions to the White House. Sports are part of society as is politics. They can't help but mix and always have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 8 hours ago, StHustle said: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29307489/texans-jj-watt-says-taking-knee-american-flag Not sure a head coach has kneeled with players during the anthem. Interesting. I love to see that Watt get it. I'm really interested to see how the board would feel if McDermott announced he would kneel with his players. I personally would love to see it as long as he truly wants to protest the American government, but not if he is simply doing it to build some sort of stronger report with the players. I'd really love to see McDermott keep it out of the media. Whether a player or coach chooses to kneel or stand - that is their choice. Not knowing them, I won't judge them. I will, however, respect their right to choose. In the future, I'd like to see them keep the anthem out of the pregame ceremonies. It's relatively new. It is for show, anyway. Just get rid of it. Play it while the players are still in the locker room, or don't play it at all. It's a football game. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Putin said: How many people here can peacefully protest at work ? No not during lunch break but during actual work time that you are getting paid for , can a cashier at a grocery get on his knee for 5 minutes and peacefully protest while there’s 20 people waiting line ? Or maybe I can call my boss and tell him I had to shut down the rig ( oil production) because my guys wanted to peacefully protest? Most of us have two options either follow the company policy OR find another job GO BILLS !!! I think “actual work time” for football players spans from the open kickoff to the final gun. I suppose you can include pregame warmups to be “actual work” as well. If players have permission from their teams to kneel if they want to, how are they shirking their work responsibilities, anyway? The 49ers, for instance gave CK, Reid, and others express permission to kneel in 2016. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Putin said: How many people here can peacefully protest at work ? No not during lunch break but during actual work time that you are getting paid for , can a cashier at a grocery get on his knee for 5 minutes and peacefully protest while there’s 20 people waiting line ? Or maybe I can call my boss and tell him I had to shut down the rig ( oil production) because my guys wanted to peacefully protest? Most of us have two options either follow the company policy OR find another job GO BILLS !!! News Flash: NFL players are not the equivalent of an hourly stiff at Jiffy Lube. They have options that you and I don't. News Flash: the league, "the company" in your analogy has now said that its policy against kneeling was wrong so if players kneel this year it is with the blessing of their "boss". Update your analogy to "how may of us can peacefully protest at work if our boss gives us the okay?" Answer: everyone. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, dickleyjones said: Like all roots of evolution it is about survival. Those who did not fully trust their circle died young. Now that we have evolved beyond that we humans struggle with the forces of blind loyalty vs considering the opposite viewpoint. And really, you only have one brain you can only ever see things from your viewpoint. you have to make an effort to get your brain to see things from someone else's point of view. an effort many don't have the time or willpower to make. and i agree with @mead107 it cuts all ways. Yeah, I suspect it’s a vestigial element of our psyches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 1 hour ago, mannc said: Anyone who says they’re going to kneel now, after doing and saying nothing for three years to support Kaepernick, should be hooted off the stage. I gotta strongly disagree here. They should get credit for being able to evolve in their views. Few movements are adopted by the masses initially; all of them have depended on changed points of view to succeed. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Do we have to have a new thread about every single person who says they are going to kneel, then rehash the exact same arguments over and over and over again? It's growing quite tiresome. Why not just have one "kneeling" subforum where the people who love to get into pissing matches can have at it so we can stick to the actual game on here? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 If it makes the team stronger and they win more games, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, H2o said: Do we have to have a new thread about every single person who says they are going to kneel, then rehash the exact same arguments over and over and over again? It's growing quite tiresome. Why not just have one "kneeling" subforum where the people who love to get into pissing matches can have at it so we can stick to the actual game on here? I admire the optimism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 22 minutes ago, Gugny said: I'd really love to see McDermott keep it out of the media. Whether a player or coach chooses to kneel or stand - that is their choice. Not knowing them, I won't judge them. I will, however, respect their right to choose. In the future, I'd like to see them keep the anthem out of the pregame ceremonies. It's relatively new. It is for show, anyway. Just get rid of it. Play it while the players are still in the locker room, or don't play it at all. It's a football game. I like the anthem being played pre-game. How about the television networks just not show it? The entire television audience doesn't have to see the anthem or any players protesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 It would appear JJ Watt and others have a mature understanding of what constitutional rights mean, and that protesting injustice and blatant racism during the national anthem is what Americans call standing up for the true ideals of America. Those that would try to twist doing so into an affront to our brave and honored service members current and former are perpetuating a known falsehood and acting in an UN AMERICAN way, and should give considered thought as to why they would purposefully continue to push this falsehood, that can only further divided our country. As a former United States Marine I find this abhorrent self serving behavior reprehensible. Nations unfriendly to our Democratic Republic use this thinking to drive a wedge into the very social fabric of our Great and honorable Nation, it must stop. Semper FI America!!! 