Carl Paladino: Put new stadium in Cobblestone district

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, coloradobillsfan said:

I still have not read a convincing argument that demonstrates how a football stadium that will sit idle for 300++ days per year will revitalize anything.  Baseball stadium sure, Coors Field here turned what used to be skid-row into the hottest and most active part of downtown Denver.  NO ONE considers the area around Invesco Field/Mile High a destination by any stretch of the imagination

You’re the right.  The impact is overblown.  Honestly, downtown is already seeing a Renaissance.  I think a stadium would just be a cherry on the top.   But I guess In theory,  more people will stay in hotels and spend their money downtown.  If anything, it will just hurt OP.

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, coloradobillsfan said:

I still have not read a convincing argument that demonstrates how a football stadium that will sit idle for 300++ days per year will revitalize anything.  Baseball stadium sure, Coors Field here turned what used to be skid-row into the hottest and most active part of downtown Denver.  NO ONE considers the area around Invesco Field/Mile High a destination by any stretch of the imagination

 

This.  There really aren't many worthwhile  things in Buffalo that an indoor football facility would handle that the arena cannot.  

 

 

I have been harping on a nice amphitheater downtown, similar to the Molson Amphitheatre.  That would draw in a lot of people up to 80 dates a year.

 

 

Ultimately, we need at least 1 (or more) fortune 500 companies to be headquartered downtown.  

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

So....improve the “beer in, beer out” experience? 

I’ve been to Mercedes Benz Stadium, it is pretty nice. Big wide concourses, concessions and rest rooms everywhere. Comfortable places to hang out when not in your seat. Comfortable places to eat and drink. I did not find myself longing for the chain link “concourses “ of the Old Rockpile.

[Fan in San Diego]

37 minutes ago, coloradobillsfan said:

I still have not read a convincing argument that demonstrates how a football stadium that will sit idle for 300++ days per year will revitalize anything.  Baseball stadium sure, Coors Field here turned what used to be skid-row into the hottest and most active part of downtown Denver.  NO ONE considers the area around Invesco Field/Mile High a destination by any stretch of the imagination

Look at Petco park. Tons of restaurants built into the stadium Thrives year round.

[May Day 10]

1 minute ago, Fan in San Diego said:

Look at Petco park. Tons of restaurants built into the stadium Thrives year round.

 

We are past the critical mass of restaurants and breweries without a fortune 500 company(s).

 

Also, I wouldnt want to see all the independently owned restaurants and breweries to be snuffed out by McFaddens and other large scale sports bars that are likely to open in a new NFL facility.

 

Third.... San Diego vs Buffalo.  I love Buffalo, but I will acknowledge there are many things San Diego has going for it that we do not.

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with it:

 

Paladino, whose Ellicott Development Co. already owns a significant portion of land in the neighborhood, 

 

Poloncarz sounded like he was completely against a stadium in downtown.  While a politician may not be able to stop a private entity from this, he can make it very difficult on the Pegulas.

 

Of course that's why Paladino wants to build the stadium in the Cobblestone District.  It's the way he's operated for decades in Buffalo: buy old properties in/near downtown Buffalo cheap and wait for his pals in City Hall to decide to "redevelop" the area when he can sell them for significantly more than they're worth.  One of the reasons why he went into politics several years ago was because the current Buffalo mayor, Byron Brown, isn't a Paladino crony, so his pipeline to inside City Hall information was cut off.  Poloncarz isn't a Paladino crony, either.

 

I think if the Pegulas want city/county/state money for a new stadium, they will have to make a deal with the politicians, none of whom who have the power, are fans of Paladino.  If the Pegulas choose to build a stadium with private money, then they can do what they want.  They best be careful if they deal with Paladino, though; honesty and integrity aren't his stock in trade.

[boater]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

building within the city is going to be extraordinarily complex financially, politically, legally and time consuming

Truth.

 

You just know when they break ground the first day they'll find Native American remains--and the whole project will be called off.

 

Or some endangered owl will be discovered nesting. Or some neckbearded preservationists will file an injunction.

[coloradobillsfan]

15 minutes ago, Fan in San Diego said:

Look at Petco park. Tons of restaurants built into the stadium Thrives year round.

 

Okay I just did, and it says it's a baseball park.  So I need some clarification on your point

[4_kidd_4]

Pro stadiums very, very rarely pay back into the community. It’s accepted fact, plenty of professional studies and articles out there that prove it.

 

It would be a hulking waste of prime downtown space in Cobblestone.

[JohnC]

34 minutes ago, boater said:

Truth.

 

You just know when they break ground the first day they'll find Native American remains--and the whole project will be called off.

 

Or some endangered owl will be discovered nesting. Or some neckbearded preservationists will file an injunction.

