Josh Criticized for same throw Mayfield Praised For

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

Look at the position of receivers' feet in both catches.  

Allen put it exactly where it was supposed to be -- not leading him out in front of him because that's the throw that will get him killed (or possibly get picked off). Jones was already looking back, and didn't have to slow down at all. And he didn't even have to reach - the throw was at eye level (perfect) and right in his hands. Anyone who doesn't think that was basically a perfect throw needs to watch a lot more football. 

 

By the way, as anyone can tell you here, I've been critical of Allen's accuracy. I got roasted last season here for not blaming Charles Clay on that final throw vs. Miami. The point is that I'm hardly a homer with regard to Allen. But that was a damn good throw.

[Element115]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Allen put it exactly where it was supposed to be -- not leading him out in front of him because that's the throw that will get him killed (or possibly get picked off). Jones was already looking back, and didn't have to slow down at all. And he didn't even have to reach - the throw was at eye level (perfect) and right in his hands. Anyone who doesn't think that was basically a perfect throw needs to watch a lot more football. 

 

By the way, as anyone can tell you here, I've been critical of Allen's accuracy. I got roasted last season here for not blaming Charles Clay on that final throw vs. Miami. The point is that I'm hardly a homer with regard to Allen. But that was a damn good throw.

 

Point your toes forward and look back to catch a football from a friend.  Do the same thing with your toes pointing 90 degrees, and 0 degrees to the QB.  Let me know if you feel a difference  

 

The Mayfield and Allen passes are not the same because the receivers' positions were not the same.  Ball placement, a component of accuracy. It's an issue with Allen, it was an issue pre-draft with Allen, hence the reason it is still a point of discussion.

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 hours ago, BisonMan said:

Watching highlights this weekend, I repeatedly say replays of a throw that Mayfield made for a TD on a long pass down the middle to a WR in the end zone, who subsequently got creamed by the safety behind him.

 

Josh makes a very similar throw through a tight window that Zay drops before getting creamed by the safety behind him. 

 

Mayfield was widely praised for this score while Allen was criticized by a variety of commentators (including Tasker) for risking his WR on such a tight window throw with a safety behind him. 

 

Go figure. 

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Tasker criticizing the throw. I thought he praised the throw and said Zay would likely have avoided the hit by catching the ball.  

2 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Point your toes forward and look back to catch a football from a friend.  Do the same thing with your toes pointing 90 degrees, and 0 degrees to the QB.  Let me know if you feel a difference  

 

The Mayfield and Allen passes are not the same because the receivers' positions were not the same.  Ball placement, a component of accuracy. It's an issue with Allen, it was an issue pre-draft with Allen, hence the reason it is still a point of discussion.

If you are arguing that a QB is inaccurate if they don’t get the ball aligned to the receiver so that they are completely facing the QB, that is ridiculous. Hitting a receiver in stride on a crossing pattern or making an over the shoulder catch would preclude this. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?

[Element115]

11 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Tasker criticizing the throw. I thought he praised the throw and said Zay would likely have avoided the hit by catching the ball.  

If you are arguing that a QB is inaccurate if they don’t get the ball aligned to the receiver so that they are completely facing the QB, that is ridiculous. Hitting a receiver in stride on a crossing pattern or making an over the shoulder catch would preclude this. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

Ball placement is a measure of precision and not accuracy

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

32 minutes ago, APoxOnYou said:

This board is pretty much insufferable.

not really, just a few try to make it that way. key word, try.

[Doc]

Zay dropped a perfectly thrown pass.  Any NFL WR can and should make that catch.  I've heard the argument about the sun getting in his eyes, but he obviously saw it coming and got his hands on it so that doesn't excuse him. 

 

As for the criticism he got and Mayfield didn't, who cares?  I know what I saw.

[buffaloboyinATL]

5 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

I would argue that Allen put it on Zay specifically so he could catch it and protect himself. Had it been any further in front of him, the safety would have been able to separate him from the ball rather than hit him after the “catch”. I guess we saw it differently.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ball placement is a measure of precision and not accuracy

he and 50% are the same troll. just ignore them, scroll right over their posts and carry on the discussion with someone who isn't trying so hard to spread their agenda thread after thread. it's actually quite easy to do, the less you interact, the less they/it becomes relevant to the discussion.

Edited August 13, 2019 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[Element115]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ball placement is a measure of precision and not accuracy

 

Consistent precision is a measure of accuracy.  Accuracy is a major contributor to completion percentage.  The main reason Allen's completion percentage is so low is because he is so inconsistent. See Aaron Rodgers for the opposite of Allen when it comes to consistency.

[John from Riverside]

And the moral to this story is as it has been

 

If the WR catches the ball.....the QB is awesome

 

If the WR drops the ball......the QB is inaccurate, non clutch, indecisive (take your pick)

 

Pass catchers need to help out our QB......for sure on the passes that hit them right in the hands....but even on ones that are not perfect.

