Watt punch on Allen run - He hung on to the ball!

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Because that requires incredible timing and coordination to hit the ball as the ball carrier gets even with you while you're engaged with a blocker or, like you see in the Watt video, running next to the ball carrier sacrificing yards instead of going for the tackle.  

 

If you swing at the ball carrier and get neither the ball or bring down the man then you may find your playing time reduced dramatically.

No. Because players will be going to the sidelines after you knocked the wind out of them like Mike Tyson. You’ll be a hero. 

[GoBills808]

Don’t see how you can just punch a guy but Antonio Brown can’t dropkick the punter in the face without a personal foul and a fine.

[Nitro]

1 hour ago, Stenbar said:

That play should be a penalty. You can't freaking punch someone with the  hopes of jarring the ball loose. If that is the case then  just start punching the hell out of everyone that has possession. Start drafting MMA fighters to force fumbles. LOL...What a freaking joke. SHould be a unsportsmanlike  and a automatic ejection and fine.  I know it is not a rule now but going forward they need to change that immediately

Agree with this

[Nelius]

That was a whiff, but he set his foot and wound up on that whiff, so I still give Josh credit for standing steady. May have hit the junk? Kind of crazy that a guy can just throw a UFC punch at your midsection but I guess he's going for the ball. Allen looks comfy and unphazed, and the Watts are scary dudes. Good ball security any way you slice it.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nelius

[Jauronimo]

17 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

No. Because players will be going to the sidelines after you knocked the wind out of them like Mike Tyson. You’ll be a hero. 

So why doesn't everybody just do it on every play? Its legal and there's no downside.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

So why doesn't everybody just do it on every play? Its legal and there's no downside.

That’s my question. I don’t think it can be legal. They just allowed it that play. It can’t be legal. 

[OZBILLS]

We should start punching opposition in the gut each run. Make them earn it

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

That’s my question. I don’t think it can be legal. They just allowed it that play. It can’t be legal. 

And I answered it twice, yet here we are.  It is perfectly legal.  Its taught at the college and pro level.  This isn't my opinion, its straight fact whether you choose to believe this time or not. Peanut Tillman made a career out of punching the ball out.  The flapping heads used to make a whole segment out of his offseason boxing training centered around forcing fumbles.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17114030/the-art-charles-tillman-peanut-punch-nfl-chicago-bears-carolina-panthers

 

The reason YOU haven't seen this before, I can't say.  The reason everyone doesn't do it all the time has already been explained twice.  I've seen Hughes and Poyer go for the punch. It doesn't always work because its hard to do and NFL players get paid to hang onto the ball.  

 

The world typically doesn't stop for a failed punch unless you're one of the Steroid Twins.

 

[Nelius]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That’s my question. I don’t think it can be legal. They just allowed it that play. It can’t be legal. 

 

I'm right there with you but am starting to question it? Can you theoretically punch a guy down? It looks like Watt is staring directly at the ball so maybe that's what saves him? Weird play.

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Nelius said:

 

I'm right there with you but am starting to question it? Can you theoretically punch a guy down? It looks like Watt is staring directly at the ball so maybe that's what saves him? Weird play.

Thats a great question and I'm glad someone finally asked it. 

 

Can Pegula really own BOTH the Bills AND the Sabres at the same time???  I don't think its been answered yet.

[Nelius]

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Thats a great question and I'm glad someone finally asked it. 

 

Can Pegula really own BOTH the Bills AND the Sabres at the same time???  I don't think its been answered yet.

 

Alright, alright, I'll follow your links. Calm down.

[1ManRaid]

They really need to outlaw the closed fist haymaker method of stripping a ball.  You are literally just throwing a punch at another player which is an automatic suspension in basically any other context (on top of injuring their hand/wrist/whatever).

 

You can't intentionally bash the throwing arm of a QB, shouldn't be able to Falcon Punch a ball carrier.

