Browns interview Brian Daboll for HC; have interest in pairing with Bills Asst. GM Joe Schoen

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

yes, every year 12/32 teams make the playoffs. It really is not an amazing thing.

 

So then what the hell were we doing wrong during our 17 year drought?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Tesla03 said:

Can't believe there are Bills fans out there that think losing Daboll and his 28th ranked pass offense is going to be bad for Josh Allen lol 

 

it will be the best thing to happen to the kids career. 

 

Does McD seem like a head coach to you that is going to let his offensive coordinator open things up so his QB can throw for 300 yard games? Maybe that time will come down the road with one but right now I believe McD could could very well be the one you should be pointing your finger at if you are unhappy with the passing yards the offense is producing.

 

I say we keep both and let Allen continue to grow. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

Jason Garrett and Kellen Moore, Todd Haley

 

 

Can we amend that to "they can not do so until after the Bills complete their playoff run?"  The assumption seems to be we lose on Saturday, and Daboll would be free to interview. 
 

The only thing I have to say is, remember when Cleveland swiped Pettine from us to be their HC.  Pettine lasted 2 years as HC in Cleveland.  Meanwhile the Bills defense went from #20 to #4 (pts) under his successor.

 

NOT a fan of what I've seen of Kellen Moore as OC on the Cowboys this year.

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Let's not forget that this is the same man who though Nathan Peterman should start the 2018 season at QB. 

 

Are you sure that was Daboll and not McD?After all, McD thought Peterman was a better option than Tyrod the season before and Daboll wasn’t even around for that fiasco.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Don't know what to make of this. He's been instrumental in Josh's development from last year and as mediocre as the offense has been we made the playoffs with 2 weeks remaining in the regular season.

 

His best game calling to me was the Thanksgiving game. But most games his play calling has been head scratching to say the least. Whether that's on him or lack of execution is up for debate. I think he stays another year.

 

I vote for option C) Both of the above.  Strange mixture of excellent and head-scratching play design, strange mixture of head scratching and appropriate play calls.  There have definitely been times when execution has been lacking.

[Mr. WEO]

41 minutes ago, GG said:

 

In all fairness, the rant was mostly directed at WEO and his inane points.  You were caught in the flak because you appeared to agree with him.

 

which was the inane point?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

Nobody ever, ever disputed Allen’s arm talent.  What has always been in question is whether he could effectively use that talent to be a good QB.   The question still hasn’t been answered.

 

Allen had that arm talent when Fresno State told him to take a hike

 

Just a note that Allen has said he was 6'2" or 3" 180 lbs and his teammates called him "Tortuga" (tortoise) when Fresno State had no interest.

He was a late-bloomer, physically.  Had a growth spurt late in High School which messed up his ability to run, then another in JUCO/at Wyoming.

 

Pray proceed.

[Mr. WEO]

30 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Daboll gets way too much flake from fans. First off, did Allen really struggle as a passer in the second half of the season? His overall QB rating would say no. Only stats that tailed off were completion percentage and passing yards. 

 

But let’s pretend that in an alternate universe Allen struggled in the second half of the season. Don’t you think playing the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th ranked pass defenses may have had a hand in that? Allen basically sat out the Jets game so he only played one team in the second half of the season that did not have a top 11 pass defense.

 

In the first half of the season Allen only faced one defense in the top half of the league and that was New England. And Allen played significantly better against New England the second go around.

 

Let’s also not forget that Allen was the most raw QB drafted in the first round two years ago. He’s a work in progress and right now Daboll and Allen are a good fit. 

 

 

 

 

Josh's QB rating was in the 60's vs Baltimore and Pittsburgh and in the 70's against Cleveland, under 85 vs Philly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Really?  You missed the multiple calls where Josh overshot his WRs by 5+ yards?  That happened on more than one occasion, including 3rd and short.  It happened with Tyrod, too.  I have to believe that Daboll is telling Josh to let the receivers run to the ball rather than trying to be near perfect with the pass.  I'm with those who believe Daboll is holding Josh back.

 

Josh sucked this year throwing deep. I mean really sucked. But somehow it is Daboll’s fault Josh forgot how to throw the deep ball? I’d be more concerned if Daboll threw in the towel and never had Josh throw deep again. That would have been the definition of holding Josh back. Eventually Josh hit a couple in the second NE game. We lost but it was a significantly better game for Allen than the first match up.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, MiltonWaddams said:

Shurmur

 

It would mean a different offensive system, but I'm entirely in favor.

