Anybody want to go on record about Josh?

[K-9]

Josh Allen will be fitted for a gold jacket five years after his last game. Book it. 
 

He won’t have figured it out until his 4th season, though, so the naysayers will have plenty of ammo until then. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

The raw designation starts to lose its luster if he gets through 16 games this season. 

 

He does that and its 44 games played, 43 started. 

 

 

Raw only counts for so long, you're right, but I certainly think he gets three full seasons before he's "all growns up."

[K-9]

1 minute ago, eball said:

 

Raw only counts for so long, you're right, but I certainly think he gets three full seasons before he's "all growns up."

Josh is gonna be an example of the old school axiom of it taking 1,000 attempts before you really have a good gauge. Given his level of inexperience coming in, he’s getting his three years of carrying a clipboard while actually starting. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

17 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Is he trending in the right direction, meaning did he improve from year 1 to year 2, even if he is still in the bottom 1/3 based on chosen metrics?  Are the coaches having an impact?

Agree again.

 

He did improve greatly from Year One to Year Two on his performance. And I’ll say again, I throw out 2018 because he was a rookie and his supporting skill players and offensive line was horrendous. 
 

The key now will be the improvement towards the NFL standard, not just a comparison to the 2018/2019 Allen.

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

13 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Agree again.

 

He did improve greatly from Year One to Year Two on his performance. And I’ll say again, I throw out 2018 because he was a rookie and his supporting skill players and offensive line was horrendous. 
 

The key now will be the improvement towards the NFL standard, not just a comparison to the 2018/2019 Allen.

 

 

Well, if he was drafted on potential and he is trending in the right direction, hard to fault the fans for being optimistic and for some professional pundits who might feel the same, especially with the addition of more infused talent.  There's a re-energized local and national excitement around the Bills that hasn't been around in a long time, and you can't deny Allen isn't a part of that excitement.   

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[Garrett33]

Maybe a stupid question but how do I vote?

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

2 minutes ago, Garrett33 said:

Maybe a stupid question but how do I vote?

 

Go to the top of the page, click "Show Vote Options", and then make your selection.

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

 

heart doesn't win you superbowls lol. talent does

 

And Stafford is a far superior passer than Allen. Josh needs to work on his accuracy and start racking up 300+ yard games 

Stafford’s talent hasn’t won any Superbowls either.  It takes both.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

31 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Well, if he was drafted on potential and he is trending in the right direction, hard to fault the fans for being optimistic and for some professional pundits who might feel the same, especially with the addition of more infused talent.  There's a re-energized local and national excitement around the Bills that hasn't been around in a long time, and you can't deny Allen isn't a part of that excitement.   

 

Nobody is denying Allen is a part of the excitement, or that finally there are legitimate expectations for the team. 

 

The only thing I opined was that I am not sure Allen will improve enough to be Top 10. 

 

We have never seen that from him at Wyoming or in the NFL.  

 

That's it. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[billsfan89]

I think he makes a moderate improvement in 2020. I can see a 500-600 yard improvement in passing, similar rushing stats (500+ rushing yards and 7+ TD's), 5-6 more passing TD's and a 60% or better completion percentage, and 12 or less turnovers (fumbles and INT's combined.) I think that puts him knocking on the top 10 of QB's in the NFL. That would put him over 4000 yards total, close mid 20's in passing TD's and well over 30 total TD's all with a 60% completion percentage. 

 

Those stats aren't gaudy but Josh's passing stats are going to be deflated (hopefully) by nursing leads late in games and a good rushing attack. In context if Josh put up that kind of season on an 11+ win team the conversation around Josh is that he is a legit QB. I think Josh does have a lot he needs to work on, his short passing game and mid passing game and footwork have come a long way but still needs to add a level of polish to it. His long range passing has to improve significantly and how he processes the game has to improve. He also needs to throw with better anticipation. 

 

In 2020 I think Josh can improve upon some of these aspects but I don't think he is going to get where he needs to be on all of them. And honestly that's not a bad thing, QB's take time to develop unless you are a once in a generation QB. Some of the top QB's in the league take a long time to hit their strides as top 10-5 QB's for a prolonged period of time. Russell Wilson, Big Ben, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and so many other top QB's of the last decade didn't hit their best years until 4-5 years into their starting careers. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

56 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Raw only counts for so long, you're right, but I certainly think he gets three full seasons before he's "all growns up."

 

I agree, and never made the case that he will not get any better from Year 2 Allen. 

