Edge Pressure

[LSHMEAB]

I'm getting the sense this team can compete. While I've known we weren't stacked at DE, the concern is more pronounced when you have a team on the precipise of actually doing something!

 

Murphy got a sack and generates some pressure. He's PROBABLY not gonna stay healthy. Shaq does VERY little in terms of getting after the QB. 

 

Hughes is a very, very good pass rusher, but he's not elite. I watched a particular play last night and it dawned on me that the reason for the disparity in sacks/pressures WRT Hughes is that the other side of the pocket is far too frequently clean. 

 

I can see this being a major issue defensively, especially if the offense clicks and we starting getting into games that actually resemble modern NFL football. What's the solution? Is Oliver gonna be good enough as a rookie to make THAT much of an impact on the left side of the line? Star is Star. Do you blitz more? Frazier is allergic to that concept. I tend to think the issue went unnoticed last season because we were awful offensively and didn't really FORCE the opposing QB's to go into down field mode. In these modern games, you've got to be able to make a big play or two defensively and that rarely occurs without pressure. We flirted with Clark and Clowney. That didn't come to fruition. I think the likely outcome is that McDermott has a little sitdown with Frazier to explain that you're allowed to send 5 or 6 guys after the QB. If that doesn't work, the HC may have to take over the reigns defensively once again. I could also see them getting into another 2017 "we're better than we thought" situation and trying to make a midseason acquisition. We shall see.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it's great that the Bills appear to be moving in the right direction. Still, this is a concern.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[MAJBobby]

Game planning once that starts happening you will see a lot more pressure. Now it is just individual battles 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Managed to be the #2 defense last year with the same pash rush. 

[Aussie Joe]

There is no superstar on the DL, but It’s too early to tell how they will perform watching preseason..

 

They seem to have a deep rotation, so need to wait for the real games and see if they can wear teams down over the course of the game..

 

 

[Mark Vader]

Relax

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Managed to be the #2 defense last year with the same pash rush. 

It's gonna be a bit different if the good teams we face aren't playing prevent offense by the second half.

[ocemur]

I didn't see much from the Panthers DE's either. Keep in mind this game was played after practicing against the same players. In other words, the OL had been playing against these same guys and seeing their moves all week. In addition, pass rushing can be about setting up moves. That doesn't always happen in a quarter. Plus, there was no fatigue factor for the O-linemen. I'm not worried yet.

[DCbillsfan]

Need the DTs to get a good push up the middle.  This will help the DEs.  No pocket for QB to step up and force QB to sidestep.  Looking forward to seeing Oliver play a full game.  Does his quickness and strength wear opponents down as game progresses?

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, ocemur said:

I didn't see much from the Panthers DE's either. Keep in mind this game was played after practicing against the same players. In other words, the OL had been playing against these same guys and seeing their moves all week. In addition, pass rushing can be about setting up moves. That doesn't always happen in a quarter. Plus, there was no fatigue factor for the O-linemen. I'm not worried yet.

Not concerned about how the defense looked against Carolina in a preseason game. I'm looking at the complete construction of the team.

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

It's gonna be a bit different if the good teams we face aren't playing prevent offense by the second half.

Your right they are gonna pass the ball more allowing for more pass rush opportunities and more turnovers

[Jumpsuit Jim]

I think that in today’s offense the ball comes out so quickly that the traditional edge rusher is becoming a relic much like the hike stuffing middle linebacker. By the time an edge pushes upfield and curls into the QB, the ball is gone. 

 

Instead, today’s game requires a strong push up the middle to collapse the picket, forcing the QB to essentially roll out of the pocket and into a sack. 

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Jumpsuit Jim said:

I think that in today’s offense the ball comes out so quickly that the traditional edge rusher is becoming a relic much like the hike stuffing middle linebacker. By the time an edge pushes upfield and curls into the QB, the ball is gone. 

 

Instead, today’s game requires a strong push up the middle to collapse the picket, forcing the QB to essentially roll out of the pocket and into a sack. 

 

I was mildly surprised to see how often they sent Edmunds up the middle last year. Consider that they added Oliver, and that could get even more interesting this year. 