[Bevis]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

And the moral to this story is as it has been

 

If the WR catches the ball.....the QB is awesome

 

If the WR drops the ball......the QB is inaccurate, non clutch, indecisive (take your pick)

 

Pass catchers need to help out our QB......for sure on the passes that hit them right in the hands....but even on ones that are not perfect.

 

Just ask Eli Manning how that works.

[K-9]

46 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The pass was right on the money, so why are we even debating this, at least with regard to this pass??

Been wondering that myself. I can only conclude it’s because of a larger predetermined narrative about Allen. As we’ve seen with a certain poster who insists on digressing into discussion about Allen’s 52.8 completion percentage, which has NOTHING to do with Jones’s lack of playmaking ability on dropped pass.

[Bevis]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Been wondering that myself. I can only conclude it’s because of a larger predetermined narrative about Allen. As we’ve seen with a certain poster who insists on digressing into discussion about Allen’s 52.8 completion percentage, which has NOTHING to do with Jones’s lack of playmaking ability on dropped pass.

 

I really hope Jones gets cut.

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Bevis said:

 

I really hope Jones gets cut.

I’d be shocked if he did. 

 

But not surprised in the least.

[Bevis]

Just now, K-9 said:

I’d be shocked if he did. 

 

But not surprised in the least.

 

He's just not going to work out, I think it would be best to move on sooner rather than later.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Element115 said:

 

It was late, which located it behind Jones. Still should have been caught.

Jones throw/drop was late? 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Element115 said:

 

Look at the position of receivers' feet in both catches.  

Are you the new board king of dip ***** posts?

[Dat]

If you actually watch the clip, Zay has his head turned and is tracking the ball as it leaves JA's hand, if it was behind him then it was on Zay (it wasn't unless his helmet was on backwards). If you watch frame by frame the ball hits his hands and his head is already turning towards endzone/safety before he secured it.Again on Zay. I have no doubt that Brown or Beasley catch that ball, score and are not badly hit. JA had some bad throws that night, but this one was money.

[Bevis]

I wish the Bills had Moulds as a rookie in 2018, he'd pair up well with Allen.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Element115 said:

 

It was late, which located it behind Jones. Still should have been caught.

 

I thought this at first too from the side it it looked back shoulder and weird contortion. 

 

Rewatched it several times to see I was incorrect.

 

End zone camera shows it’s actually elite ball placement, albeit in a tight window. 

 

It was definitely an NFL difficulty level catch to make, but throw was incredibly accurate on a frozen rope. 

 

Donald Driver comes to mind as a guy who catches that pass every single time for a first and goal. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Bevis said:

I wish the Bills had Moulds as a rookie in 2018, he'd pair up well with Allen.

Another guy who makes that catch, and probably gets in the end zone.

 

Lee Evans is an example of a WR I do not think makes that catch. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Lagoon Blues]

Bob Lazar knows all!

[mrags]

3 hours ago, DCofNC said:

One worked, the other didn't.  Mayfield also can do no wrong in the eyes of ths media.  Hell it was celebrated when he ripped a beer can open with his teeth and chugged it on the jumbotron.. That would have gotten him shamed for days if he were virtually anyone else.

Except Josh chugged a beer and threw the can, at Mica Hyde’s softball game at Dunn Tire Park. Everyone there cheered him as he was on the Jumbotron. 

 

Just sayin

[DCOrange]

I think OP is being a little oversensitive in this particular case. Plenty of people have defended Allen's throw on the play in question.

 

Compared to Baker's throw, there's two major differences IMO:

1. Baker's WR got hit from behind rather than getting led into the hit like Allen's throw did.

2. I think Allen's pass was more accurate. He hit Zay nearly perfectly on that pass. If Baker had properly led his man, he wouldn't have been hit at all; it would have been a nice easy catch. Instead, he caused the WR to slow down and allow the trailing defender to hit him at the end.

[Bevis]

4 minutes ago, Lagoon Blues said:

Bob Lazar knows all!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEWz4SXfyCQ&t=3s

 

Anyone plan to go to that occupy Area 51 thingy?  Looks interesting.

[mrags]

31 minutes ago, Dat said:

If you actually watch the clip, Zay has his head turned and is tracking the ball as it leaves JA's hand, if it was behind him then it was on Zay (it wasn't unless his helmet was on backwards). If you watch frame by frame the ball hits his hands and his head is already turning towards endzone/safety before he secured it.Again on Zay. I have no doubt that Brown or Beasley catch that ball, score and are not badly hit. JA had some bad throws that night, but this one was money.

It was money if you mean on target. Should have been thrown earlier than it was tho. Had it been thrown earlier, Josh wouldn’t have put Zay in a position to get murdered. 