The people who advocated for building a New Peace bridge to replace or augment the decrepit old bridge know exactly what you are talking about. 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Just keep the stadium where it is. Retrofit and upgrade. 

 

If a renovation was done there is limitation on how much time it would take to make a major renovation like keeping the bowl (best part) and rebuilding rest of stadium between last game of season and first game of next even if Bills were willing to play preseason games elsewhere and NFL did a "favor" and not scheduled home games until week 3 meaning likely 3 games or more in December.  Some could be done by pre assembled pieces put together on site (have a cousin who did engineering work on this subject).  

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Just keep the stadium where it is. Retrofit and upgrade. 

 

As if that's any cheaper.

 

NEF is built half in the ground, so you can't expand concourses and make any changes that alter the footprint of what's there. So you're pretty much stuck with building new. I'm sure they are crunching the numbers but my feeling is building new in OP has less revenue potential than downtown. Let's not forget why this is being built; to get more $$$ for the NFL pot off gold.

8 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

If a renovation was done there is limitation on how much time it would take to make a major renovation like keeping the bowl (best part) and rebuilding rest of stadium between last game of season and first game of next even if Bills were willing to play preseason games elsewhere and NFL did a "favor" and not scheduled home games until week 3 meaning likely 3 games or more in December.  Some could be done by pre assembled pieces put together on site (have a cousin who did engineering work on this subject).  

 

Like @Limeaid says, where are the Bills going to play if you are doing a full renovation of NEF? 

[May Day 10]

IMO, the best answer is a new facility in the vicinity of New Era Field.  The cost between a decent one and a renovation is probably not much.

[Punching Bag]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Like @Limeaid says, where are the Bills going to play if you are doing a full renovation of NEF? 

 

Don't lump me with your campaign for a downtown stadium.  I think it is a terrible idea and I am pretty sure Erie County would not support it and I cannot see City of Buffalo running a stadium authority group.  I would rather take the pain of a year Bills playing elsewhere rather than play downtown.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

Don't lump me with your campaign for a downtown stadium.  I think it is a terrible idea and I am pretty sure Erie County would not support it and I cannot see City of Buffalo running a stadium authority group.  I would rather take the pain of a year Bills playing elsewhere rather than play downtown.

 

I was talking new wherever vs renovation. OP or downtown or under the falls, it's easier than trying to rebuild in 6 months.

[MR8]

6 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Don't lump me with your campaign for a downtown stadium.  I think it is a terrible idea and I am pretty sure Erie County would not support it and I cannot see City of Buffalo running a stadium authority group.  I would rather take the pain of a year Bills playing elsewhere rather than play downtown.

 

Agreed... no way Erie County would be interested in a new stadium build, and on top of the cost of a new stadium, building on this proposed area would require MASSIVE amounts of infrastructure to accommodate 70K people in and out of there... are you telling me people are going to drive city of buffalo streets and use the Ohio St. Bridge, thruway, and skyway to get to it? HAHAHAHAHAAH YEAH OKAY!!!!!

 

Canalside is gridlocked when a big inflatable rubber duck comes to town and there also happens to be a concert... and thats like 20K people... picture 3+times that! 

 

Renovate the Ralph! 

[Nextmanup]

Carl is right.  The only correct and obvious choice for a new stadium is right where he is suggesting.

 

Buffalo being Buffalo, it will probably end up somewhere else.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Carl is right.  The only correct and obvious choice for a new stadium is right where he is suggesting.

 

Buffalo being Buffalo, it will probably end up somewhere else.

 

 

He is never right.  

[Augie]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

I’ve been to Mercedes Benz Stadium, it is pretty nice. Big wide concourses, concessions and rest rooms everywhere. Comfortable places to hang out when not in your seat. Comfortable places to eat and drink. I did not find myself longing for the chain link “concourses “ of the Old Rockpile.

 

I actually gave up on getting to concessions a couple times when the Bills played there. Just too backed up, but it was all new, so they get a bit of a pass. I’ve been back for soccer a couple times and things were much more smooth, and actually had higher energy which shocked me. 

[ColoradoBills]

18 minutes ago, MR8 said:

 

Agreed... no way Erie County would be interested in a new stadium build, and on top of the cost of a new stadium, building on this proposed area would require MASSIVE amounts of infrastructure to accommodate 70K people in and out of there... are you telling me people are going to drive city of buffalo streets and use the Ohio St. Bridge, thruway, and skyway to get to it? HAHAHAHAHAAH YEAH OKAY!!!!!

 

Canalside is gridlocked when a big inflatable rubber duck comes to town and there also happens to be a concert... and thats like 20K people... picture 3+times that! 

 

Renovate the Ralph! 

 

It's up to the people in Erie County to decide what to do BUT I will make one suggestion.

I go back to Buffalo every year in the fall and take in a football and hockey game.

Every time getting out of the Key Bank Center I laugh at my brothers about the gridlock.

 

The 190 is right next to the parking lots and you got to travel small city streets (many cars having to make 3 left turns) to get on it.

The Buffalo 190 entrance and exits between Smith and Church streets need to be re-engineered.

Traffic flow has changed in Buffalo drastically in the last 65 years and needs to be updated.

 

I hope you guys get it done right.

[May Day 10]

13 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

It's up to the people in Erie County to decide what to do BUT I will make one suggestion.

I go back to Buffalo every year in the fall and take in a football and hockey game.

Every time getting out of the Key Bank Center I laugh at my brothers about the gridlock.

 

The 190 is right next to the parking lots and you got to travel small city streets (many cars having to make 3 left turns) to get on it.

The Buffalo 190 entrance and exits between Smith and Church streets need to be re-engineered.

Traffic flow has changed in Buffalo drastically in the last 65 years and needs to be updated.

 

I hope you guys get it done right.

 

This was my point in the other most recent stadium thread.

 

If you look at most downtown stadiums, them and their lots are most often located right at an interstate or sometimes even two.  Lots all basically empty out almost directly to an onramp.  These things flush out very quickly.  I was at a concert in Philly at the same time as a World Series game.  They both ended at fairly similar times and we were out of there and cruising on a highway in under 5 minutes.

 

The arena in Buffalo, and to a greater extent, cobblestone, are set away from the 190.  There is not a viable route to go South, and the skyway/rte 5 is an inattainable unless you head back into the city and then double back.

 

New Era Field isn't awful because you have main multi-laned streets heading out in all directions.  It isnt optimal, but I have had harder times leaving Sabres games.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I was talking new wherever vs renovation. OP or downtown or under the falls, it's easier than trying to rebuild in 6 months.

Don't the Bills own land adjacent to the stadium to fit in a new stadium? If they do it would work out well because they can keep their current training facilities at the same location where a new stadium would be built. My understanding is that building a new facility at the same location is one of the options being considered??

[PromoTheRobot]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Don't the Bills own land adjacent to the stadium to fit in a new stadium? If they do it would work out well because they can keep their current training facilities at the same location where a new stadium would be built. My understanding is that building a new facility at the same location is one of the options being considered??

 

I think the county owns whatever land is leased to the Bills. But yes, they could probably build in one of the adjacent parking lots. But how would losing 30-35% of parking affect game days?  And if they do that, do they also build  a "Patriot Place" type of development too?

Edited August 1, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[red hots]

A new stadium on its own won't revitalize downtown, but alongside other venues such as an arena, a ballpark, a convention center, which together provides a stream of year round events most definitely can.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

16 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with it:

 

Paladino, whose Ellicott Development Co. already owns a significant portion of land in the neighborhood, 

 

Poloncarz sounded like he was completely against a stadium in downtown.  While a politician may not be able to stop a private entity from this, he can make it very difficult on the Pegulas.

 

....LMAO.....Crazy Carl.....elect him for Gov and he'll pony up a billion in State funding.....

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I think the county owns whatever land is leased to the Bills. But yes, they could probably build in one of the adjacent parking lots. But how would losing 30-35% of parking affect game days?  And if they do that, do they also develop a "Patriot Place" type of development too?

However one looks at the issue there are difficult choices to make. Obviously financing is a big issue. But in some respect that is one of the simpler issues when considering the other problems associated with building a new facility somewhere. 

[PromoTheRobot]

38 minutes ago, JohnC said:

However one looks at the issue there are difficult choices to make. Obviously financing is a big issue. But in some respect that is one of the simpler issues when considering the other problems associated with building a new facility somewhere. 

 

One money saving thing you could do in Orchard Park is put part of the stadium in the ground, just like NEF.

[Misterbluesky]

Any response from Albany...   

[RiotAct]

7 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

Canalside is gridlocked when a big inflatable rubber duck comes to town and there also happens to be a concert... and thats like 20K people... picture 3+times that! 

 

Renovate the Ralph! 

agree. It’s a frigging rat’s nest down there.

 

Hey, maybe Templeton Landing will open up their parking lot to everyone, THAT will alleviate some of the traffic!

[BullBuchanan]

On 7/31/2019 at 9:59 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

https://buffalonews.com/2019/07/31/paladino-urges-new-bills-stadium-in-cobblestone-district/

This guy is still around? Thought he was finally put out to pasture for good.

[MJS]

On 7/31/2019 at 10:11 PM, mrags said:

So is Brian Moorman. But everyone here loves him for some reason. 

Ah, did he not sign your Moorman jersey?

[MJS]

16 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

I've had numerous interactions with Moorman and found him to be nothing but positive, kind, and supportive of local causes.  He donated both money and memrobilia to different groups I was part of without asking for anything in return, he was quick to reply, gave me his personal cell number for questions, and was wonderful to work with.