[JimKellyTryouts]

I do anticipate DE being one of the big(ger) needs going into next offseason, with Shaq walking and lots of us remaining skeptical of Trent's health/production. We're going to be great as a cohesive unit, but I do expect that consistent pass rush will be the weakest category among itself, run defense, the stellar secondary, and our young heat seeking LBs.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

40 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Managed to be the #2 defense last year with the same pash rush. 

In yards allowed. Who cares.  Dumbest stat ever.  When the other team is winning in the 4th quarter they are running and running out the clock.  

Turnovers, sacks, 3rd down defense, red zone is what matters and they were middle of the road last year.  Edge pressure improves everything.  They have a secondary thart can compete with anyone.  If they can get some push up the middle and not let QB's step up, the edge guys are good enough to get there.  I'm most worried about a further decline in Lorax.  There is really no one on the team that can play SLB and Lorax wan't that good last year.  I agree Lawson is solid against the run but at this point I don't think he will ever be a pass rushing threat.  If Oliver gets 6 sacks and occupies multiple defenders the pass rush will be good enough.  To your point about being #2, the defense did have good games last year.  Then again, they got blown off the field in a few games too.  

 

21 minutes ago, JimKellyTryouts said:

I do anticipate DE being one of the big(ger) needs going into next offseason, with Shaq walking and lots of us remaining skeptical of Trent's health/production. We're going to be great as a cohesive unit, but I do expect that consistent pass rush will be the weakest category among itself, run defense, the stellar secondary, and our young heat seeking LBs.

Agree, I wanted Josh Allen in the first this year and I would have moved up to get him.  

Next year I want to see OLB and DE with two of the top three picks.  

Wouldn't it just be amazing if Darryl Johnson is a late round ProBowl player. The Bills could use a little draft day luck.

[njbuff]

They are eyeing Clowney for a reason.

[DCbillsfan]

33 minutes ago, JimKellyTryouts said:

I do anticipate DE being one of the big(ger) needs going into next offseason, with Shaq walking and lots of us remaining skeptical of Trent's health/production. We're going to be great as a cohesive unit, but I do expect that consistent pass rush will be the weakest category among itself, run defense, the stellar secondary, and our young heat seeking LBs.

Good news is the Bills will be in a good position to address DE early in the draft next year as well as WR.  

[njbuff]

Just now, DCbillsfan said:

Good news is the Bills will be in a good position to address DE early in the draft next year as well as WR.  

 

Are franchise changers available at 32?

 

?

[LSHMEAB]

3 minutes ago, njbuff said:

They are eyeing Clowney for a reason.

EXACTLY. Beane is not an idiot nor is McDermott, especially defensively. They're fully aware that this is a potential problem. The price wasn't right for either Clark or Clowney, but there's a reason they were linked to both. Whether you believe the reporting to be true or not is your decision. I tend to think when there's smoke, there's fire.

 

There's been some solid responses as to how this can work without addition personnel. Again, we shall see.

[vincec]

55 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

Need the DTs to get a good push up the middle.  This will help the DEs.  No pocket for QB to step up and force QB to sidestep.  Looking forward to seeing Oliver play a full game.  Does his quickness and strength wear opponents down as game progresses?

He hasn't done much in the preseason so far. It's probably going to take him some time to develop.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

16 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

In yards allowed. Who cares.  Dumbest stat ever.  When the other team is winning in the 4th quarter they are running and running out the clock.  

Turnovers, sacks, 3rd down defense, red zone is what matters and they were middle of the road last year.  Edge pressure improves everything.  They have a secondary thart can compete with anyone.  If they can get some push up the middle and not let QB's step up, the edge guys are good enough to get there.  I'm most worried about a further decline in Lorax.  There is really no one on the team that can play SLB and Lorax wan't that good last year.  I agree Lawson is solid against the run but at this point I don't think he will ever be a pass rushing threat.  If Oliver gets 6 sacks and occupies multiple defenders the pass rush will be good enough.  To your point about being #2, the defense did have good games last year.  Then again, they got blown off the field in a few games too.  

 

Agree, I wanted Josh Allen in the first this year and I would have moved up to get him.  

Next year I want to see OLB and DE with two of the top three picks.  

Wouldn't it just be amazing if Darryl Johnson is a late round ProBowl player. The Bills could use a little draft day luck.

Also, second in dvoa, which accounts for all of that. Edge rusher would be nice. More sacks would be nice. Isn’t nearly the game changer it is represented to be.