 

And before you get crazy, just know I’m a huge Allen fan. But that throw was a tad late. 

 

Still should have have been caught tho. 

[Homey D. Clown]

mayfield.  I don't like him.

[Another Fan]

It was a good throw by Allen but wow a whole thread dedicated to this?  

[sven233]

The play in question was Allen's best throw of the game.  It was money.  An NFL receiver is not only supposed to catch that, but score as well.  That was a great throw.

 

Allen had 2 bad throws in this game.  He overthrew Zay deep and threw that 3rd down curl too low.  His other incompletions happen in NFL games.  Was Allen perfect in this game?  NO!  But he wasn't awful, either.  He needs to hit those throws I just mentioned, but the one that this post is about was a great throw.

[dlonce]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

If he caught it he probably wouldve taken a decent lick, but he may have also scored the TD.  This isnt the 80s/90s - he goes head hunting and he's getting a penalty, a fine, maybe an ejection, possibly a suspension.

 

 I don’t think the DB let up, he would have taken the same hit he took.

Zay turned to look before getting the ball. That was a good pass.

[Bevis]

9 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

It was a good throw by Allen but wow a whole thread dedicated to this?  

 

This is why preseason sucks!

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Element115 said:

 

I'm sorry but the debate here and around the NFL about this topic will not go away as much as you want it to.  Modern day QB's can't have a 50% completion percentage, bottom line.  Yes, it's not all on Allen, but a good majority of it is.  If we want the Bills to win SuperBowl's, Allen cannot be a 50% passer, not even for this season. 

 

Hey Mr "completion %"...you do realize that Josh Allen was 6/11 in the preseason game for 53%...yet if Zay catches the perfect pass by Allen, he is 7/11 with a TD for 64% completion percentage right?  So just stop already with this nonsense.

 

Allen cannot be a 60% passer if his WRs do this in the video for a whole season again...interesting factoid too...Zay killed Allens stat line in the first preseason game with that drop while also showing up in this video more than any other WR too.  Seems to be a pattern here

 

 

PS:  Added bonus...Allen also had to throw a lot of passes away last year because his WRs couldn't get open consistently and his OL was not good.  Both were improved this year...that alone could easily boost Allens comp % significantly.  

Edited August 13, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Hey Mr "completion %"...you do realize that Josh Allen was 6/11 in the preseason game for 53%...yet if Zay catches the perfect pass by Allen, he is 7/11 with a TD for 64% completion percentage right?  So just stop already with this nonsense.

 

Allen cannot be a 60% passer if his WRs do this in the video for a whole season again...interesting factoid too...Zay killed Allens stat line in the first preseason game with that drop while also showing up in this video more than any other WR too.  Seems to be a pattern here

 

 

PS:  Added bonus...Allen also had to throw a lot of passes away last year because his WRs couldn't get open consistently and his OL was not good.  Both were improved this year...that alone could easily boost Allens comp % significantly.  

Math is a difficult concept for some.  Thanks for emphasizing that.

[HappyDays]

Hey guys, if a purple username shows up and starts drawing you into a long stupid argument that has exactly zero basis in fact, don't let him dupe you. It's the same guy every time. He's had at least 10 usernames on at least 2 Bills forums over the past few years. Let it go.

[Ol Dirty B]

3 hours ago, Ray Finkel said:

Good receivers make that catch.  That was a nice throw by Josh.

 

It was hardly a nice throw. There was nothing nice about it. It was late and behind, catchable, but not a nice throw.

 

Why are you all so sensitive Allen?

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

It was hardly a nice throw. There was nothing nice about it. It was late and behind, catchable, but not a nice throw.

 

Why are you all so sensitive Allen?

 

No offense, but that might be single worst analysis of that play and throw I have seen.  

[K-9]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Hey guys, if a purple username shows up and starts drawing you into a long stupid argument that has exactly zero basis in fact, don't let him dupe you. It's the same guy every time. He's had at least 10 usernames on at least 2 Bills forums over the past few years. Let it go.

Like the one directly above Alphadawg’s post above?

Edited August 13, 2019 by K-9

[Patrick Duffy]

6 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

It was hardly a nice throw. There was nothing nice about it. It was late and behind, catchable, but not a nice throw.

 

Why are you all so sensitive Allen?

 

You are sadly mistaken.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Hey guys, if a purple username shows up and starts drawing you into a long stupid argument that has exactly zero basis in fact, don't let him dupe you. It's the same guy every time. He's had at least 10 usernames on at least 2 Bills forums over the past few years. Let it go.

 

I dont see anyones user name as purple...who are you referring to

[K-9]

Just now, Patrick_Duffy said:

 

You are sadly mistaken.

I’m beginning to wonder if some around here can recognized a good pass when they see it.