Edited December 18, 2019 by 1ManRaid

[BillsIsrael]

1 hour ago, Stenbar said:

That play should be a penalty. You can't freaking punch someone with the  hopes of jarring the ball loose. If that is the case then  just start punching the hell out of everyone that has possession. Start drafting MMA fighters to force fumbles. LOL...What a freaking joke. SHould be a unsportsmanlike  and a automatic ejection and fine.  I know it is not a rule now but going forward they need to change that immediately

I totally agree, players should not be allowed to punch, next time he'll punch, miss the ball on purpose and hit the chin, groin or an unprotected part of the body. This should be not allowed just like face-masking, horse-collar tackles and other defensive hits which are illegal.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

And I answered it twice, yet here we are.  It is perfectly legal.  Its taught at the college and pro level.  This isn't my opinion, its straight fact whether you choose to believe this time or not. Peanut Tillman made a career out of punching the ball out.  The flapping heads used to make a whole segment out of his offseason boxing training centered around forcing fumbles.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17114030/the-art-charles-tillman-peanut-punch-nfl-chicago-bears-carolina-panthers

 

The reason YOU haven't seen this before, I can't say.  The reason everyone doesn't do it all the time has already been explained twice.  I've seen Hughes and Poyer go for the punch. It doesn't always work because its hard to do and NFL players get paid to hang onto the ball.  

 

The world typically doesn't stop for a failed punch unless you're one of the Steroid Twins.

 

Throwing closed fist haymakers should be illegal in most cases.  If jerry Hughes cocked back and haymakered tom Brady’s arm while he had the ball in his hand, I believe he’d be flagged for it

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

And I answered it twice, yet here we are.  It is perfectly legal.  Its taught at the college and pro level.  This isn't my opinion, its straight fact whether you choose to believe this time or not. Peanut Tillman made a career out of punching the ball out.  The flapping heads used to make a whole segment out of his offseason boxing training centered around forcing fumbles.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17114030/the-art-charles-tillman-peanut-punch-nfl-chicago-bears-carolina-panthers

 

The reason YOU haven't seen this before, I can't say.  The reason everyone doesn't do it all the time has already been explained twice.  I've seen Hughes and Poyer go for the punch. It doesn't always work because its hard to do and NFL players get paid to hang onto the ball.  

 

The world typically doesn't stop for a failed punch unless you're one of the Steroid Twins.

 

 That’s not what I am arguing. I understood what you are saying and players have tried to punch balls out forever. That’s not the point. The point is if you miss and just punch a player in the chest or gut or balls it should be a penalty. Like if you try to swat a ball away from a QB but miss and hit him in the helmet it is a penalty. I’ve been watching football for over 50 years. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player swing as hard as Watt did with a punch, miss the ball and hit the player. That can’t be legal or guys would do it all the time. 

[Thurman#1]

Yeah, but on the game coverage they had another angle and you could see that Watt almost completely missed the ball. Would Allen have held on if he'd hit it on target? We'll never know.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

 That’s not what I am arguing. I understood what you are saying and players have tried to punch balls out forever. That’s not the point. The point is if you miss and just punch a player in the chest or gut or balls it should be a penalty. Like if you try to swat a ball away from a QB but miss and hit him in the helmet it is a penalty. I’ve been watching football for over 50 years. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player swing as hard as Watt did with a punch, miss the ball and hit the player. That can’t be legal or guys would do it all the time. 

 

 

I think it's totally legal, but it's not very effective at knocking guys down, and that's why they don't do it unless they're trying to knock the ball out.

 

Punching does a great job in making the area of contact small but a terrible job of delivering more total force. You deliver more total force by leading with a shoulder or a form tackle with your facemask.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yeah, but on the game coverage they had another angle and you could see that Watt almost completely missed the ball. Would Allen have held on if he'd hit it on target? We'll never know.

I think he definitely missed the ball. I can’t imagine punching someone in the gut if you miss is legal. 

[MJS]

I want to see our players doing stuff like that more often. If he had connected more with the ball there's no way Allen would have maintained control.

 

Lots of people crying about it being dirty or dangerous. Not my take at all. I find it smart and effective.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

So why doesn't everybody just do it on every play? Its legal and there's no downside.

 

 

The downside is that if you're punched in the chest when you're running you'll basically run right through the contact and keep going. You deliver less force by running the force vector up through a bunch of joints that aren't locked than you would by using a conventional tackle.

 

Boxers in a typical fight will get punched a couple hundred times and more of them than not make it to the end anyway. Try getting tackled at high speed a couple hundred times in the length of time a prize fight takes.

 

The reason tackles are taught the way they are is that it's the best and most violent way that's safest for the tackler.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Thurman#1

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The downside is that if you're punched in the chest when you're running you'll basically run right through the contact and keep going. You deliver less force by running the force vector up through a bunch of joints that aren't locked than you would by using a conventional tackle.

 

Boxers in a typical fight will get punched a couple hundred times and more of than not make it to the end anyway. Try getting tackled at high speed a couple hundred times in the length of time a prize fight takes.

These people really think a punch is more dangerous than a full speed hit from a defenders shoulder? We're talking magnitudes of more force than a punch here, folks. A hard, legal tackle is so much more dangerous and forceful than a punch.