Shurmur has a history of coaxing their very best work out of a series of QB

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Josh's QB rating was in the 60's vs Baltimore and Pittsburgh and in the 70's against Cleveland, under 85 vs Philly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And 120 vs Dallas, 117 vs Miami, 102 vs NE and 92 vs Denver. 

 

And Philly was one of the first 8 games Josh played. Not one of the last 8.

 

You don’t have a point here unless you can tell me his overall QB rating was higher in the first 8 games played than it was in the last 8 games. I’ll save you the time in looking, it wasn’t. And that doesn’t even factor the greater degree of difficulty in the second half of the season playing better defenses and games that matter with playoffs on the line.

 

Your theory that Daboll held Allen back in the second half of the season doesn’t seem to hold any water. Unless holding back strictly refers to passing yards and completion percentage. And again against much better defenses. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Dan]

For 20 years, I've heard nothing but we need to get rid of this guy or that guy and we'll immediately be better.  Finally, we have some continuity.  The same HC, OC, DC and several key players in place.  And we're finally 10-6 and in the playoffs.   Yet, we want our young QB's OC gone??   I say no.. I want them to continue developing together and getting better; not starting over with someone new in a new system.  

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Daboll was at Bama for one season.  They were a stacked team at every position and doubly so at QB.  Prior to that he had some BS job at NE

So when he has the talent, he does a good job? How about we get more offensive talent like we all know we need? It's like you're talking out of both sides...

[JerseyBills]

Shows how much the league admires and respects what McDermott has done.

[GG]

34 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

which was the inane point?

 

I think the board’s search function would melt down if I tried to compile the examples.

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Keep him. Let McClappy interview there instead. 

You are entitled to your opinion......no matter how wrong it is

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

yes, every year 12/32 teams make the playoffs. It really is not an amazing thing.

Not ours....or have you not been paying attn

[BringBackOrton]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They scored 19ppg vs top defenses.  They were bailed out by their own D.

 

Yes, Josh has gotten better.  But his output is what it is--and it's not leaps and bounds better than last year's 11 starts.  

 

If you want to say Daboll helped get Josh man incremental bump from last year---ok, have that.  But Daboll has shown noting at all, ever, to give me any hops he will take the (for the Bills) generational talent at QB to the next level.  Daboll may be a nice guy, but he's a nobody as OC.  You want to make him the QB coach?  Ok...sure.

It absolutely is leaps and bounds. Josh improves in EVERY statistical category. TD%, INT% EVERYTHING. And on the field, he’s much better at staying in the pocket and going through his reads. He made plays over and over again this year that he was incapable of doing last year.

 

You can dislike Dab’s gameplans, but Josh Allen’s improvement under him is obvious.

Edited December 31, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[BringBackOrton]

4 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It was a joke but Daboll had no real power when he was at Bama or at NE. WEO was right about that. He was awful at every OC job although he had crap to work with. But he was horrible. That is a fact.

 

I have mixed feelings about Daboll myself. There is a good deal to like and a good deal to question. I also think McD holds him back to some degree.

Josh is a stud arm talent. It's off the charts. He is a stud athlete. It's off the charts. He is smart, has a fabulous work ethic, and is very coachable. Daboll had nothing to do with that. It's impossible to know whether a different guy would have helped Josh more or less, but Josh clearly likes him so I want him to stay at least another year before I would think about getting rid of him.

We know what his coaches at Wyoming were able to do, and it wasn’t super pretty or “studly.”

Edited December 31, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[GunnerBill]

A large number of the fans here would rejoice and then prepare to skewer the next sacrificial lamb who takes the Bills' OC job. 

 

Daboll would be a loss not necessarily because he is the greatest play caller (he isn't) but because this is the critical offseason in Josh's development. It is the worst possible time for a new scheme and him to have to build a new relationship. Oh and Dabes just isn't as bad a Coordinator as the mob would have you believe. 

Oh and also I haven't read all 8 pages but I hope @Kirby Jackson is here to dish out some humble pie to the Daboll blamers who were arguing until blue in the face 3 weeks ago that this guy couldn't possibly get HC looks. 

[JMF2006]

7 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Incorrect

 

 

 

I always thought it was hands off unless its the teams bye week or they were eliminated.

 

I think its a cheap low blow by the Browns to try and distract the Bills as they prepare for their biggest game in 20 years.

 

I wish he would just say go away I am busy call me in 5 weeks.

[Nihilarian]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Shows how much the league admires and respects what McDermott has done.

I agree with this. It's the defense that has carried this team this season and the offense has done just enough to win games. 10 of 16 games the Bills scored 20 points or less. 

 

Yes, Josh Allen has improved this season as he now has a QB coach with real NFL actual experience as a QB coach, not a WR assistant coach as the QB coach.  Josh stated on many occasions how much QB coach Ken Dorsey has helped him improve. For a lot of last season Josh didn't even have a veteran QB on the roster to help show him the ropes as all he had was Daboll.

 

 

Oh, and as for change. Look what happened to Jared Goff from 2016 to 2017 when Sean McVay took over as HC, Matt LaFleur took over as the Rams OC. That Rams offense went from dead last in the NFL at 32nd in 2016 to  #1 in points scored #10 in yards and Goff went from looking like a wasted #1 overall to a guy who looked like he should have been the #1 overall.

 

2016 stats for Goff 0-7 with a 54.6 completion percentage. In 2017,  to 11-4 and a 62.1 completion percentage. 

 

 

Coaches should be acknowledged for what they accomplish and not for who they worked for or who they know. Yea the Bills offense has improved from 2018, 31st in yards passing, 32nd in TDs. 2019 26th in yards passing, 24th in TDs. 

 

 

[Kmart128]

Please Browns take him... offensive play calling is what is holding this team back. People sre crediting Daboll for Josh's improvement. Im more of a believer that it was Ken Dorsey who helped the most. Plus the game at this level is slowing down for Allen. Daboll is just a conservative coach... he plays it safe and because of that he will be nothing more than solid.

 

[GunnerBill]

 

20 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Coaches should be acknowledged for what they accomplish and not for who they worked for or who they know. Yea the Bills offense has improved from 2018, 31st in yards passing, 32nd in TDs. 2019 26th in yards passing, 24th in TDs. 

 

To some teams in the league, the ones who did not like Josh Allen coming out, what Daboll has achieved with him is seen as an accomplishment. I don't know if the Browns were in that camp or not - there was certainly some buzz about Allen going #1 but who knows.

 

Equally, and I say this all the time, being a coordinator and a head coach are two different jobs. Mike McCarthy got the Green Bay job after coordinating the 32nd ranked offense in the league in San Francisco. He won a Superbowl there, whether people like him or not. What Cleveland needs is someone who can instil a winning culture and that is where working for Belichick and Saban and then being part of the turnaround with McDermott is going to be seen as valuable. Teams will be interviewing him and probing that I suspect much more than the Xs and Os. Has he picked up enough knowledge from those guys to lead a culture change in Cleveland. Because if he got there he would immediately walk in to a more talented offense. Hunt, Chubb, Landry, OBJ, Njoku..... every one of those would be a starter on the Bills immediately. Line and QB we might shade it but he will have the skill position guys. The question will be are you a guy who can lead. Because Kitchens was highly respected in the building for what he did with the Xs and Os play calling for Baker in the 2nd half of 2018. What was evident almost from the get go though was he could not lead.

9 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

Please Browns take him... offensive play calling is what is holding this team back. People sre crediting Daboll for Josh's improvement. Im more of a believer that it was Ken Dorsey who helped the most. Plus the game at this level is slowing down for Allen. Daboll is just a conservative coach... he plays it safe and because of that he will be nothing more than solid.

 

 

I don't get the conservative thing. In our two biggest televised games of the year we scored touchdowns on trick plays. Other posters have moaned all year that he "gets too cute in the redzone." I think there are legitimate criticisms of Daboll's play calling. But being too conservative or not creative enough.... I just don't know where that comes from.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Daboll said yesterday that there aren't enough hours in the day to prepare for playoff games. This necessarily takes away from preparation next week if the Bills advance.

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

And 120 vs Dallas, 117 vs Miami, 102 vs NE and 92 vs Denver. 

 

And Philly was one of the first 8 games Josh played. Not one of the last 8.

 

You don’t have a point here unless you can tell me his overall QB rating was higher in the first 8 games played than it was in the last 8 games. I’ll save you the time in looking, it wasn’t. And that doesn’t even factor the greater degree of difficulty in the second half of the season playing better defenses and games that matter with playoffs on the line.

 

Your theory that Daboll held Allen back in the second half of the season doesn’t seem to hold any water. Unless holding back strictly refers to passing yards and completion percentage. And again against much better defenses. 

 

 

Well, and scoring.

 

 

[Chaos]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Not ours....or have you not been paying attn

The point is that people get excited about things that are actually quite pedestrian.  They act as though not being one of the worst teams in history  is the same thing as "unprecedented success"

[SectionC3]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Does McD seem like a head coach to you that is going to let his offensive coordinator open things up so his QB can throw for 300 yard games? Maybe that time will come down the road with one but right now I believe McD could could very well be the one you should be pointing your finger at if you are unhappy with the passing yards the offense is producing.

 

I say we keep both and let Allen continue to grow. 

Bingo.  We play complimentary football and choke out teams at the end of games.  

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Dopey said:

So when he has the talent, he does a good job? How about we get more offensive talent like we all know we need? It's like you're talking out of both sides...

 

Yes, when he had the best talent in college football and the sports best HC, he thrived.  When  he left, they thrived.

 

My point is that, even though Josh has incrementally improved, there is nothing in Daboll's history in the NFL as a coordinator that will give me confidence that he is not a factor that will prevent JA from getting to where he needs to be for this Offense.

 

Pretty simple.

[Sweats]

Browns are always going after our sloppy seconds.......they went after Pettine and now Daboll.

[SectionC3]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

To some teams in the league, the ones who did not like Josh Allen coming out, what Daboll has achieved with him is seen as an accomplishment. I don't know if the Browns were in that camp or not - there was certainly some buzz about Allen going #1 but who knows.

 

Equally, and I say this all the time, being a coordinator and a head coach are two different jobs. Mike McCarthy got the Green Bay job after coordinating the 32nd ranked offense in the league in San Francisco. He won a Superbowl there, whether people like him or not. What Cleveland needs is someone who can instil a winning culture and that is where working for Belichick and Saban and then being part of the turnaround with McDermott is going to be seen as valuable. Teams will be interviewing him and probing that I suspect much more than the Xs and Os. Has he picked up enough knowledge from those guys to lead a culture change in Cleveland. Because if he got there he would immediately walk in to a more talented offense. Hunt, Chubb, Landry, OBJ, Njoku..... every one of those would be a starter on the Bills immediately. Line and QB we might shade it but he will have the skill position guys. The question will be are you a guy who can lead. Because Kitchens was highly respected in the building for what he did with the Xs and Os play calling for Baker in the 2nd half of 2018. What was evident almost from the get go though was he could not lead.

 

I don't get the conservative thing. In our two biggest televised games of the year we scored touchdowns on trick plays. Other posters have moaned all year that he "gets too cute in the redzone." I think there are legitimate criticisms of Daboll's play calling. But being too conservative or not creative enough.... I just don't know where that comes from.

I’m with you there.  John brown throwing the ball twice isn’t all that conservative to me.  Throwing the ball 18 times in a row (or whatever it was) to start the season against the Jets also is not conservative to me.  Maybe the NE game is a fair criticism - too many runs in first down - but the entirety of the season otherwise has been pretty modern and progressive. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

My point is that, even though Josh has incrementally improved, there is nothing in Daboll's history in the NFL as a coordinator that will give me confidence that he is not a factor that will prevent JA from getting to where he needs to be for this Offense.

 

To my knowledge the only rookie / young QB he worked with before was Colt McCoy. Not sure there is enough there to base any assessment on.

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Well, and scoring.

 

 

Complimentary football holds that back, too.  Winning is the ultimate barometer. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, SectionC3 said:

I’m with you there.  John brown throwing the ball twice isn’t all that conservative to me.  Throwing the ball 18 times in a row (or whatever it was) to start the season against the Jets also is not conservative to me.  Maybe the NE game is a fair criticism - too many runs in first down - but the entirety of the season otherwise has been pretty modern and progressive. 

 

Yea are there games where I thought we ran too much? Yep. Do I think all of that is on Daboll? No. Do I think I would characterise what we saw over 16 weeks as conservative? No.

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Think that's a combination of Daboll and McDermott.... think back to that Goal to go possession against the Steelers after the Tre White INT... they ran it 3 straight times..... 

two of those were a setup (gore throw) and the third was to preserve FG after the trick play failed. 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Really?  You missed the multiple calls where Josh overshot his WRs by 5+ yards?  That happened on more than one occasion, including 3rd and short.  It happened with Tyrod, too.  I have to believe that Daboll is telling Josh to let the receivers run to the ball rather than trying to be near perfect with the pass.  I'm with those who believe Daboll is holding Josh back.

 

Remember back in training camp (maybe it was mini camp) when Josh Allen said that it was hard to overthrow WRs like John Brown??? I think you're right about letting the WRs run to the ball. Last year, many of the deep pass connections by Allen seemed to be underthrown balls that the WRs adjusted to. It was quite noticeable for me, just like Tyrod often taking deep shots in 3rd and short, and I think it was something that the coaches noticed and wanted to correct. It's obviously better to overthrow a 1 on 1 ball than it is to underthrow. By week 3 or so, the Bills and Allen failed to connect on 3 or 4 deep passes where the DB was beat for a TD, and the ball was overthrown...easy to connect the dots as to why. Partially mental, partial coached (and at times, part footwork/pressure). And I'm not simply referring to passes over 30 yards, I mean go routes against cover 1 specifically. That issue persisted throughout the season for the most part, until the last few games anyways.

 

As far as that happenening on 3rd an short, under Daboll/Allen, I don't recall any specific instances offhand. I'm sure its happened, but you make it sound as if it happened so many times that it's egregious. That was the case with Tyrod (no exaggeration), not Allen. 

 

Anyhow, I don't want to nit pick one comment you made earlier in the thread. Your main point now is that Daboll is holding Allen back, which may or may not be the case. Personally, I think Allen is still playing a bit "raw" at times, missing easy throws that are there to be made. He puts too much zip on the ball at times, making it that much more difficult for WRs on shorter routes. There have been several inexcusable drops this year, but some of those weren't all on the WR/TE. He also has been a bit late on reads at times, although that cannon arm has bailed him out in some of those instances. 

 

Those are just a couple of noticable issues with Allen. BUT, he is still less than two full seasons into his career. The issues he has right now are about what we should have expected to see from him at this point in his career. He was about as raw of an uber-talented prospect coming out as we've seen recently, and it was never going to be a fast progression/transition for him. And with a good defense to lean on, it didn't need to be fast.

 

In his first year, we learned that Allen is athletic enough to make plays with his feet, and that he has a "gamer" mentality. We already knew about the cannon arm. After that, there were a lot of areas that need improvement. I think most Bills fans will say that Allen is "better" as a passer this year, but still has a lot of work to do. There have been several plays left on the field this year, and not just 5 yard overthrows on deep TD passes. 

 

Perhaps Daboll is holding Allen back, but if the plays are there to be made, yet not being made, that's on the QB. We all complained about how many plays Tyrod left on the field on a consistent basis. Allen has already had his fair share, yet the narrative is a bit different for some reason. Granted, TT was more of a league veteran at the time than Allen currently is, but why is the narrative different when the situation is the same? Why does the guy calling the plays get flack when the play call and design was good, yet the players didn't execute? 

 

The way I see it, this team is just scratching the surface. Allen will hopefully continue to improve in areas that have held him and the offense back at times, and the roster on offense should improve as well, making life easier for Allen, and Daboll. 

 

I would like to hear a more detailed explaination as to how Daboll is holding Allen back. IMO, the fact that the Bills have a strong defense to lean on, and a bit of a conservative HC has "held back" Josh, in the sense that he is rarely tasked with carrying the team on his shoulders and willing the team to victory in a high scoring game. For the most part, Allen has done what he has been asked to: don't feel like you need to be the hero, and do just enough. Essentially, the offense is being called a certain way, for a reason, and it generally revolves around just how good your defense is at holding opponents to lower scores and getting off the field. 

 

I wouldn't lose sleep if Daboll leaves, but I would like to see him stay for a 3rd year. With a presumably better roster and a more refined Allen at QB, we will truly see how good Daboll is. Then again, a new OC would have the same benefit, albeit with possibly a new scheme and playbook for the players to first get a grip on. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...he could reunite in Haslamville with Mangini just like 2009/2010.....he was Eric's OC.......switch roles......

[BuffaloHokie13]

12 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I do not think Daboll gets this job. That said, I think Dorsey would be a strong consideration as OC if he left. 

And then hire another ex-QB as QB coach

[MAJBobby]

2 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Daboll said yesterday that there aren't enough hours in the day to prepare for playoff games. This necessarily takes away from preparation next week if the Bills advance.

Bills fan and will dictate the date and time of the interview next week. So it could be AFTER the Friday Walkthrough. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Bills fan and will dictate the date and time of the interview next week. So it could be AFTER the Friday Walkthrough. 

 

Teams usually do not allow their coaches to interview while they are involved in the playoffs.

BAD move if the Bills actually allow this.

 

Is it actually said that they will allow him to interview during preparation after we beat the Texans?  Or is the "next week" stuff just inferred by writers who think we'll lose?