[Malazan]

Wow, the amount of fish smell coming off some posters on here is surprising

Edited August 18, 2019 by jeremy2020

[Logic]

This year, Hughes and Murphy will bring an adequate amount of pressure and the Bills defense will be very good. Murphy will have at least 10 sacks this year, in my opinion.

The main emphasis of the next offseason, though, should be beefing up the pass rush, and I trust it will be. Luckily for us we can go into that refurbishing of the position with a still-producing and recently extended Jerry Hughes, at the very least. And a big bonus: Darryl Johnson seems like he can really play. He may be a true late round steal.

I expect 2-3 new edge players to be added using premium resources in the offseason.

[brianthomas]

14 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

Wow, the amount of fish smell coming off some posters on here is surprising

Shouldnt be if you've been around here awhile

[Chandler#81]

Everybody wants Khalil Mack & his 12.5 sacks. That’s because he’s so incredibly rare, especially in this time when 3 step drops are the norm. But with this advent comes new, different ways to defend it with short zone coverage schemes, inside pressure, DLs dropping in coverage and rangy LB’s. If the QB can’t throw it in 2 seconds he’s trapped in a short, collapsing pocket. McD/Frazier rarely blitz as it vacates zones in the set D. Ed Oliver COULD be the best thing this side of Mack or Donald. 

[Happy]

I think at this point they are relying on Trent Murphy and the rookie Daryl Johnson to generate an edge rush across from Hughes.  We'll see how that plays out.

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I think at this point they are relying on Trent Murphy and the rookie Daryl Johnson to generate an edge rush across from Hughes.  We'll see how that plays out.

 

Agreed, then target edge and WR1 in the draft. The best ones are crazy expensive in FA. 

[Rocket94]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

EXACTLY. Beane is not an idiot nor is McDermott, especially defensively. They're fully aware that this is a potential problem. The price wasn't right for either Clark or Clowney, but there's a reason they were linked to both. Whether you believe the reporting to be true or not is your decision. I tend to think when there's smoke, there's fire.

 

There's been some solid responses as to how this can work without addition personnel. Again, we shall see.

Yes, they have been linked to Clark and Clowney. That tells me that they know the DE position needs to be addressed. Any lights you see on late at night at TBD is probably Beane and McDermott  watching film! Expect to see reinforcements in the future.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Rocket94

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Game planning once that starts happening you will see a lot more pressure. Now it is just individual battles 

I agree with this.  Very few guys get presure one on one consistently.  Its nice to have Mack crashing in from the edge, but very few teams have that.  

 

I may be wrong, but I'm confident the Bills will scheme to generate pressure. 

[njbuff]

I don't know that relying on Trent Murphy to get 10+ sacks is a winning strategy.

[947]

Hughes is a top-10 Edge Rusher in the NFL. Sure he's toward the bottom of that list, but led the league in % of snaps he pressured the QB. If we get even league average from the opposite DE spot & from Oliver, Hughes' sack #s will improve.

[Happy]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this.  Very few guys get presure one on one consistently.  Its nice to have Mack crashing in from the edge, but very few teams have that.  

 

I may be wrong, but I'm confident the Bills will scheme to generate pressure. 

 

I hope you are correct.  Last year they did not exactly do this, though maybe that changes this year.  McD made a comment earlier this offseason to the effect of wanting to see QB pressures.  Frazier has to play a more aggressive defense than what he did last year.

[JerseyBills]

I feel Hughes is elite , he set the all time record for hurries in a game @Min last year , passing JJ Watts. 

He consistently disrupts plays

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm getting the sense this team can compete. While I've known we weren't stacked at DE, the concern is more pronounced when you have a team on the precipise of actually doing something!

 

Murphy got a sack and generates some pressure. He's PROBABLY not gonna stay healthy. Shaq does VERY little in terms of getting after the QB. 

 

Hughes is a very, very good pass rusher, but he's not elite. I watched a particular play last night and it dawned on me that the reason for the disparity in sacks/pressures WRT Hughes is that the other side of the pocket is far too frequently clean. 

