JGMcD2 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Hey look, I’m not arguing that the Jerry Hughes touchdown that was called a fumble on the field and was overturned wasn’t a forward pass. It was clearly a shuttle pass or whatever you’d like to call it. I was in the stands at the game and after celebrating like a mad man knew immediately it would be overturned. We could have stopped them on that drive and won the game regardless... so by no means am I blaming the refs for our loss... they made the right call. Anyway... I came across this today and it made me go ballistic. I’m not absolving the team of the fact they shouldn’t have put themselves in the position they were in. Offense, defense, special teams and coaches contributed to the loss. All I ask for is consistency... from our coaches, our players, our fans, the league office and the refs. There is no standard in the NFL for the refs... no accountability. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Reich Thing Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Hey look, I’m not arguing that the Jerry Hughes touchdown that was called a fumble on the field and was overturned wasn’t a forward pass. It was clearly a shuttle pass or whatever you’d like to call it. I was in the stands at the game and after celebrating like a mad man knew immediately it would be overturned. We could have stopped them on that drive and won the game regardless... so by no means am I blaming the refs for our loss... they made the right call. Anyway... I came across this today and it made me go ballistic. I’m not absolving the team of the fact they shouldn’t have put themselves in the position they were in. Offense, defense, special teams and coaches contributed to the loss. All I ask for is consistency... from our coaches, our players, our fans, the league office and the refs. There is no standard in the NFL for the refs... no accountability. you're not wrong 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) I remembered that happening but I did not think it was that early in the 2018 season. I thought maybe it was the Lions game. Edited November 11, 2019 by JESSEFEFFER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichRiderBills Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Heres the kicker; that would have been a rushing play if completed. Counted as rush yards....why then is that a pass? Horsehockey ...there was no motion forward in the manner of a conventional pass. Should be a fumble! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Man. That's tough to take. Thanks for pissing me off even more, OP... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 While I understand and agree with the intent of the rule...that particular play was NOT executed as a forward pass. Much like the Music City Miracle, you have to execute it correctly for the rule to apply. Mayfield simply tossed the ball up in the air. That’s not a forward pass! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: While I understand and agree with the intent of the rule...that particular play was NOT executed as a forward pass. Much like the Music City Miracle, you have to execute it correctly for the rule to apply. Mayfield simply tossed the ball up in the air. That’s not a forward pass! The refs over turned it because Baker's arm was going forward. It's debatable but if his guy gets the ball it be called a completed pass but yeah the Minny game calling it a fumble when it wasn't hurts but it might have been used as evidence to change the call/rule. The Bills D could have still stopped the Browns that drive to win but didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 The BALL must be moving forward to be considered a forward pass. That’s the standard. It’s that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, The Jokeman said: The refs over turned it because Baker's arm was going forward. It's debatable but if his guy gets the ball it be called a completed pass but yeah the Minny game calling it a fumble when it wasn't hurts but it might have been used as evidence to change the call/rule. The Bills D could have still stopped the Browns that drive to win but didn't. All of what you say is true. One of the interesting parts about the NFL is that there are so many rules that coaches are always trying to work their way around them. I believe this is one of those instances. The rule needs to change. There needs to be some risk to the offense. (I feel the same about how Brady is being allowed to abuse the intentional grounding rule. You can't tell me he isn't INTENTIONALLY 'grounding' the ball to INTENTIONALLY avoid a sack....because he is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, SoCal Deek said: All of what you say is true. One of the interesting parts about the NFL is that there are so many rules that coaches are always trying to work their way around them. I believe this is one of those instances. The rule needs to change. There needs to be some risk to the offense. (I feel the same about how Brady is being allowed to abuse the intentional grounding rule. You can't tell me he isn't INTENTIONALLY 'grounding' the ball to INTENTIONALLY avoid a sack....because he is.) I fully heartily agree as still shake my head on non grounding call on Brady against us this season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: The BALL must be moving forward to be considered a forward pass. That’s the standard. It’s that simple. sucks but that's all she wrote on to Miami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, row_33 said: sucks but that's all she wrote on to Miami I was over it the minute it was overturned. What the rule is for a forward pass is a completely different discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: I was over it the minute it was overturned. What the rule is for a forward pass is a completely different discussion. i was pressed for time at the office and listening on the radio and thought the Hughes TD clinched it and turned off the broadcast found out THE TRUTH a little bit later... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, row_33 said: i was pressed for time at the office and listening on the radio and thought the Hughes TD clinched it and turned off the broadcast found out THE TRUTH a little bit later... Must have been a shock to the system. Then again, you were spared the gory visuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, K-9 said: Must have been a shock to the system. Then again, you were spared the gory visuals. it's been 18 straight days billing at least 9 a day on a file that is very tough to suck it up and dive in.... and the jadedness of cheering since 1973 has led me to believe what Yogi said was true about it being over but i was still disheartened and then watched the youtube hi-lites (thanks for getting them up there that quick, whomever!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st&ten Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 If the Refs would have let the TD stand I don't think Browns fans would have let them get out of there alive !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Doug Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Here’s the definition. If an opposing QB does it, it’s a forward pass. For Allen, it’s a fumble. Going forward, are we now to expect that he will at least have one fumble per game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, 1st&ten said: If the Refs would have let the TD stand I don't think Browns fans would have let them get out of there alive !!! Bills still would have found a way to lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 28 minutes ago, row_33 said: it's been 18 straight days billing at least 9 a day on a file that is very tough to suck it up and dive in.... and the jadedness of cheering since 1973 has led me to believe what Yogi said was true about it being over but i was still disheartened and then watched the youtube hi-lites (thanks for getting them up there that quick, whomever!!) Hang in there. This, too, shall pass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Haha— I forgot about that play. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Heres the kicker; that would have been a rushing play if completed. Counted as rush yards....why then is that a pass? Horsehockey ...there was no motion forward in the manner of a conventional pass. Should be a fumble! No, it would be a passing play. The rule was correctly inforced yesterday. It’s a dumb rule, but it was called correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 would be nice if one of these went the Bills' way but that would require some coaching and innovation... sigh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichRiderBills Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, whatdrought said: No, it would be a passing play. The rule was correctly inforced yesterday. It’s a dumb rule, but it was called correctly. Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNICE Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I got passed this quickly, however did not like the reasoning “quaterback’s arm was moving forward....” the definition of a forward pass has nothing to do with an arm, it’s about the BALL. I would’ve liked more emphasis and camera views of whether or not the BALL was moving forward. maybe I’m reaching but it seemed the ball was going straight down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss. No my good man. They go into the stat books as passing yards. It was the correct call. Sucks for us, but the refs called it correctly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Official decision tree from NFL referee casebook manual: if team = 'Bills' then play = 'Fumble' else play = 'Incomplete Forward Pass' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I found the video very depressing in the fact Allen couldn't accurately pass the ball to a player literally 6 inches in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 11 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss. No they don’t. They are always passes if it tosses it like that. The runs are the quick handoffs. This play is a forward pass and that is the exact reason they do it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 If this with Allen and McKenzie against NE, you know the call of a fumble on the field would have stood. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 15 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Heres the kicker; that would have been a rushing play if completed. Counted as rush yards....why then is that a pass? Horsehockey ...there was no motion forward in the manner of a conventional pass. Should be a fumble! The refs - and league - blew the call in the Vikings game. There is no reason for that. But I noticed that the shovel pass in the Washington game where Singletary went for 49 yards was counted as a completed pass and went toward passing yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, billsbackto81 said: I found the video very depressing in the fact Allen couldn't accurately pass the ball to a player literally 6 inches in front of him. Kind of like the Browns, eh? Everything here depends on timing. I wonder if that play was the first time Allen had run it in a game. The WR was on him too quickly, but carry on with accuracy issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 12 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Nope. Ok so the same plays we run with Mckenzie are all listed as rushing plays and count as rushing stats? I've never seen them listed as a pass. They always show as rushes. Always dude, we run it! Shovel pass? Yes...not these toss up plays. It was an especially weak motion as well, and there was a marginal to non existent throwing motion on the toss. Go back and look at the stats in those games, they are credited as passes. I know because I looked closely as one of those affected my fantasy results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Kind of like the Browns, eh? Everything here depends on timing. I wonder if that play was the first time Allen had run it in a game. The WR was on him too quickly, but carry on with accuracy issues. EZ bud, meant to be a funny. I like Josh a lot and hope more than anyone he succeeds. But let's not turn a blind eye to the obvious, at this juncture in his career he's not exactly pinpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Thanks for posting this. I was pulling my hair out arguing about this on another thread. It's extremely frustrating that the refs don't understand the rules as well as people watching at home. It's really simple, either the ball is moving forward or it is not. Allen's example vs the Vikings should have been ruled an incomplete pass. Baker's ball didn't go forward (at least not convincingly from replay) and should have stayed a fumble. Ironically, it was probably during off-season review that the Refs were shown the incorrect outcome of Allen's example that this past weekends crew assumed was identical. Bottom line, most of the refs are just not smart enough for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jobot said: Thanks for posting this. I was pulling my hair out arguing about this on another thread. It's extremely frustrating that the refs don't understand the rules as well as people watching at home. It's really simple, either the ball is moving forward or it is not. Allen's example vs the Vikings should have been ruled an incomplete pass. Baker's ball didn't go forward (at least not convincingly from replay) and should have stayed a fumble. Ironically, it was probably during off-season review that the Refs were shown the incorrect outcome of Allen's example that this past weekends crew assumed was identical. Bottom line, most of the refs are just not smart enough for this game. The problem is that there is no accountability for errors or explanation of the change. I truly accept it is an incomplete pass if it went forward an inch but then how did they mess up last year on review? The inconsistent nature is why I do not watch other games because I believe 2or 3 games a weekend are decided by poor officiating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 36 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: The problem is that there is no accountability for errors or explanation of the change. I truly accept it is an incomplete pass if it went forward an inch but then how did they mess up last year on review? The inconsistent nature is why I do not watch other games because I believe 2or 3 games a weekend are decided by poor officiating. I have no clue why ALL replays don't go back to 'New York'. It's so apparent that refs can't handle the added workload in addition to the field work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Reich Thing Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I've re-watched this play 50+ times... The bigger thing that concerns me is that he was attempting to underhand it to Hunt. If it's underhand shouldn't it be a fumble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I was talking with someone at work today. Did anyone as a kid playing two hand touch ever use the rule "He cut the string"? If a guy ran between the QB and the center and the ball for any reason hit the ground, it's a live ball. That would take all the debate out of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 5 hours ago, njbuff said: If this with Allen and McKenzie against NE, you know the call of a fumble on the field would have stood. Bills aren't advanced enough on O to design a play like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guffalo Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) My question is, if Mayfield or the reciever picked it up and ran a few yards, would they still have treated it as a forward pass? If it got kicked back a bit and they lost 12 yards, would they call it an incomplete pass? Probably not because Baker Mayfield is the new posterchild for the NFL , the refs need to keep him engaged in the game, thus the call went that way. Edited November 12, 2019 by Guffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts