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BisonMan

Josh Criticized for same throw Mayfield Praised For

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1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Is anyone really under the misguided impression that the greatest passers in history placed every ball in the absolute perfect position, on time, to be caught by their receivers;

 

You're totally missing the point.  OFC no one is saying that. They just threw/throw it more accurately more often than Allen.

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4 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

You're totally missing the point.  OFC no one is saying that. They just threw/throw it more accurately more often than Allen.

It’s not me who’s missing the point here. 

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Just now, K-9 said:

It’s not me who’s missing the point here. 

 

52.8% is the point.  After 2019, there will be another point to discuss.  We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season.

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28 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The ball was out in 2 seconds.  That's not late.

 

 

 

 

After seeing three years of this, I've seen enough. 

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Just now, Element115 said:

 

52.8% is the point.  After 2019, there will be another point to discuss.  We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season.

No, that’s not the point. The point of discussion here is the Zay Jones drop. Period.

 

If you insist on using a dropped pass as a pretense for digressing into (yet another) critique of Allen’s completion percentage, I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum.

 

But feel free, regardless. You may not want to use a dropped pass as a proof source when citing Allen’s completion percentage, though. 

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3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

No, that’s not the point. The point of discussion here is the Zay Jones drop. Period.

 

If you insist on using a dropped pass as a pretense for digressing into (yet another) critique of Allen’s completion percentage, I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum.

 

But feel free, regardless. You may not want to use a dropped pass as a proof source when citing Allen’s completion percentage, though. 

 

All QB's have balls dropped.  Yes, Allen had a high incidence of that last season, however, that was not the only or even main reason his completion percentage was so poor.

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The throw I saw criticized was the curl route that Allen threw to Zay that he caught and immediately got tackled. Cosell said he was late on that throw, which allowed the defender to make a big hit.

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1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

All QB's have balls dropped.  Yes, Allen had a high incidence of that last season, however, that was not the only or even main reason his completion percentage was so poor.

What about the term, “I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum”, is difficult to understand? 

 

Like I said, this is about one play: the Jones drop. If you’re interested in discussing the totally separate issue of Allen’s completion percentage, feel free to do so. But AFAIAC, the issue has been beaten to death and there is no new ground to hoe. 

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23 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

52.8% is the point.  After 2019, there will be another point to discuss.  We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season.

How many times on this board does it have to be brought up that completion percentage is not the same as accuracy? 

 

I don't know what Cosell and others wanted on this pass.  If he puts it out front more, then the safety might be able to make a play on the ball, or it puts him in a better position to cream Jones and knock the ball out.  He hit Jones right in the hands between the CB and safety, right in the hands, and he dropped it. 

 

When hitting a receiver right in the hands between two defenders is cause for being critical of the QB, I think that takes critiques to a ridiculous level.

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1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

How many times on this board does it have to be brought up that completion percentage is not the same as accuracy?

 

And how many times does it needed to be pointed out that accuracy is a component of completion percentage?

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1 hour ago, Element115 said:

 

That link is a 404, but I found it.

 

Mayfeild's pass is better timed, and in tighter coverage. Both plays required the receiver to adjust.

Um ... the Allen pass was right on target. Exactly where it should have been. 

35 minutes ago, K-9 said:

It’s not me who’s missing the point here. 

The pass was right on the money, so why are we even debating this, at least with regard to this pass??

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1 hour ago, Element115 said:

 

It was late, which located it behind Jones. Still should have been caught.

how many times do people have to post a replay of that play around here before a handful of you stop saying this?.... its literally not behind him and if he makes the initial catch RIGHT IN HIS HANDS AT FACEMASK LEVEL he has the chance to cover up or lunge at the endzone. it was his own stonehands and bobble that got him hung out to dry.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Um ... the Allen pass was right on target. Exactly where it should have been. 

The pass was right on the money, so why are we even debating this, at least with regard to this pass??

 

Look at the position of receivers' feet in both catches.  

Edited by Element115

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1 hour ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Great throw by Josh. Zays eyes came up before he secured the catch. Gotta be tough to go over the middle (see Andre Reed). However....its preseason. So Zay gets a pass on this one (pun intended). 

 

Does he get a pass on all the drops he’s had the last 2 seasons too that were right in his hands?  

 

Why does he get a pass here?  He’s fighting for a starting job, he’s gotta prove he deserves it because his resume says he should be on the bench as a depth WR not a starter.  

 

I’m just tired of excuses for his sub par play thus far.  He needs to show he can be reliable on the field and that Josh can trust him.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

And how many times does it needed to be pointed out that accuracy is a component of completion percentage?

And how many times does one factor out of many that affect a variable get beaten to death. 

 

I have said this many times before and will do so again here.  Let's say a QB throws 30 passes a game and completes 16.  That gives you very close to the 52.8% completion percentage to harp about.  Now let's say he completes 18 of 30.  That is the magical 60% some seem to be obsessed with.  That is a difference of two completion a game.  Now go back to last season and see how many drops or throwaways he had.  That alone gets you where you want to be.

 

I have said continually all off season that Allen needs to continue to improve, he needs to get better at his reads, get better at going to check down guys (which looked better in the first pre-season game).  And he needs receivers that actually catch the damn ball.  All of these are areas that should improve this coming year. 


So can we please for the love of God quit harping on this completion percentage nonsense as if it means anything about accuracy?  Can we please for the love of God quit criticizing Allen or any QB, for hitting guys right in the hands and somehow blaming them for the incompletion?  Can we please for the love of God quit dissecting each and every throw a second year QB makes in a preseason game as if it will definitively prove or disprove the guy's worth? 

 

If this is the depth of what some will do to critique Allen, then there will  never be a QB for the Bills, nor probably has there ever been a QB for the Bills or for any other team for that matter, than could withstand that microscopic level of scrutiny.