 

I can see this being a major issue defensively, especially if the offense clicks and we starting getting into games that actually resemble modern NFL football. What's the solution? Is Oliver gonna be good enough as a rookie to make THAT much of an impact on the left side of the line? Star is Star. Do you blitz more? Frazier is allergic to that concept. I tend to think the issue went unnoticed last season because we were awful offensively and didn't really FORCE the opposing QB's to go into down field mode. In these modern games, you've got to be able to make a big play or two defensively and that rarely occurs without pressure. We flirted with Clark and Clowney. That didn't come to fruition. I think the likely outcome is that McDermott has a little sitdown with Frazier to explain that you're allowed to send 5 or 6 guys after the QB. If that doesn't work, the HC may have to take over the reigns defensively once again. I could also see them getting into another 2017 "we're better than we thought" situation and trying to make a midseason acquisition. We shall see.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it's great that the Bills appear to be moving in the right direction. Still, this is a concern.

 

 

 

I think that’s why you see many of us in the Clowney thread saying now is the time to push in the chips and edge rush is a need. I’m not in love with clowney but he’s the closest to available option so he gets some noise around him.

 

if a top 15-20 edge rusher or pass catcher comes loose, I’d have very few pieces held off the table to secure them. He counts in that.

Edited August 18, 2019 by NoSaint

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I hope you are correct.  Last year they did not exactly do this, though maybe that changes this year.  McD made a comment earlier this offseason to the effect of wanting to see QB pressures.  Frazier has to play a more aggressive defense than what he did last year.

Well, I have no doubt they can get pressure with 5. But I think they will do it with four. Hughes gets his fairly consistently.  Murphy is healthy.  Oliver wI'll flash sometimes.  And Phillips.  I think it will be fine.  Not great, but good enough.  

[Utah John]

I don't think the D line will be a weak link, but among the team's units I think they'll be the least strong.  Even the O line will be better, if preseason is any indication. 

 

The Bills have a very good team in the making.  They don't have a great WR, they don't have a great pass rusher.  That's about it.

[AmishRifle]

What are ends have done well in the preseason is set the edge, not lose contain, and diagnose screens.  Pressure has been produced in spurts, normally through a line stunt.  McDermott has talked to how he defines pressure as moving the quarterback or negatively influencing the throw; not necessarily a sack or forced scramble.  I think we may walk into the regular season with what we have.  The D-line is doing just enough at this point.

[KauaiBuffaloSports]

I see the pass rush as our biggest weakness this year too. I’m a little worried that teams are going to double team Oliver in passing situations with the knowledge that star can’t get any penetration. It’s up to our defensive ends to win one on one battles if we plan on rushing 4

[LSHMEAB]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Everybody wants Khalil Mack & his 12.5 sacks. That’s because he’s so incredibly rare, especially in this time when 3 step drops are the norm. But with this advent comes new, different ways to defend it with short zone coverage schemes, inside pressure, DLs dropping in coverage and rangy LB’s. If the QB can’t throw it in 2 seconds he’s trapped in a short, collapsing pocket. McD/Frazier rarely blitz as it vacates zones in the set D. Ed Oliver COULD be the best thing this side of Mack or Donald. 

I like the detail here regarding the actual scheme McDermott employs. My counterpoint would be that Mack is less of a unicorn than Aaron Donald. When you look around the league, the guys getting sacks are still by and large coming off the edge. There's certainly an added emphasis on interior pressure with the 3 step drops; I'll give you that. It would be awesome if Oliver is that unicorn or even close to Donald despite his humble(probably dishonest) opinion.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Yup.

 

Id be interested to know what the Bills cut off is for a trade. 

 

Hopefully not too conservative with future draft picks outside of a 1st rounder.

 

If you believe we have the coach and qb, I’m not sure even a 1 is off the table for most high end guys. 

 

Few points:

 

1) that pick is hopefully late in the round

2) the guy we get at, say, 20 is likely not an immediate game breaker at DE. If we wait til next year to get a guy ready the year after...

3) we have the cap space to buy immediate impact

4) it’s going to cost. Mack is a better player but look at that package. Or amari Cooper. A young impact player that’s proven nfl worthy can be a good deal even with a one 

[SCBills]

28 minutes ago, KauaiBuffaloSports said:

I see the pass rush as our biggest weakness this year too. I’m a little worried that teams are going to double team Oliver in passing situations with the knowledge that star can’t get any penetration. It’s up to our defensive ends to win one on one battles if we plan on rushing 4

 

As long as we’re able to get subs in, there’s no reason Star should be in over Jordan Phillips on pass situations.