 

I just question if he can reliably crack Top 10.

[Figster]

The power forward /QB is powering its way to the forefront IMO. Lamar Jackson is a great example. Is Jackson going to beat you throwing for 300 + yards? Probably not. Make no mistake as an opposing DC, Lamar Jackson can and will beat you with his arm and legs. 

 

So while this may not put Lamar Jackson in the higher echelon of QB's from a passing perspective.

 

Lamar Jackson is one of the hardest QB's in the NFL to defend against in my humble opinion.

[JESSEFEFFER]

I sense we will be having some sort of argument about by which measure do we say he is "Top 10" or whatever.  In fact, to be even having that debate would be a good sign.  It is rare for the starting QB of a regular playoff contenting franchise not to be thought of as a top performer.  That's the way it works. 

 

I think Josh will be at a minimum the equal of Joe Flacco as a passer.  The other offscript, playmaking traits are mostly a bonus beyond what most other QBs offer but do get him in trouble at times as well.  He is working his way up from the bottom and entering 2020 as about #20 or so but trending towards the top.

Edited May 15, 2020 by JESSEFEFFER

[Figster]

26 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

I agree, and never made the case that he will not get any better from Year 2 Allen. 

 

I just question if he can reliably crack Top 10.

Its a good question.  Given the talent Allen now has around him.

 

Its about to be be answered...

[TheyCallMeAndy]

16 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Statically. He's 10x the gamer and leader Newton is. 

I'm catching some weird looks, but seriously. Newton had a shot to dive on a fumble in the Super Bowl and decided not to. Don't think for a second that choice didn't cost him years worth of credibility and respect from his teammates.

[Figster]

58 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I think he makes a moderate improvement in 2020. I can see a 500-600 yard improvement in passing, similar rushing stats (500+ rushing yards and 7+ TD's), 5-6 more passing TD's and a 60% or better completion percentage, and 12 or less turnovers (fumbles and INT's combined.) I think that puts him knocking on the top 10 of QB's in the NFL. That would put him over 4000 yards total, close mid 20's in passing TD's and well over 30 total TD's all with a 60% completion percentage. 

 

Those stats aren't gaudy but Josh's passing stats are going to be deflated (hopefully) by nursing leads late in games and a good rushing attack. In context if Josh put up that kind of season on an 11+ win team the conversation around Josh is that he is a legit QB. I think Josh does have a lot he needs to work on, his short passing game and mid passing game and footwork have come a long way but still needs to add a level of polish to it. His long range passing has to improve significantly and how he processes the game has to improve. He also needs to throw with better anticipation. 

 

In 2020 I think Josh can improve upon some of these aspects but I don't think he is going to get where he needs to be on all of them. And honestly that's not a bad thing, QB's take time to develop unless you are a once in a generation QB. Some of the top QB's in the league take a long time to hit their strides as top 10-5 QB's for a prolonged period of time. Russell Wilson, Big Ben, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and so many other top QB's of the last decade didn't hit their best years until 4-5 years into their starting careers. 

 Something often overlooked in assessment is Josh Allen hasn't dumped the ball of much to date. Allen also hasn't gone to a TE security blanket perhaps as much as other young signal callers IMO. The types of things that pad the stats, increase completion %, and add up in the passing totals.

 

I think with the talent Buffalo now has at RB its part of Allens game that can and will show a marked improvent this season and may give Josh Allen the 300 yard passing games everyone is looking for IMO.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Figster

[Bss]

I think if Josh can become around average with the deep ball, enough to make the defenders respect it and open up the short to medium range, hes at least an above average, top 16 qb. Needs more work in decision making if he wants to make it to the top 10 

[Don Otreply]

I think the only measure is wins, regular and post season. I think he may very well hit top ten what ever that is. 

[Hampton Josh fan]

6 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Cam won a Heisman, won a National Championship, was drafted #1 overall, threw for 4,000 yards right away in the NFL, won an MVP. 

 

Josh was never an elite player in lower level college, was drafted on his skill set not his production on the field, and thus far has not shown to be a consistent NFL passer. 

 

I think in Buffalo we overrate the work ethic, the blue collar, the swell guy, and underrate winning and production. Like Buffalo is the only team out there studying their playbooks and working hard.  

 

We also love to declare war on "me-first" guys. Cam was the face of the Panthers for 8-9 seasons. 

 

 

 

Who cares what any of these guys do in college. We're talking about a guy that had some early success and cancerized his career and the trajectory of the franchise by injuries and moreover not being likeable with teammates, management and ultimately the fan base. In two years, Josh has established leadership skills, unselfishness, (he blames himself for losses) and clutch 4th qtr play. Root against him at your own peril. 

[Hampton Josh fan]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

Josh did not have a higher ceiling than Cam did as a prospect.

We had no idea about Cam"s me first, team second mentality. Any time you see a guy in a goofy different outfit in every post game press conference, he's trying to be the story. Josh will be low key and lead by example. 

[JMF2006]

5 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

Josh reminds me of a young Elway.

 

*Elway didn't win until the Broncos boasted the best rushing attack in football, led by one of the great RBs this league has seen.

 

Josh will not carry this team to glory, trying to be a hero.  If it happens, it'll be on the back of a stud rushing attack, complimented by Allen's "gameness" i.e. his ability to make something out of nothing, with an important throw here and there.

 

You can say the same about Jimbo,Thurman put him over the top.

 

 

Post /2

 

What makes me happy is that 83% think he will be a real good QB

 

Another 13 percent think he will be ok.

 

So 96% are behind him and only 4% think he will wash out.

 

Way to be Bills Mafia that's what this young man needs every fan solidly behind him  

Edited May 15, 2020 by JMF2006
2 posts combined need to space them

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Hampton Josh fan said:

We had no idea about Cam"s me first, team second mentality. Any time you see a guy in a goofy different outfit in every post game press conference, he's trying to be the story. Josh will be low key and lead by example. 

That’s not their ceiling lol.

[The Dean]

First rule of a poll (even a completely useless, non scientific poll like this): The response choices should cover ALL possible responses. 

 

There is a big gap between "top 10" and the bottom half. What is he's terrific and gets re-signed but is about the 12th best in the NFL? In a period where there are generally great QBs that could still be considered VERY good. In a time where the NFL's QBs are pretty bad, well that isn't very good.

[LABILLBACKER]

I think Josh will have a very good career. Maybe not top 5, but he should be consistently 8-12 every year in production and qb rating. He won't ever be Brady, Brees, Manning or Rodgers but he be a top tier qb capable of leading a team to a SB or two......

[John from Riverside]

22 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Cam Newton without the MVP season.

Now who’s going to pick up a sword and fight?

Challenge Accepted

I’m going to say somewhere between top 8 to 10 qb in league and is a career bill

[Logic]

I like Josh, I'm rooting hard for Josh, and I see it as totally reasonable that he could become a top tier NFL quarterback. Nothing would make me happier. He's incredibly easy to root for and is the PERFECT guy to be the face of the franchise for the next decade+.

That said, I voted for "doesn't get re-signed by the Bills" because I wanted to vote with my head, not my heart.

As things stand RIGHT NOW based on Josh's play through two seasons, he's a bottom third QB in this league. I believe he CAN improve significantly, and he now has the pieces around him to do so. Until I see it happen, though, I don't feel comfortable predicting that the Bills will be comfortable handing him 30+ million a season. He has work to do. 

It's also not out of the realm of possibility that he gets Fromm'd. Don't @ me.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

It's also not out of the realm of possibility that he gets Fromm'd. Don't @ me.

You've just become TwistofFate's new best friend.

 

[Bangarang]

30 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Challenge Accepted

I’m going to say somewhere between top 8 to 10 qb in league and is a career bill

Josh is a weird cat. One minute he’s doing something amazing where I think he’s going to be the best QB in the league. The next he does something so head scratching that it makes me wonder if he has a crippling gambling problem and is trying to work the spread.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Bangarang

[JESSEFEFFER]

He is inclined to not give up on a play and he has a rare combo of size, power and athleticism that allows him to extend the play when it would have otherwise been over for most anyone else.  That's when we hold our breath because something amazing/head scratching is likely to happen.  To his credit, I think the last of the latter type happened in weeks 3 and 4.  That is until the pitch attempt in Houston.  

[Stank_Nasty]

8 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I'm catching some weird looks, but seriously. Newton had a shot to dive on a fumble in the Super Bowl and decided not to. Don't think for a second that choice didn't cost him years worth of credibility and respect from his teammates.

I’m convinced if Allen were in that same situation the defender closest may come out missing a hand ?

[Steve Billieve]

Top 10 QB is completely undefined to me.  Seems like at any given time there are 20 QBs who have had top 10 seasons and could again, maybe only 5 who are consistently in that category.