[Kelly the Dog]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yeah, but on the game coverage they had another angle and you could see that Watt almost completely missed the ball. Would Allen have held on if he'd hit it on target? We'll never know.

 

 

 

 

I think it's totally legal, but it's not very effective at knocking guys down, and that's why they don't do it unless they're trying to knock the ball out.

 

Punching does a great job in making the area of contact small but a terrible job of delivering more total force. You deliver more total force by leading with a shoulder or a form tackle with your facemask.

So you think that if Ed Oliver ran at the QB and instead of trying to tackle him he just punched him as hard as he could in the chest close to the ball that is legal?

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

So you think that if Ed Oliver ran at the QB and instead of trying to tackle him he just punched him as hard as he could in the chest close to the ball that is legal?

Why would it not be? If you are attacking the ball it's smart and legal. BTW, Watt didn't punch anybody in the chest. He was CLEARLY going for the ball. He came with a downward motion to punch the ball out. It's as legal as legal gets and will never be against the rules, nor should it.

 

And you realize that players wear hard pads over their chest, right? A punch to the chest would hurt his fist more than it would hurt the QB.

Edited December 18, 2019 by MJS

[Thurman#1]

25 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

So you think that if Ed Oliver ran at the QB and instead of trying to tackle him he just punched him as hard as he could in the chest close to the ball that is legal?

 

 

Yeah, I would guess that it's both legal and very ineffective, and that the reason Oliver wouldn't do that is that the QB would then scramble away, that Oliver would be reducing the amount of force he was delivering by making that play.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Prickly Pete]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yeah, but on the game coverage they had another angle and you could see that Watt almost completely missed the ball. Would Allen have held on if he'd hit it on target? We'll never know.

 

 

 

 

I think it's totally legal, but it's not very effective at knocking guys down, and that's why they don't do it unless they're trying to knock the ball out.

 

Punching does a great job in making the area of contact small but a terrible job of delivering more total force. You deliver more total force by leading with a shoulder or a form tackle with your facemask.

 

Okay, what about when another player has a guy under control, while some other guy balls up his fist and slugs the runner? 

What if you are way ahead, and don' really care about giving up a few more yards?

 

I think it should be a judgement call at the very least. Making a fist and swinging at a guys vulnerable areas should be a penalty. I can't recall seeing it happen that often, especially from one player. Watt did this a few times during the game. I was hoping someone might  bash that a****** during the closing minutes, but the game was still a contest. 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by 32ABBA

[Utah John]

It sure looked to me that Watt missed the ball, either completely or nearly so, but Allen went down exactly like you'd expect a man to do when punched in the balls.  

[Thurman#1]

13 minutes ago, 32ABBA said:

 

Okay, what about when another player has a guy under control, while some other guy balls up his fist and slugs the runner? 

What if you are way ahead, and don' really care about giving up a few more yards?

 

I think it should be a judgement call at the very least. Making a fist and swinging at a guys vulnerable areas should be a penalty. I can't recall seeing it happen that often, especially from one player. Watt did this a few times during the game. I was hoping someone might  bash that a****** during the closing minutes, but the game was still a contest. 

 

 

 

 

Same deal. I'm no rules expert, but I don't think it's either penalizable or effective to punch, except punching the ball out.

 

When another player has a guy under control and another guy comes up to make a hit, if he wants to get as much force as possible he should use the legal part of the helmet or his shoulder. If he wants to lessen the impact of his hit, make it easier on the guy with the ball, he should punch him.

 

The reason they don't do it is because it simply doesn't make sense in any way. The only time it makes sense punching a guy wearing a helmet is if you're trying to punch the ball out.

[CorkScrewHill]

This is an amazing article about the football fumble scrum pile with a lot from Fred Smerlas and Conrad Dobler. It makes what is being talked about here seem kind of tame in comparison. It is a long but excellent article

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/12/12/21005035/fumble-pile-violence-nfl-stories

 

Here is a sample “Retired NFL defensive lineman Fred Smerlas recalls them as the most exhilarating yet frightening moments in pro football, a purgatory of cheap shots and atrocities where you did your time unwillingly, a place where dragons lurked.”

Edited December 18, 2019 by CorkScrewHill

[Big Turk]

Watt missed most of the ball and only got a glancing blow.

[hemma]

Trying to imagine the reaction from his teammates, fans, media & NFL if Our Josh had been put out of the game by a haymaker to the nutsack.

 

When I was ~ 8 years old, I slid down the front of our 1947 Pontiac after a snowstorm, not even thinking about the hood ornament.

Sixty years later, I still think about that hood ornament.

[PetermansRedemption]

6 hours ago, Stenbar said:

That play should be a penalty. You can't freaking punch someone with the  hopes of jarring the ball loose. If that is the case then  just start punching the hell out of everyone that has possession. Start drafting MMA fighters to force fumbles. LOL...What a freaking joke. SHould be a unsportsmanlike  and a automatic ejection and fine.  I know it is not a rule now but going forward they need to change that immediately

My first thought as well. If you get the ball, fine. Otherwise, personal foul with an ejection. Throwing a punch is an automatic ejection, why shouldn’t it be in this case?

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

This may have been tucked into one of the post game threads - apologies if I missed it.

YPP put up a clip of the run play where Allen DIDN'T fumble when Watt punched at the ball.

 

I thought it was worth a look.  I think Allen has been working hard at ball security, and while it's still a work in progress, I'm impressed that he hung on to the ball here.   "High and tight, Bills Claw!"

 

 

Is it just me, or did Watt get him in the parts too?

Upper thigh, looks like

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Although it does bring new meaning to the phrase punch the ball

[Chaos]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, we did a good job protecting Allen this game.

 

Which kind of begs the question why we didn't game plan for better protection against the Ravens.

Even better question, why didn't we adjust at all during the Raven's game, regardless of the original game plan. ?

[nkreed]

7 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Watch the replay. He hits Allen in the chest and then extends down into his groin. He never makes contact with the ball. Allen either by luck or instinct is pulling the ball up and closer to his chest as the punch glances off his chest and heads to his nuts.

Very clearly Allen sees the wind up. I would think it's natural instinct, not luck or training. It looks more like a flinch when the punch is on its way, which leads to the ball moving up and in towards his body more and Watt missing. The punch normally only works when the player can't react instinctively (flinch) and move the ball.

Edited December 18, 2019 by nkreed
Can't spell

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

This may have been tucked into one of the post game threads - apologies if I missed it.

YPP put up a clip of the run play where Allen DIDN'T fumble when Watt punched at the ball.

 

I thought it was worth a look.  I think Allen has been working hard at ball security, and while it's still a work in progress, I'm impressed that he hung on to the ball here.   "High and tight, Bills Claw!"

 

 

Is it just me, or did Watt get him in the parts too?

 

To be totally honest.  As I saw it on different angles 

Watt completely missed the ball and punched Josh in the chest 

 

7 hours ago, RiotAct said:

was this the one fairly late in the game?  I thought for sure he whiffed completely but I guess not

 

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Yea, that one seems like Allen got lucky watt missed, not some special technique on his part

 

7 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I’m glad he whiffed. That just might have ended badly. 

 

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I had that thought myself

 

OK  we're in consensus

10 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Although it does bring new meaning to the phrase punch the balls

 

Fixed that for you 

[Doc]

If Watt had connected the ball, no one would have been able to avoid fumbling.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I would have loved to see Ford or Dawkins just closed fist, wind up punch Watt right in the stomach the next time he came around the edge after that. I don’t think it’s holding. I know what Watt did was smart but that’s a little egregious.  Just punch Watt as hard as humanly possible in a place with no padding when he’s rushing the passer. 

[CLTbills]

I mean he held onto it.... but Watt didn't actually punch the ball, so......

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

31 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I would have loved to see Ford or Dawkins just closed fist, wind up punch Watt right in the stomach the next time he came around the edge after that. I don’t think it’s holding. I know what Watt did was smart but that’s a little egregious.  Just punch Watt as hard as humanly possible in a place with no padding when he’s rushing the passer. 

 

Had the Bills punched Watt they'd get a PF and possible ejection. 

 

 

[Cripple Creek]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

This may have been tucked into one of the post game threads - apologies if I missed it.

YPP put up a clip of the run play where Allen DIDN'T fumble when Watt punched at the ball.

 

I thought it was worth a look.  I think Allen has been working hard at ball security, and while it's still a work in progress, I'm impressed that he hung on to the ball here.   "High and tight, Bills Claw!"

 

 

Is it just me, or did Watt get him in the parts too?

There is no way Allen hold onto the ball if Watt connects.  Allen was very lucky that the punch went betwixt the ball and his torso.  Yes, he came dangerously close to the baby makers. (if he had connected with the footBALL zero blame could be placed on Allen, great football play.)

Edited December 18, 2019 by Cripple Creek