Dan Orlovsky just did AFCE QB rankings on ESPN. Had Allen at #3!

[FireChans]

Just now, MJS said:

He stated his opinion about Tua. He isn't saying that every single QB who has ever taken a snap in the NFL is automatically better than a rookie.

And he did about Burrow. Lol.

 

His opinion stinks and he’s far from alone.

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

or, I was being sarcastic on burrow.

 

But I should expect that kind of subtlety to be lost on the likes of you.

 

Why would you be sarcastic? The argument is the exact same as the one you actually believe. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And he did about Burrow. Lol.

 

His opinion stinks and he’s far from alone.

 

Deleted my response, because likely a moderator would have given me a vacation for it.

 

And sorry, you're just not worth it, pal.

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

Its just the fact that anyone who doesn't agree Allen is the second coming, has an "agenda."

 

P. S..... He is inaccurate. 

Ok, I'll take that criticism since I used the word "agenda".  Reality is, I generally like Orlovsky and the way he breaks down QB play, I just disagree with him saying Josh Allen is the 3rd best QB in our division.  I figured we needed something else to talk about besides Ed Oliver's DWI.  

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Deleted my response, because likely a moderator would have given me a vacation for it.

 

And sorry, you're just not worth it, pal.

 

And a coward too! Will you pick up your sword and fight, or will you perish like a dog?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Well, according to you, these top 40 college QBs are guaranteed NFL franchise QBs.   Go ahead, defend the chart!

Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-yds-player-career.html

 

That's you embellishing/exaggerating for effect. 

 

Nowhere did I say that.

 

 

But faulting analysts based on what we've seen so far is strange. 

 

 

Bills fans act like Allen has taken the league by storm or something. 

 

He had a horrible supporting cast in 2018 and was a rookie, he passed the ball poorly, ran the ball well. He played a lot like his Scouting Reports said he would.  

 

In 2019, he passed the ball better relative to his rookie self, ran the ball for TDs, but was a bottom 1/3rd QB. He played to the positive side of his Scouting Reports.  

 

2020, is his best setup yet. Continuity on the offensive line and Coaching staff, and the best skill talent he's ever had. 

 

 

 

[Dopey]

1) Fitz

2) Allen or Darnold: toss up

4) Stidham

 

My thought process is that we have the better team in the division, by far. Having said this, I went with who I think would do more with this talent this year. As it stands this year, if Fitz had our talent around him, he would be a runaway 1st. Allen and Darnold have way higher ceilings than Fitz, but still have a ton of work/improvement to do. I didn't include Tua due to him being a rookie and recovering from an injury. I don't think he starts for them unless Fitz gets hurt. I don't think Tua will be as good as Miami thinks he will be. Again, this is based on this year's teams.

 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And he did about Burrow. Lol.

 

His opinion stinks and he’s far from alone.

Why would you be sarcastic? The argument is the exact same as the one you actually believe. 

Neither QB's have played in the NFL and that's just a fact. We have busts all the time, even QB's that have been drafter very high and even first overall. It's not unreasonable to want to see if these guys can play well and succeed at the NFL level. There are QB's with great college careers that perform poorly in the NFL and QB's who had mediocre college careers who perform well in the NFL.

 

My opinion of both QB's will be based on how they perform in the NFL. Right now I don't have an opinion, really. We've just seen too many busts for anything to be certain.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I knew this would come up. 

 

The Bills made a projection when they drafted Allen. That his stature, physical gifts, intangibles, would outweigh the immediate inconsistency and rather low statistical production. 

 

Other analysts watch Tua, note his stature and injuries, but say that his high level of production and accuracy translate well to the pro-game.  

 

I don't fault analysts for watching Tua's college career and Allen's college career/pro career and concluding that Tua is better.

 

Allen has not led a top flight offense at Wyoming or in Buffalo, but this year is his best supporting cast yet.  

 

 

Huh?  Allen has 2 years of NFL tape...why are we talking college comparisons with Allen and Tua?  Allen is a rapidly ascending 2 year veteran who amassed 30 TD's, a double digit win season, and a playoff birth in his 2nd year in the league.

 

Do any of you even realize that Allen was SIXTH in the entire NFL in touchdowns?  And in just his 2nd season, while only starting and finishing 14 games last year, with 9 new starters, and utter scrubs opposite Brown at WR, with a team that led the league in dropped passes.  Not to mention, leads the NFL since entering the league in 4th quarter comeback wins (despite missing all or parts of 6 games over that span) where he was one of the highest rated passers in the whole NFL in the 4th quarter as well.  

 

So...who cares about Wyoming?  Not even relevant in a comparison.   

[CSBill]

Allen

Darnold

Fitz

Stidham

 

Tua is a backup until he proves otherwise.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

From what I remember his biggest supporters were Chris Simms and Orlovsky.

Simms always has and Orlovsky has been recent.  That’s what I like about Orlovsky...he remained open.  A lot of Analyst will stick to their guns no matter what.

[Royale with Cheese]

A sword fight on a message board?

[Malazan]

oh, wow, Allen being ranked #3 by some guy changed everything..every. thing.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

Just remember this thread if Tua becomes good or great. Not for an “I told you so”
 

but because everyone that’s up in arms about this will be the ones complaining about the Tua love just like they complain about Mahomes love. This same argument was had before 2018 season when Mahomes was getting training camp hype. 
 

if you’re complaining about this and the guy is good, I don’t want to hear any excuses like I’m still hearing with Mahomes. 
 

(not saying I predicted Mahomes or that Tua WILL be great)

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

11 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

That's you embellishing/exaggerating for effect. 

 

Nowhere did I say that.

 

 

But faulting analysts based on what we've seen so far is strange. 

 

 

Bills fans act like Allen has taken the league by storm or something. 

 

He had a horrible supporting cast in 2018 and was a rookie, he passed the ball poorly, ran the ball well. He played a lot like his Scouting Reports said he would.  

 

In 2019, he passed the ball better relative to his rookie self, ran the ball for TDs, but was a bottom 1/3rd QB. He played to the positive side of his Scouting Reports.  

 

2020, is his best setup yet. Continuity on the offensive line and Coaching staff, and the best skill talent he's ever had. 

 

 

 

 

Don't turn the subject back on Allen.  You specifically stated, "Tua led a Top 2 D1 football program to a National Championship. Look at his college statistics verses Josh Allen's."  This implies college statistics are a benchmark for being a NFL franchise QB.  I am asking you to back that statement up using the chart of all the best college QBs ranked by passing stats.  

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

That's you embellishing/exaggerating for effect. 

 

Nowhere did I say that.

 

 

But faulting analysts based on what we've seen so far is strange. 

 

 

Bills fans act like Allen has taken the league by storm or something. 

 

He had a horrible supporting cast in 2018 and was a rookie, he passed the ball poorly, ran the ball well. He played a lot like his Scouting Reports said he would.  

 

In 2019, he passed the ball better relative to his rookie self, ran the ball for TDs, but was a bottom 1/3rd QB. He played to the positive side of his Scouting Reports.  

 

2020, is his best setup yet. Continuity on the offensive line and Coaching staff, and the best skill talent he's ever had. 

 

 

 

‘Bottom third QB’ according to what?

[TigerJ]

People once rated Josh Rosen ahead of Josh Allen too.  Some players just seem to have to prove everything, and some are given a pass.  That's just the way media works.

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

oh, wow, Allen being ranked #3 by some guy changed everything..every. thing.

Or... we are just looking for things to talk about until the season starts back up. If you have better things to do, feel free to go do them...

[Straight Hucklebuck]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Huh?  Allen has 2 years of NFL tape...why are we talking college comparisons with Allen and Tua?  Allen is a rapidly ascending 2 year veteran who amassed 30 TD's, a double digit win season, and a playoff birth in his 2nd year in the league.

 

Do any of you even realize that Allen was SIXTH in the entire NFL in touchdowns?  And in just his 2nd season, while only starting and finishing 14 games last year, with 9 new starters, and utter scrubs opposite Brown at WR, with a team that led the league in dropped passes.  Not to mention, leads the NFL since entering the league in 4th quarter comeback wins (despite missing all or parts of 6 games over that span) where he was one of the highest rated passers in the whole NFL in the 4th quarter as well.  

 

So...who cares about Wyoming?  Not even relevant in a comparison.   

 

Huh? 

 

How is Wyoming not relevant when an analyst is ranking Tua over Allen? 

 

What does the analyst have to go on? He has Tua's college performance only and draft position verses Allen's college production, draft status and first two years as a professional.

 

There was a book on Allen coming from college into the pros. The cons in his Scouting Report have not been totally unproven by his first two years. 