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Kevi Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Hard for me to pick from those two. Too many things these days are presented as binary options. I support the movement for racial equality I do not consider America and the American Government/Police as the same thing so I feel it's still a bit of a misappropriation to do it during the anthem. Not really that it's offensive, but I personally think it steps on their own message by alienating many folks who may otherwise sympathize with the cause. My only real issue with it is that I don't let my employees protest or make political stands while at work, that's a dangerous game. As a matter of fact that's the rule at my bar- everyone knows "no religion or politics". But if the NFL (their employer) has no problem with it, who am I to register an opinion? But I'm not particularly offended by it, either. How about a choice for "tolerance", let them to do whatever they feel is right. I do hope this movement yields some well-overdue reform in the way we deal with race relations, and I believe the spirit of America will drive us forward and we will come out a better society for it. My final thoughts are that the amount of people who will stop following the NFL because of this is miniscule. Even the staunchest conservatives (if they are NFL fans) will trash this publicly but will still watch the games. And this year nobody can point to anything and say it's kneelings' fault because covid and our suspect politicians have already knee-capped this year. Seems like the time is right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 30 minutes ago, Mickey said: News Flash: NFL players are not the equivalent of an hourly stiff at Jiffy Lube. They have options that you and I don't. News Flash: the league, "the company" in your analogy has now said that its policy against kneeling was wrong so if players kneel this year it is with the blessing of their "boss". Update your analogy to "how may of us can peacefully protest at work if our boss gives us the okay?" Answer: everyone. So they have more privileges than the common worker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukestreetking Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Spent 10+ yrs in Iraq/Afghanistan doing yada, yada, yada. Painful memories of losing friends. Am I heartbroken when someone kneels for the anthem (and flag)? Yes. Does that person have the right to do it? Also yes. So, I'm left w seeking some middle ground, perhaps along the lines of Gugny's suggestion: just don't play the anthem anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Hooks Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 At this point I think it would save time and effort to post about people that WONT kneel. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone going against that grain next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 16 minutes ago, Mark Vader said: I like the anthem being played pre-game. How about the television networks just not show it? The entire television audience doesn't have to see the anthem or any players protesting. Yeah, I think it was always played pre-game, but not when players were on the field and definitely not televised. I'm all for it being played, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Mickey said: News Flash: NFL players are not the equivalent of an hourly stiff at Jiffy Lube. They have options that you and I don't. News Flash: the league, "the company" in your analogy has now said that its policy against kneeling was wrong so if players kneel this year it is with the blessing of their "boss". Update your analogy to "how may of us can peacefully protest at work if our boss gives us the okay?" Answer: everyone. How many of us have the ok ?? And yes if Boss gives the ok then the answer is obviously yes , but if that ok will divide the company then there will be a discussion and that’s where we are at the moment Edited June 14, 2020 by Putin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 O'Brien will be on both knees by week 8 begging to keep his job. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Kevi Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: It would appear JJ Watt and others have a mature understanding of what constitutional rights mean, and that protesting injustice and blatant racism during the national anthem is what Americans call standing up for the true ideals of America. Those that would try to twist doing so into an affront to our brave and honored service members current and former are perpetuating a known falsehood and acting in an UN AMERICAN way, and should give considered thought as to why they would purposefully continue to push this falsehood, that can only further divided our country. As a former United States Marine I find this abhorrent self serving behavior reprehensible. Nations unfriendly to our Democratic Republic use this thinking to drive a wedge into the very social fabric of our Great and honorable Nation, it must stop. Semper FI America!!! 100% agree with the sentiment of your post, but this is not a constitutional matter, and I think it just gets in the way to argue that. These players are on the clock, and getting paid for their time (very handsomely). Obviously if the NFL is cool with it then it's a non-issue, but the 1st amendment doesn't really play here. I mean, sure they "have the right" to do it, but the NFL "has the right" to sanction, penalize, or fire them for it. Obviously they won't do that though. It was easy when it was just kaep, now it's half the league or more. So now, even though this isn't a constitutional matter, I think it's more closely likened to a strike. The league can't really live without all the star players, so they have to deal with it. Thank you for your service! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said: So they have more privileges than the common worker? Their employer is saying they can protest. Why do you refuse to see that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) support Edited June 14, 2020 by RalphWilson'sNewWar Spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Putin said: How many of us have the ok ?? It does not matter. Get it through your head: the league is saying they are OK with it. You want to stop supporting them, fine. But quit making the false comparison between your employer and the NFL. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts