Meatloaf63 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Looking back at the season, I’m honestly trying to determine did the line dramatically improve over last years version or was it just an incremental increase with all the changes we made? We rarely were able to impose our will, with many runs up the middle being stopped for little gaines or even plenty of TFL’s. Once we started playing better defenses, there were often jailbreak rushes as we saw yesterday, especially against New England and Baltimore. Digging deeper was it the quality of the line or the play calling along with the blocking schemes? For example I thought Singletary looked his best this year getting to the outside, but I don’t remember even one quick pitch to get him to the outside yesterday. The excuse of trying to limit the mistakes of a young Qb shouldn’t mean the running game should be so limited or unimaginative. Personally I’m not a big fan of Daboll. He often seems to get away from what’s working, plays on a whole seem to lack creativity. Yes we got the first drive yesterday but the well went dry after that. We rarely get Singletary involved in the passing game. And when it’s a sure blitz situation, we don’t seem to have the answers to handle it. Are the receivers not recognizing it and not running a hot route, is Allen not calling it out properly, are they running plays that take too long to develop? I know there are a lot of people here who are able to break this down better than me, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal2dagame Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yes it did, but still needs work. We once again have a good running game (when the coaches don't eliminate it from the gameplan) And our qb had sufficient time to throw in most plays. We had neither last year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 tiny increment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 People must have short memories of how crappy the line was in 2018... Still some ways to go though.. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yes it did. It still has room to grow though. Our best OL this year was the one who was already in the system - Dawkins - so something to be said for that. RT continues to be a significant need. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Very few long term injuries to the OL. Morse in the pre-season had concussion issues and Nsekhe missed time, but nothing major for the others. I don't see them re-signing Quinton Spain because he's JAG. Dawkins I think goes into his contract year without a new deal. Morse is here to stay by virtue of his contract and while he's an improvement, he's not top tier either. I like Feliciano at RG, but RT is a mess. Nsekhe is passable, but Ford is incapable of playing the position and requires help. Why they left him alone against a even a wounded Watt is unbelievable. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a backup next season. The OL is still very much a work in progress. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, loyal2dagame said: Yes it did, but still needs work. We once again have a good running game (when the coaches don't eliminate it from the gameplan) And our qb had sufficient time to throw in most plays. We had neither last year. Bills were 9th in rushing yards last year, 8th this year--mainly because of a serious upgrade at RB. But it is still a team that relies on its QB for a huge % of rushing yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Best Offensive line in New York 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I'm too stressed and depressed from yesterday to give long responses. No the oline was only slightly better and Daboll is an idiot. If for no other reason than not playing Devin more and Gore less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 It was a huge improvement over last season. Other than Dawkins, are any of last seasons linemen still even in the NFL? Ford needs to continue to improve, same with Dawkins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Compared to 2018, this line was three times as good. BUT, 3 X 0 =..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: People must have short memories of how crappy the line was in 2018... Still some ways to go though.. Did the improvements occur because we drafted a better running back and Allan is now year two? I still saw a line that couldn’t pass protect when the game is on the line... 1 minute ago, klos63 said: It was a huge improvement over last season. Other than Dawkins, are any of last seasons linemen still even in the NFL? Ford needs to continue to improve, same with Dawkins. Do you think Ford has the physical ability to stay at guard? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said: Did the improvements occur because we drafted a better running back and Allan is now year two? I still saw a line that couldn’t pass protect when the game is on the line... Do you think Ford has the physical ability to stay at guard? Do you mean 'stay at tackle'? I honestly don't know. I'll trust the coaching staff and Beane on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkollidas Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I think time will be the biggest benefit for this group. Even if Spain leaves, they have Long. If they keep Spain, they can cut Long, and draft a player. But with a group of 5 who had never played before, continuity and chemistry will go a long way in Year 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, klos63 said: Do you mean 'stay at tackle'? I honestly don't know. I'll trust the coaching staff and Beane on this one. Oops you’re right, stay at tackle or move him to guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, HOUSE said: Best Offensive line in New York I heard New Rochelle can maul ? I wanted to give a shout out to my alma mater (Lancaster), but New Rochelle was state champs, so kudos to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Yes it did. It still has room to grow though. Our best OL this year was the one who was already in the system - Dawkins - so something to be said for that. RT continues to be a significant need. I’ll say that Feliciano and Spain were better than Dawkins.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: I’ll say that Feliciano and Spain were better than Dawkins.. Nah. No way. Dawkins had a slow start but since the bye he has played really well. I was iffy on paying him before the season. It is a no brainer for me now. He is our best lineman. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Nah. No way. Dawkins had a slow start but since the bye he has played really well. I was iffy on paying him before the season. It is a no brainer for me now. He is our best lineman. Really ?? How much do you want to pay Dawkins? Im still not convinced he is the long term LT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, klos63 said: It was a huge improvement over last season. Other than Dawkins, are any of last seasons linemen still even in the NFL? Ford needs to continue to improve, same with Dawkins. Ford needs to move to Guard....that's all Ford needs to do. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, BillsVet said: Very few long term injuries to the OL. Morse in the pre-season had concussion issues and Nsekhe missed time, but nothing major for the others. I don't see them re-signing Quinton Spain because he's JAG. Dawkins I think goes into his contract year without a new deal. Morse is here to stay by virtue of his contract and while he's an improvement, he's not top tier either. I like Feliciano at RG, but RT is a mess. Nsekhe is passable, but Ford is incapable of playing the position and requires help. Why they left him alone against a even a wounded Watt is unbelievable. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a backup next season. The OL is still very much a work in progress. Agree on Spain. I think LG is where they really need to make a move to improve the run blocking. They generate very little push and they've got to add a mauler. Maybe the guards end up as Ford/Felciaino by virtue of acquiring a legit RT. Kill two birds with one stone. Edited January 5, 2020 by LSHMEAB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I do think the line last year was awful. I think there were better players this year and better results. I also agree we're not close to an elite unit though, so it needs further attention/competition amongst members. As for Dabol, I think he's actually over creative. I've argued that this team needs more of an identity, or something to hang their hats on. I don't know if the erratic play calling is an attempt to hide flaws, but I don't buy the idea that our identity is to have no identity. That works when you have personnel like KC who can beat you in a number of different ways, so you mix it up to make defensive scheming a nightmare. We don't have that type of talent, so we need to become very good at something to draw a defense's attention to allow other plays to open up. Frankly, I don't generally enjoy Josh's designed runs because they don't look like RPOs that give him options. He just takes the snap and runs which subjects him to hits without the protection he'd have if he pitched, or threw the ball occasionally. We also do the pitch sweep to McKenzie too often. It's not a bread and butter play. It works once a game then it gets shut down. The line could be assisted by Josh if he could become accurate on short timing routes, but his footwork is abysmal, so he just flicks the ball out without proper mechanics/accuracy. I pray this is a significant area off attention this off season. I think both Brown and Beasley have the skill set to make short passing work, but I don't think Josh can. That would back off the backers and safeties and make run blocking easier. JMHO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 It has improved. Just not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Yes it did. It still has room to grow though. Our best OL this year was the one who was already in the system - Dawkins - so something to be said for that. RT continues to be a significant need. RT is a major need. Ford does not appear to be the answer based on year 1 but OL isn’t always a short learning curve. We need to admit he isn’t a starting RT and move him to guard/swing tackle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said: Ford needs to move to Guard....that's all Ford needs to do. I don't know. Everyone said that about Dawkins too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: Really ?? How much do you want to pay Dawkins? Im still not convinced he is the long term LT... I'm thinking in the Donovan Smith $13.5m per year territory. Think he was 3 years I think you do Dawkins for 5 but make the 5th a dummy year. Within 2 seasons that will be cheap in the LT market. He is not a top 10 tackle. But he is a top 16 guy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yeah, and I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with working eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, familykwi said: I do think the line last year was awful. I think there were better players this year and better results. I also agree we're not close to an elite unit though, so it needs further attention/competition amongst members. As for Dabol, I think he's actually over creative. I've argued that this team needs more of an identity, or something to hang their hats on. I don't know if the erratic play calling is an attempt to hide flaws, but I don't buy the idea that our identity is to have no identity. That works when you have personnel like KC who can beat you in a number of different ways, so you mix it up to make defensive scheming a nightmare. We don't have that type of talent, so we need to become very good at something to draw a defense's attention to allow other plays to open up. Frankly, I don't generally enjoy Josh's designed runs because they don't look like RPOs that give him options. He just takes the snap and runs which subjects him to hits without the protection he'd have if he pitched, or threw the ball occasionally. We also do the pitch sweep to McKenzie too often. It's not a bread and butter play. It works once a game then it gets shut down. The line could be assisted by Josh if he could become accurate on short timing routes, but his footwork is abysmal, so he just flicks the ball out without proper mechanics/accuracy. I pray this is a significant area off attention this off season. I think both Brown and Beasley have the skill set to make short passing work, but I don't think Josh can. That would back off the backers and safeties and make run blocking easier. JMHO I agree with this on the whole, especially Josh’s footwork. What I don’t agree with is Beasley’s consistency. I have been looking at him when I rewatch games. He doesn’t win as many one in one matchups as you think. On a 5 yard route you need to win immediately and often. Yesterday he rarely was open and that has been true in many of the last few weeks. A quick pass can’t require you to make 3 basketball moves to get open. So how many times is Josh’s timing linked to too many jukes from Cole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, familykwi said: I do think the line last year was awful. I think there were better players this year and better results. I also agree we're not close to an elite unit though, so it needs further attention/competition amongst members. As for Dabol, I think he's actually over creative. I've argued that this team needs more of an identity, or something to hang their hats on. I don't know if the erratic play calling is an attempt to hide flaws, but I don't buy the idea that our identity is to have no identity. That works when you have personnel like KC who can beat you in a number of different ways, so you mix it up to make defensive scheming a nightmare. We don't have that type of talent, so we need to become very good at something to draw a defense's attention to allow other plays to open up. Frankly, I don't generally enjoy Josh's designed runs because they don't look like RPOs that give him options. He just takes the snap and runs which subjects him to hits without the protection he'd have if he pitched, or threw the ball occasionally. We also do the pitch sweep to McKenzie too often. It's not a bread and butter play. It works once a game then it gets shut down. The line could be assisted by Josh if he could become accurate on short timing routes, but his footwork is abysmal, so he just flicks the ball out without proper mechanics/accuracy. I pray this is a significant area off attention this off season. I think both Brown and Beasley have the skill set to make short passing work, but I don't think Josh can. That would back off the backers and safeties and make run blocking easier. JMHO I thought he made some excellent short throws last night, consistently better than earlier in the season, but no doubt that’s an area of concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 More so with run blocking than pass blocking. Pass blocking is absolutely atrocious and not much (if any) better than last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) It did for running but pass blocking against more than 4 was horrendous. Every time Watt came back into the game i was dreading it as he was abusing Ford all day. Edited January 5, 2020 by Buffalo Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I think the O-Line is the main reason that we lost that game. I think both OT’s need to be upgraded. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Buffalo Barbarian said: It did for running but pass blocking against more than 4 was horrendous. There were a few times last night I thought they got instant pressure bringing 3... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, BillsVet said: I don't see them re-signing Quinton Spain because he's JAG. Dawkins I think goes into his contract year without a new deal. Morse is here to stay by virtue of his contract and while he's an improvement, he's not top tier either. I like Feliciano at RG, but RT is a mess. Nsekhe is passable, but Ford is incapable of playing the position and requires help. Why they left him alone against a even a wounded Watt is unbelievable. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a backup next season. The OL is still very much a work in progress. If you're going to keep Dawkins, extend him now so the price does not go up next year. If no extension, we need to look into a replacement sooner than later. Nsekhe is unreliable with his regular injuries. I suspect Ford was left outside because they knew Nsekhe could not handle a heavier load. I don't know if Waddle is an option next year. I don't see Ford becoming a backup. If he can use his first full off season to improve his lateral footwork, then keep him outside. If he just cannot improve his slide step, then move him inside to compete with Feliciano (I don't think moving Ford to the left side solves a slow feet problem either). Although I love Feliciano, he would be a nice utility lineman inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yes it was better. Center play was league worst last year and this year it was solidly above average. Not top 5 like Morse was paid but significant upgrade. LG was significantly better. LT was the same. Dawkins is nowhere near an elite LT but he is good enough. RG play was up and down. Feliciano started well but faded terribly down the stretch. Pass blocking was awful against Pats and Texans. RT play was no better than last year. Mills was a bottom 10 player perhaps one of the worst in pass protection but adequate run blocker. Nsekhe/Ford were no better. It will be an interesting off-season. Dawkins has no leverage for a holdout but doesn't mean he won't. He is a starting LT and may want an extension prior to his last year of contract. Spain did not do enough to get a long term big deal from teams so he may be a good guy to sign on a 2-3 year deal. But I would let him walk, move Ford to LG, and sign a better pass blocking RT in free agency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, loyal2dagame said: Yes it did, but still needs work. We once again have a good running game (when the coaches don't eliminate it from the gameplan) And our qb had sufficient time to throw in most plays. We had neither last year. Loyal, correct. Is it just me or is Allen holding onto the ball too long. Part of that can be fixed with more weapons, but part is decisiveness, and throwing to the right guy. I love Josh, but he has to take another step forward this off season. I a,ready read his locker room interview about getting out to Palmer’s QB clinic. I just hope he takes 10-14 days off to decompress and self reflect on his development, then get it. None of us probably even take all of our three or four weeks vacation. I know it’s a good year when I take the full two weeks, as I’m in Medical Device sales and Mgmt, and it’s kind of like athletics in that too much time off and you get behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said: Ford needs to move to Guard....that's all Ford needs to do. I wonder if they will do this also so they don’t have to sign Spain. Gives us even more money to spend on others. I found it interesting hearing the Morse cleanout interview where he said how good Spain was for him. We ran better left but I am just not sold on Spain and wouldn’t give him more than 2 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMF2006 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 29 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: I’ll say that Feliciano and Spain were better than Dawkins.. Dawkins was best Feliciano was second best followed by Morse then Spain and Nishke in a tie with Ford being a rookie and learning on the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Allen holds the ball the longest in the NFL and he had a clean jersey until his brain melted int he 4th. Until the end of the game, the time they were giving him was insane. He had all day back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 The OL was much better than the dumpster fire last year. That said, I echo many of the thoughts that moving Ford to guard and finding a better ROT would be beneficial. If there's one thing I think McBeane can do as part of the 'process,' it's look at the team with clear-eyed pragmatism. They drafted Ford thinking he could play OT, but the evidence is overwhelming that he's too slow a foot to handle speed rushers. Admit that and move on, sliding him inside. Where he was drafted doesn't matter anymore. I'm not sold on Spain as well, so moving Ford inside would likely improve two positions with one move... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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