 

The thing is, some Bills fans can't even have a debate. They are so focused on how offended they are. 

 

Yes Allen was 6th in total TDs. He also was 30th in ypg, 32nd in completion percentage, 23rd in rating, 21st in passing TDs and his offense scored 19.6 ppg against a weak schedule, with a defense that allowed 16.2 ppg. 

 

Tua is shorter in stature, not an elite athlete, not elite arm strength, and Greg Cosell said he is a system QB, not transcendent. So not all analysts are Dan O. But I don't get the outrage over that ranking. Allen can silence all the critics this season.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Don't turn the subject back on Allen.  You specifically stated, "Tua led a Top 2 D1 football program to a National Championship. Look at his college statistics verses Josh Allen's."  This implies college statistics are a benchmark for being a NFL franchise QB.  I am asking you to back that statement up using the chart of all the best college QBs ranked by passing stats.  

 

YES I DID SAY THAT, IN REGARDS TO THE OP WHICH WAS WHINING ABOUT DAN O RANKING TUA HIGHER THAN ALLEN. 

 

Yeah an analyst watched one guy win a National Championship and watched the other guy throw for 16 TDs in his final season at Wyoming. 

 

Not everyone agrees with the Bills FO projection on Allen, and that's okay. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Huh? 

 

How is Wyoming not relevant when an analyst is ranking Tua over Allen? 

 

What does the analyst have to go on? He has Tua's college performance only and draft position verses Allen's college production, draft status and first two years as a professional.

lmfao he has two years of professional tape to go on wtf is this

[Straight Hucklebuck]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

‘Bottom third QB’ according to what?

 

Math

 

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

lmfao he has two years of professional tape to go on wtf is this

 

You can't read. So lmfao. 

 

In the statement you bolded I said "FIRST TWO YEARS AS A PROFESSIONAL"

 

Not every analyst is blown away with Josh Allen. To me, that's okay. Allen can prove them all wrong this season. What's so bad about that conclusion at this point?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

YES I DID SAY THAT, IN REGARDS TO THE OP WHICH WAS WHINING ABOUT DAN O RANKING TUA HIGHER THAN ALLEN. 

 

Yeah an analyst watched one guy win a National Championship and watched the other guy throw for 16 TDs in his final season at Wyoming. 

 

Not everyone agrees with the Bills FO projection on Allen, and that's okay. 

 

 

 

Are you yelling in ALL CAPS!  Lol

 

I guess your not going to defend your point implying college statistics are the benchmark for NFL success.  Like you said, "Yes is did say that".

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Are you yelling in ALL CAPS!  Lol

 

I guess your not going to defend your point implying college statistics are the benchmark for NFL success.  Like you said, "Yes is did say that".

 

Dan O ranked Tua higher. Why?

 

Is Tua taller - No. 

 

Does he have better arm strength - No. 

 

So why? Better college, better competition, more production, more accuracy, National Championships. 

 

 

Not once did I make the argument that I agree with Dan O, or base all QB judgments on college production. That's you putting words in my mouth.

 

Dan O watched the tape, looked over the numbers and came to that conclusion.  

 

 

But I don't understand all the outrage from some Bills fans at this. 

 

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Dan O ranked Tua higher. Why?

 

Is Tua taller - No. 

 

Does he have better arm strength - No. 

 

So why? Better college, better competition, more production, more accuracy, National Championships. 

 

 

Not once did I make the argument that I agree with Dan O, or base all QB judgments on college production. That's you putting words in my mouth.

 

Dan O watched the tape, looked over the numbers and came to that conclusion.  

 

 

But I don't understand all the outrage from some Bills fans at this. 

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly not outraged, I'm not the one shouting in ALL CAPS.

 

There you go again, implying college production is a benchmark for evaluating NFL success.  I provided you a list of the top college QBs by production who the majority of them are not even in the NFL nor had success in the NFL.  

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

I'm certainly not outraged, I'm not the one shouting in ALL CAPS.

 

There you go again, implying college production is a benchmark for evaluating NFL success.  I provided you a list of the top college QBs by production who the majority of them are not even in the NFL nor had success in the NFL.  

 

Whatever man. 
 

Good for you.

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Whatever man. 
 

Good for you.

 

 

 

Yeah whatever man.  I couldn't defend that chart either.

[eball]

Wow, six pages in three hours...somebody knows how to get Bills fans riled up.

 

I can't wait for the season to play out because I have my own expectations for what Josh Allen is going to accomplish and none of this crap matters one iota.

[GoBills808]

college stats lol

[msw2112]

I'm not too hot and bothered about this.  Dan O is entitled to his opinion, even though I disagree with it.  Allen's numbers are not great, but he does so many things that statistics don't show.  He's a great leader, plays with passion and seems to have the 4th quarter clutch gene.  He needs to improve his accuracy and stop putting the ball on the carpet.  He can (and I believe will) improve in those areas.  Tua may turn out to be great, but I always take QBs from certain programs with a grain of salt.  Tua had an NFL caliber offensive line, NFL caliber WRs, and an NFL caliber set of receivers.  He's certainly talented, but he was also surrounded by talent that far exceeded that of his opponents (except for maybe LSU and Clemson).  He won't have that benefit with the 'Fins and he's coming off a pretty serious injury.  Plus, the number of first round QBs that bust in the NFL is pretty high.  We'll see.

[McGahee]

3 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Kind of. He tends to go back and forth on him.  I just can't believe he would rank a rookie over a QB who just took his team to the playoffs.  

They kind of went to the playoffs DESPITE Allen.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

college stats lol

 

Don't forget those all-important national titles.

 

[teef]

1 minute ago, McGahee said:

They kind of went to the playoffs DESPITE Allen.

and this thread just took another interesting turn.

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

No. Nobody is saying that. You are arguing something that nobody else is arguing. I think you are trying to make some kind of dumb point but really you are just being dumb. Both Tua and Stidham are unknown.

There are literally people here scoffing at where Tua is ranked because he hasn’t taken any NFL snaps and hasn’t accomplished anything yet. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

3 hours ago, RiotAct said:

the way I see it, Darnold and Allen are pretty close (slight edge to Allen).   But in no way should whoever the Dolphins or Patriots trot out there be ranked higher.

Are you serious darnold could not beat our back ups and had total break downs last year  where he said I suck so bad and I see ghost out there.  If Allen did that the fans here would never let him forget it.

[Greg S]

3 minutes ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

Are you serious darnold could not beat our back ups and had total break downs last year  where he said I suck so bad and I see ghost out there.  If Allen did that the fans here would never let him forget it.

 

Allen plays on a better team and has a better coach. Both QB's have been up and down. Allen has been the more successful QB mostly because of the team he plays on.

[MJS]

22 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

There are literally people here scoffing at where Tua is ranked because he hasn’t taken any NFL snaps and hasn’t accomplished anything yet. 

Of course they are. But you are saying that's the same as saying that anyone who has ever taken snaps in the NFL is automatically better than him. Nobody is saying that.

 

Tua shouldn't be ranked ahead of Darnold and Allen, in my opinion. If you don't agree and want to rank a rookie higher, fine. But it doesn't make everyone dumb for wanting to see a rookie play in the NFL before ranking him above two other divisional starters.

[buffaloboyinATL]

32 minutes ago, teef said:

and this thread just took another interesting turn.

We aim to please...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

And there are Fromm fans out there that believe Allen isn’t even the best QB on the Bills. But it’s silly to get all worked up over opinions. 

[buffaloboyinATL]

39 minutes ago, McGahee said:

They kind of went to the playoffs DESPITE Allen.

Seriously?  He had an NFL leading 5 game winning drives last year. (tied with Watson and Wilson) I am sure the detractors will claim that we shouldn't have been behind in the first place, but reality is we won several games because of him last season, not in spite of... I respectfully disagree with your take.

[Bangarang]

35 minutes ago, MJS said:

Of course they are. But you are saying that's the same as saying that anyone who has ever taken snaps in the NFL is automatically better than him. Nobody is saying that.

 

Tua shouldn't be ranked ahead of Darnold and Allen, in my opinion. If you don't agree and want to rank a rookie higher, fine. But it doesn't make everyone dumb for wanting to see a rookie play in the NFL before ranking him above two other divisional starters.

Do you think anyone would have a problem with his rankings if Allen was 1st and Tua was 2nd? Probably not. Nobody seems to have an issue that Tua is ranked ahead of Stidham. 

[78thealltimegreat]

Well that settles it cut Allen and let him go somewhere where the fans and radio hosts actually want him say Dallas if they get tired of Daks contract antics and go ask Miami for say a 6th rounder for Josh Rosen...since over half this board thought at the time the Bills drafted the wrong Josh