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PromoTheRobot

Carl Paladino: Put new stadium in Cobblestone district

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Yeah deteriorating superstructure is a different concern altogether. If that were the driving factor in this conversation it would make more sense.

 

It's a shame there is about 1000ft of residential track between the parking lots and the McKinley mall. If it were all fields they could convert that old dump to a hotel, retail space and other amenities and just connect via tram.

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19 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

As if that's any cheaper.

 

NEF is built half in the ground, so you can't expand concourses and make any changes that alter the footprint of what's there. So you're pretty much stuck with building new. I'm sure they are crunching the numbers but my feeling is building new in OP has less revenue potential than downtown. Let's not forget why this is being built; to get more $$$ for the NFL pot off gold.

 

Like @Limeaid says, where are the Bills going to play if you are doing a full renovation of NEF? 

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

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2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

 

Good points on the options of places the Bills could play if NEF is renovated.  I would guess UB would be a less likely option due to the small capacity.  The Carrier Dome seems like a possibility.  Here is another possibility, and one that may not be too popular - what about the Bills playing in Toronto?  The Rodgers Center has a dome and a capacity of >58K, where the Bills played a home game for a couple of (miserable) seasons.  Could be an option, though not a popular one.

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44 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

snip

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

snip

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a downtown stadium, but have you been in that part of the City on a Sunday? I'm having trouble envisioning a negative impact on the current level of commerce. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

A renovated/rebuilt NEF or a new stadium near the current one on land already owned by the county would be infinitely cheaper than building a downtown stadium, especially in the Cobblestone District.  The biggest savings would come from not having land acquisition and massive infrastructure improvement costs, but it would also be a savings in time since the stadium builders (county/state/Bills) would avoid litigation (especially eminent domain issues) and massive road building/reconfiguration.

 

Whatever extra revenue that would come from siting the stadium downtown is more than balanced out by the higher costs as well as the loss of downtown land that could be developed into much more revenue generating business activity that benefits many more people than a football stadium.  A downtown stadium would likely adversely affect many downtown businesses on game days because of traffic issues (including crowded subway cars).

 

Finally, the Bills could limp along for a season playing games at the UB Stadium and/or at the Carrier Dome in Syracuse.  The UB Stadium holds 25,000 and is configured for football -- the Chargers have been playing in a 25k soccer stadium for at least 2 seasons, so it can be done.  The Bears played their home games in Champagne, Ill (135 miles) while Soldier Field was being rebuilt, and the Packers played some games in Milwaukee for a number of years, which is about 120 miles away.

 

 

UB stadium is so grossly inadequate to host an NFL team, even temporarily, it's no even funny. Don't forget it's not just seating capacity but data network infrastructure for teams and media. Carrier Dome would be a step better but still inadequate. Here's a thought....what about Penn State's Beaver Stadium? 106,572 capacity, plenty of suites, likely sufficient data structure. Downside is it's a 4-hour drive down mostly 2-lane highways. But I bet Terry Pegula has some pull. 

28 minutes ago, yall said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a downtown stadium, but have you been in that part of the City on a Sunday? I'm having trouble envisioning a negative impact on the current level of commerce. 

 

Seriously. it's a freakin' ghost town right now. If you ask businesses if they would be against having thousands of people downtown on a Sunday they would look at you sideways.

Edited by PromoTheRobot

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2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The two missing elements are covered seating and larger concourse areas. Both of those things can be ‘fixed’ way faster and considerably cheaper than building an entirely new facility. Now with that said, many have commented that the stadium concrete structure itself is deteriorating after 50 years, which makes many believe renovations would be throwing good money after bad. 

 

You forget that half the stadium is in the ground, making expanding concourses impossible. And with an upper deck in questionable shape, how do you support a roof over seating?  Build new or nothing.

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5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You forget that half the stadium is in the ground, making expanding concourses impossible. And with an upper deck in questionable shape, how do you support a roof over seating?  Build new or nothing.

 

I think the logistics of holding games elsewhere (most likely) as well as the structural limitations make a full reno a somewhat unlikely option and increase the costs.  I would think the delta between building a new Heinz/FirstEnergy/CenturyLink stadium at an adjacent lot versus a renovation of NEF is fairly small.  

Small enough for it to be slam dunk to just start from scratch with a new shiny facility

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44 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

UB stadium is so grossly inadequate to host an NFL team, even temporarily, it's no even funny. Don't forget it's not just seating capacity but data network infrastructure for teams and media. Carrier Dome would be a step better but still inadequate. Here's a thought....what about Penn State's Beaver Stadium? 106,572 capacity, plenty of suites, likely sufficient data structure. Downside is it's a 4-hour drive down mostly 2-lane highways. But I bet Terry Pegula has some pull. 

 

Seriously. it's a freakin' ghost town right now. If you ask businesses if they would be against having thousands of people downtown on a Sunday they would look at you sideways.

 

 

The Carrier Dome doesn't have "sufficient data network infrastructure"  to host and NFL game?  I bet that would be news to Syracuse University.