 

Not sure where this comes from, but MR8 stands for my user name MoormanRules8 on the old defunct BBMB... the dude was a great ambassador for Buffalo as a player, and has never been anything but a good kind person in all the personal and public interaction I've had with him... 

Yeah I've only heard good things about Moorman. There are one or two posters here that don't like him. Spurned fans I guess.

[Rochesterfan]

Whether Crazy Carl says it or not - that is one of the major areas that was being discussed and makes a ton of sense with the other Pegula buildings in the area.

 

If they extend the “subway” and the rail line - you could funnel the people in and out and maintain space for 20,000 people parking around the stadium.  Plus with the hotels, food, bars, and casino - there are things to do after the game to enjoy the area.  

 

However they want to do it - there is already the beginning of growth in that area and using the stadium to help expand and solidify the growth makes sense.  

 

Using some of the harbor for Sept and October “parking” is another option and would make for some beautiful shots pre-game.  

 

With the Casino, the newer restaurants, and some of the newer hotels - a new stadium and probably some additional amenities would certainly add to the ambiance of the area.

 

I get the appeal of a redo in Orchard Park, but I think that does the least for the long term viability and health of the team and the city.  It makes so much more sense to continue the downtown push and then keep working on ways to bring additional companies into the fold.

 

In the end - I don’t care - I will go to my 3 or 4 games a year - where they are and enjoy the game and the fans I love.  I just hope as I get older - the facilities get better and more accommodating because the December games have gotten harder the last few years.

[yall]

To this day, I still don't understand what our current stadium lacks beyond maybe a party area where people can congregate, grab some concessions and watch the game. 

 

In terms of actually serving it's purpose of being a functional venue for watching an NFL game it's most certainly adequate.

 

What will a new stadium have that the current one doesn't, and of those offerings/amenities which could not be incorporated into the existing facility? I'm not sure I've ever heard a reasonable response to that.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, yall said:

To this day, I still don't understand what our current stadium lacks beyond maybe a party area where people can congregate, grab some concessions and watch the game. 

 

In terms of actually serving it's purpose of being a functional venue for watching an NFL game it's most certainly adequate.

 

What will a new stadium have that the current one doesn't, and of those offerings/amenities which could not be incorporated into the existing facility? I'm not sure I've ever heard a reasonable response to that.

The two missing elements are covered seating and larger concourse areas. Both of those things can be ‘fixed’ way faster and considerably cheaper than building an entirely new facility. Now with that said, many have commented that the stadium concrete structure itself is deteriorating after 50 years, which makes many believe renovations would be throwing good money after bad. 

[yall]

Yeah deteriorating superstructure is a different concern altogether. If that were the driving factor in this conversation it would make more sense.

 

It's a shame there is about 1000ft of residential track between the parking lots and the McKinley mall. If it were all fields they could convert that old dump to a hotel, retail space and other amenities and just connect via tram.

[SoTier]

19 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

As if that's any cheaper.

 

NEF is built half in the ground, so you can't expand concourses and make any changes that alter the footprint of what's there. So you're pretty much stuck with building new. I'm sure they are crunching the numbers but my feeling is building new in OP has less revenue potential than downtown. Let's not forget why this is being built; to get more $$$ for the NFL pot off gold.

 

Like @Limeaid says, where are the Bills going to play if you are doing a full renovation of NEF? 

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

 

Good points on the options of places the Bills could play if NEF is renovated.  I would guess UB would be a less likely option due to the small capacity.  The Carrier Dome seems like a possibility.  Here is another possibility, and one that may not be too popular - what about the Bills playing in Toronto?  The Rodgers Center has a dome and a capacity of >58K, where the Bills played a home game for a couple of (miserable) seasons.  Could be an option, though not a popular one.

[yall]

44 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

snip

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

snip

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a downtown stadium, but have you been in that part of the City on a Sunday? I'm having trouble envisioning a negative impact on the current level of commerce. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

 

UB stadium is so grossly inadequate to host an NFL team, even temporarily, it's no even funny. Don't forget it's not just seating capacity but data network infrastructure for teams and media. Carrier Dome would be a step better but still inadequate. Here's a thought....what about Penn State's Beaver Stadium? 106,572 capacity, plenty of suites, likely sufficient data structure. Downside is it's a 4-hour drive down mostly 2-lane highways. But I bet Terry Pegula has some pull. 

28 minutes ago, yall said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a downtown stadium, but have you been in that part of the City on a Sunday? I'm having trouble envisioning a negative impact on the current level of commerce. 

 

Seriously. it's a freakin' ghost town right now. If you ask businesses if they would be against having thousands of people downtown on a Sunday they would look at you sideways.

Edited August 2, 2019 by PromoTheRobot