 

 

Edited by oldmanfan
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1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

And how many times does one factor out of many that affect a variable get beaten to death. 

 

I have said this many times before and will do so again here.  Let's say a QB throws 30 passes a game and completes 16.  That gives you very close to the 52.8% completion percentage to harp about.  Now let's say he completes 16 of 30.  That is the magical 60% some seem to be obsessed with.  That is a difference of two completion a game.  Now go back to last season and see how many drops or throwaways he had.  That alone gets you where you want to be.

 

I have said continually all off season that Allen needs to continue to improve, he needs to get better at his reads, get better at going to check down guys (which looked better in the first pre-season game).  And he needs receivers that actually catch the damn ball.  All of these are areas that should improve this coming year. 


So can we please for the love of God quit harping on this completion percentage nonsense as if it means anything about accuracy?  Can we please for the love of God quit criticizing Allen or any QB, for hitting guys right in the hands and somehow blaming them for the incompletion?  Can we please for the love of God quit dissecting each and every throw a second year QB makes in a preseason game as if it will definitively prove or disprove the guy's worth? 

 

If this is the depth of what some will do to critique Allen, then there will  never be a QB for the Bills, nor probably has there ever been a QB for the Bills or for any other team for that matter, than could withstand that microscopic level of scrutiny.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but the debate here and around the NFL about this topic will not go away as much as you want it to.  Modern day QB's can't have a 50% completion percentage, bottom line.  Yes, it's not all on Allen, but a good majority of it is.  If we want the Bills to win SuperBowl's, Allen cannot be a 50% passer, not even for this season. 

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1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

Look at the position of receivers' feet in both catches.  

Allen put it exactly where it was supposed to be -- not leading him out in front of him because that's the throw that will get him killed (or possibly get picked off). Jones was already looking back, and didn't have to slow down at all. And he didn't even have to reach - the throw was at eye level (perfect) and right in his hands. Anyone who doesn't think that was basically a perfect throw needs to watch a lot more football. 

 

By the way, as anyone can tell you here, I've been critical of Allen's accuracy. I got roasted last season here for not blaming Charles Clay on that final throw vs. Miami. The point is that I'm hardly a homer with regard to Allen. But that was a damn good throw.

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Just now, dave mcbride said:

Allen put it exactly where it was supposed to be -- not leading him out in front of him because that's the throw that will get him killed (or possibly get picked off). Jones was already looking back, and didn't have to slow down at all. And he didn't even have to reach - the throw was at eye level (perfect) and right in his hands. Anyone who doesn't think that was basically a perfect throw needs to watch a lot more football. 

 

By the way, as anyone can tell you here, I've been critical of Allen's accuracy. I got roasted last season here for not blaming Charles Clay on that final throw vs. Miami. The point is that I'm hardly a homer with regard to Allen. But that was a damn good throw.

 

Point your toes forward and look back to catch a football from a friend.  Do the same thing with your toes pointing 90 degrees, and 0 degrees to the QB.  Let me know if you feel a difference :) 

 

The Mayfield and Allen passes are not the same because the receivers' positions were not the same.  Ball placement, a component of accuracy. It's an issue with Allen, it was an issue pre-draft with Allen, hence the reason it is still a point of discussion.

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2 hours ago, BisonMan said:

Watching highlights this weekend, I repeatedly say replays of a throw that Mayfield made for a TD on a long pass down the middle to a WR in the end zone, who subsequently got creamed by the safety behind him.

 

Josh makes a very similar throw through a tight window that Zay drops before getting creamed by the safety behind him. 

 

Mayfield was widely praised for this score while Allen was criticized by a variety of commentators (including Tasker) for risking his WR on such a tight window throw with a safety behind him. 

 

Go figure. 

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Tasker criticizing the throw. I thought he praised the throw and said Zay would likely have avoided the hit by catching the ball.  

2 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

Point your toes forward and look back to catch a football from a friend.  Do the same thing with your toes pointing 90 degrees, and 0 degrees to the QB.  Let me know if you feel a difference :) 

 

The Mayfield and Allen passes are not the same because the receivers' positions were not the same.  Ball placement, a component of accuracy. It's an issue with Allen, it was an issue pre-draft with Allen, hence the reason it is still a point of discussion.

If you are arguing that a QB is inaccurate if they don’t get the ball aligned to the receiver so that they are completely facing the QB, that is ridiculous. Hitting a receiver in stride on a crossing pattern or making an over the shoulder catch would preclude this. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?

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11 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Tasker criticizing the throw. I thought he praised the throw and said Zay would likely have avoided the hit by catching the ball.  

If you are arguing that a QB is inaccurate if they don’t get the ball aligned to the receiver so that they are completely facing the QB, that is ridiculous. Hitting a receiver in stride on a crossing pattern or making an over the shoulder catch would preclude this. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

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1 minute ago, Element115 said:

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

Ball placement is a measure of precision and not accuracy

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32 minutes ago, APoxOnYou said:

This board is pretty much insufferable.

not really, just a few try to make it that way. key word, try.

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Zay dropped a perfectly thrown pass.  Any NFL WR can and should make that catch.  I've heard the argument about the sun getting in his eyes, but he obviously saw it coming and got his hands on it so that doesn't excuse him. 

 

As for the criticism he got and Mayfield didn't, who cares?  I know what I saw.

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5 minutes ago, Element115 said:

 

On the Allen throw, square in the numbers is NOT where you want ball placement, on the Mayfield throw, it IS where you want it.

I would argue that Allen put it on Zay specifically so he could catch it and protect himself. Had it been any further in front of him, the safety would have been able to separate him from the ball rather than hit him after the “catch”. I guess we saw it differently.

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