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21 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

Any response from Albany...   

Only thing we have heard is "Do NYC teams need more money even if they play in NJ?"

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1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The Carrier Dome doesn't have "sufficient data network infrastructure"  to host and NFL game?  I bet that would be news to Syracuse University.

 

I think PTR is right about this.  For some reason, I remember hearing/reading about the data network in the Carrier Dome not being sufficient for the NFL.  There is probably a bandwidth difference between what the NFL needs vs what college football needs.

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11 hours ago, MJS said:

Ah, did he not sign your Moorman jersey?

I’d never be stupid enough to get a jersey of the punter. So no. Don’t have to worry about that 

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6 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

Only thing we have heard is "Do NYC teams need more money even if they play in NJ?"

 

It's interesting that you would choose a stadium that was completely financed by the teams that play in it ( on land leased from the state of New Jersey) to make whatever point you were trying to make about the Bills and NYS.

 

 

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Rule #47 to live by - do the opposite of what a PalaDINO says.

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12 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I think PTR is right about this.  For some reason, I remember hearing/reading about the data network in the Carrier Dome not being sufficient for the NFL.  There is probably a bandwidth difference between what the NFL needs vs what college football needs.

 

The Chargers will be playing their 3rd season in the "Dignity Health Sports Park Stadium"  on the campus of Cal State-Dominguez Hills...a crappy little soccer stadium with under 30,000 seats.  I'm sure if  the bandwith there (their big draw is the LA GAlaxy) is sufficient for an NFL team, the Dome, where nationally televised D1 games are held annually, has adequate bandwith.

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Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Chargers will be playing their 3rd season in the "Dignity Health Sports Park Stadium"  on the campus of Cal State-Dominguez Hills...a crappy little soccer stadium with under 30,000 seats.  I'm sure if  the bandwith there (their big draw is the LA GAlaxy) is sufficient for an NFL team, the Dome, where nationally televised D1 games are held annually, has adequate bandwith.

 

You're probably correct about the LA stadiums.  I was just stating what I remember hearing/reading about the Carrier Dome a while back.

Actually, I found a couple of links -

From 2014:  https://www.nunesmagician.com/2014/11/21/7257733/carrier-dome-nfl-bills-jets-syracuse

From 2018 https://www.syracuse.com/orangesports/2018/05/syracuse_details_118_million_in_carrier_dome_renovations_including_permanent_roo.html?__vfz=rtw_top_pages%3D9789600014006  which mentions wireless upgrades needed, as well as A/C upgrade (maybe Carrier can help out here)

And a TBD thread about just this topic from last year 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, yall said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a downtown stadium, but have you been in that part of the City on a Sunday? I'm having trouble envisioning a negative impact on the current level of commerce. 

 

If you are talking about the CBD, yes it is mostly empty because  most buildings are filled with traditional 9-5, M-F type enterprises, but there are businesses there -- mostly restaurants, bars, gyms, theaters, etc.   Most are small places, but that doesn't mean that they should be kicked to the curb in order to build a sports palace that's used maybe 30 times a year at best.  Moreover,  'Downtown' is more than the CBD; Canalside and Erie Basin Marina are part of downtown, too, and the businesses there are packed on Sundays, especially in the summer and early fall.  The buildings these businesses in are on the tax rolls; a city/county/state owned stadium wouldn't be.

 

There are about 5-7k people living in the CBD and the outlying parts of downtown like Waterfront Village, Johnson Park,  the Theatre District. These people would find their lives signifcantly impacted by crowds of 70k people filling their streets, parking illegally, etc  The residents of the Marine Drive apartments and the Waterfront Village would find it difficult if not  impossible to get in or out of their neighborhoods on game days/nights.

Edited by SoTier

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4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Here's a thought....what about Penn State's Beaver Stadium? 106,572 capacity, plenty of suites, likely sufficient data structure. Downside is it's a 4-hour drive down mostly 2-lane highways. But I bet Terry Pegula has some pull. 

 

if you are going to be playing in alternate place for part of all of season and NFL needs to go along with that why not use a real NFL stadium rather than Penn State's - Steelers stadium.  Schedule would need to work like NJ Jiants/Jets and it is a little harder because in conference but possible.  If both made playoffs it would be real tricky especially if Bills were then "home" team but at least the NFL crews are familiar with stadium.

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On 8/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, coloradobillsfan said:

 

Okay I just did, and it says it's a baseball park.  So I need some clarification on your point

Yes its a stadium for baseball. But the restaurants and stores embedded in the stadium at the street level on the sidewalks around the park are open year round and it is an asset to the downtown core district.

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I was going to buy a condo downtown a few years back by Ellicott Development. I wish I had now.

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Paladino is an ass, I know a bunch of his relatives and they are good folks but he is an arrogant #######.

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Question to anyone living downtown or close to downtown. Do you think buying a condo downtown is a good investment and or a even good idea?

 

 

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