I think Allen will have at least one top 10 year.

 

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So what if I think he cracks the top half but not the top 10?

Then you are too reasonable and there's not enough homer in you. Truth is, he has to play much, much smarter to crack the top 12. Shouldn't we see a couple of games where he dominates before we crown him, "elite" ? He now has adequate talent to start throwing to guys when they  are designed to get the ball. He has to throw it earlier and trust his receivers. If so, he can become very , very good. But I think it's too early think his jungle ball playing style will decrease and his QB IQ will rise. I would like nothing better to be wrong and he becomes a top 5 QB for then next 15 years, with a couple of Super Bowl MVP's. I would be amazed if that happens and hope it does. Go Bills !!!

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Josh is a weird cat. One minute he’s doing something amazing where I think he’s going to be the best QB in the league. The next he does something so head scratching that it makes me wonder if he has a crippling gambling problem and is trying to work the spread.

You can be both stupid and brilliant while being reckless. And as you said he usually does both in a game. That attempted lateral to Knox was probably the stupidest thing Josh has done so far besides all the countless fumbles from weak ball security. Yet he'll take a 4th and 2 play and be stopped in the backfield only to somehow dive miraculously 2 yards for the 1st.  The boy will drive you crazy.

[The Dean]

 

Quote

 

 9 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I'm catching some weird looks, but seriously. Newton had a shot to dive on a fumble in the Super Bowl and decided not to. Don't think for a second that choice didn't cost him years worth of credibility and respect from his teammates.

 

 

 

How many NFL starting QBs do you think would do that? Brady? Don't make me laugh. The truth is, the coaches don't want the QB to do that kind of stuff too often. 

 

So, no, I don't think Cam or any QB loses credibility for stuff like that. Not if they perform at their jobs. Now, ask me if I think Josh gets a boost of respect from his fellow coaches (and his coaches, albeit perhaps reluctantly)?  Then I'd say HELL YES!

 

It isn't necessary to disparage another to praise someone.

 

 

[Chicken Boo]

7 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

Way to be Bills Mafia that's what this young man needs every fan solidly behind him  

 

I'm rooting for him, but I'm far from sold.

[JetsFan20]

I think he can have a very good career like Daunte Culpepper/Cam Newton. He will be effective so long as he still maintains his athleticism. 
 

Comparing him to Elway? Let’s get real. Other than both having strong arms they are nothing alike. 

 

 

[JMF2006]

4 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

I think he can have a very good career like Daunte Culpepper/Cam Newton. He will be effective so long as he still maintains his athleticism. 
 

Comparing him to Elway? Let’s get real. Other than both having strong arms they are nothing alike. 

 

 

Elway was a scrambler who evolved into a pocket passer.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

On 5/15/2020 at 1:53 AM, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

A "parody of an NFL QB prospect" simply would not be capable of performing that well in those situations.  So most here would agree that he cleared that Barr too.  Two areas that are 100% on him to improve upon.  Ball security while on the move and under tackle and consistently giving his WRs a chance to make a play on the deep throws.  We should be able to see if he improves in those areas rather easily.  I think 400+ points would be a nice benchmark.

Nice

[Just Joshin']

I went with top 10 with a loose definition.  I am not sure he will ever be a stat machine but he will lead the team to wins by being clutch when needed.  He will be a team first guy, not stat first.  He will have the team in the play-off hunt yearly and teams will have to game plan around his skills.  Is that the definition of top 10?  I think so.

[Logic]

10 hours ago, JetsFan20 said:

I think he can have a very good career like Daunte Culpepper/Cam Newton. He will be effective so long as he still maintains his athleticism. 
 

Comparing him to Elway? Let’s get real. Other than both having strong arms they are nothing alike. 

 

 

 

Just of curiosity, so that we can gauge your level of bias and realism...

 

You’ve stated that you see Allen having a Culpepper/Newton like career. What type of career do you see Sam Darnold having? Who would you compare HIM to?

 

By the way, you might want to take a look at Elway’s career stats. Allen has actually completed a higher percentage of passes, thrown more TDs and less interceptions through his first two years than Elway did. Even in year 3 of Elway’s career, he threw more INTs than TDs. The point is that Hall of Fame QBs don’t just IMMEDIATELY start out their careers at a Hall of Fame level. Favre is another good illustration of this.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

Edited May 16, 2020 by Logic