What does our defensive line base look like?

[maryland-bills-fan]

There is something to be said for a defensive line rotation.  The offensive line is a unit which works together and the whole is (if properly coached) more than the sum of the parts.  They do tire by the 4th quarter and if the D-line is stronger, because they can go all out on every play, then there is value for the defense in that.

 

Likewise, in the defensive backfield, the CB's and safeties are not substitued that often, if at all.   Running a number of deep patterns on them, with different WR can create the same effect.

[Mark92]

I can not wait to see Oliver lined up single coverage in the 3T on this line.  He is going live in the opponents backfield. No matter how great Kyle was he definitely had lost a step the past 3-4 years.  Oliver will bring youth and more speed.   How many sacks is this guy going to get as a rookie?   10 would not shock me at all.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by Mark92

[maryland-bills-fan]

2 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

I can not wait to see Oliver lined up single coverage in the 3T on this line.  He is going live in the opponents backfield.  How many sacks is this guy going to get as a rookie?   10 would not shock me at all.  

I wonder if our defensive ends will look much better when the defense has to double up on both Star and Oliver?

 

[Mark92]

They probably will end up doubling Oliver as the season goes on but to start the season I bet they will try not.  They will see his size and think single coverage will slow him up.  This leads to another topic about how important edge rushers are going to be.  If they double Oliver thats going to leave a hole somewhere.  I bet either through trade, FA oe next year's draft they will find at least one starter at DE that can attack the QB.  

As good as the D was last year I really think they will be better this year.  I truly believe Oliver will step right into Kyle's spot and the line won't miss a beat.  He's that good.  Edmonds is still 20 years old and had a decent rookie year.  That's pretty crazy.  20 year old rookie MLB that did an overall good job.  He's going to be a force in a year or two and will only be 22 ?.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by Mark92

[BuffaloBill]

8 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Yeah I’d be willing to bet that heavy rotation goes out the window now. 

 

 

I doubt it. The rotation is about keeping players healthy and fresh as both games and the season go past. 

[CSBill]

8 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

I actually didn’t have a specific guy I wanted.  But thanks for reading my mind. And now that it seems you have a personal thing for me, which is absolutely adorable, let me explain. 

 

The Top 10 pick should be an immediate impact player. Someone who should be a consistent starter.  

 

I didn’t think we stood a chance to get Bosa or Josh Allen.  Those, to me, were the biggest impact players.   When Allen fell past 5, I immediately wanted them to trade up.  Anything higher than that wasn’t worth what we’d have to give up. 

 

Once he went, I wanted Hock as that’s a huge need on our offense. 

 

So yes, I’m disappointed in Oliver.  Not because I don’t like the kid. In fact, I loved how he’s reacted and handled himself since being drafted.  My issue is how he will be used.  I don’t want any player at 9 that isn’t a full time starter.  If he’s going to make Harrison take a back seat, okay.  But it not, then I’m not a fan.  I’d have rathered a trade back, OLB, TE, or OT.  

 

I’m happy we got Ford in the 2nd. I’m not sure how I feel about Knox as his production didn’t show up in college.  Foster’s one of the few players I can think of that’s found a way to turn it on in then NFL. 

 

So, please pick your fight elsewhere.  I overall know that the organization knows 1000% more than anyone else on this board and their drafts the past two years have the best I’ve seen.  

 

Also, please utilize grammar.  Reading your horrific syntax makes me go cross-eyed

3

 

I have found this to be quite helpful: https://www.grammarly.com

Edited April 28, 2019 by CSBill

[CaptnCoke11]

21 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

I doubt it. The rotation is about keeping players healthy and fresh as both games and the season go past. 

Not when you have game changer.. Rams aren’t taking Donald off the field that much at all.  

 

I doubt they'd draft a player at 9 to play 50-60% of the snaps.  That’s just ridiculous 

Edited April 28, 2019 by CaptnCoke11

[3rdand12]

8 hours ago, Juice_32 said:

I don’t think so, simply because of the snap counts from last season at DT. They were on a pretty even rotation.

 

Oliver is essentially replacing Kyle. All 4 of them will be getting a ton of snaps, no less than last season.

Kyle,  i think  ? i read some where sometime took 5o + percent of snaps !! last year
 they do like a strong rotation though. Bills are getting some flexibility to move guys around with Oliver.
 

7 hours ago, vincec said:

It will be a heavy rotation. McDermott and Frazier aren't going to change their basic philosophy over a rookie. Maybe if he actually does turn into Aaron Donald they will make some adjustments but not at this point.

Like i said, they hope to move him around. he might get a serious workout some days : )

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I feel like a move for another DE is coming. We didn't add a single edge rusher until the 7th round. No way they believe in Shaq Lawson and Trent Murphy that much. I also expect Hughes to get an extension.

hmmm. we shall see what the Witch is brewing up.
 if Trent is healthy ? he a fine player, and Lawson is good for something. First downs and edge sealing should not be discounted. allows LBs and secondary to play more.
he just is not an elite  player and will get paid fairly.
Bills might let it ride though. Dangle the carrot of a payday via solid and or better season

i like both of them

 they each have a need to trend up a bit : )

Edited April 28, 2019 by 3rdand12

[TPS]

Normal rotation:

group 1: Shaq Star  Ed  Jerry

group 2: Murf Harry JPhillips Yarbrough

 

nickel pass rush: Murphy Zo Mr Ed. Jerry

short yardage: Star sandwiched by Phillips.

 

 

[vincec]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I feel like a move for another DE is coming. We didn't add a single edge rusher until the 7th round. No way they believe in Shaq Lawson and Trent Murphy that much. I also expect Hughes to get an extension.

If only they could. Who is left? DE certainly isn't a strength and it's one injury to Hughes away from being a major problem.

[MasterStrategist]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

With McD primarily running a nickel defense, what does our starting defensive line look like (also taking rotation into effect). 

 

Granted, I know we run different packages, short yardage, etc, but I’m still curious how we are going to use all of these guys in a way that justifies what we gave up for them. 

 

Oliver - #9 overall 

Star - Big Contract 

Harrison Phillips - 3rd rounder just last year 

Jordan Phillips - Just re-signed 4.5 mil

 

I’m assuming 

 

Base D - Star (2 man clog) Oliver (Rush)

Short Yardage - Star/Jordan

Pass Rush - Oliver/Harrison 

 

There’s also a wide 9 they sometimes run which might have Harrison - Star - Oliver.  

 

In any case, it seems like Harrison just got the short end of the stick to me.

 

Does Oliver line up at DE on some plays with Lorax beside him?  Lorax - Oliver - Harrison - Star - Hughes

 

Am I interpreting this the right way?

To answer your questions, my opinion:

1. Many teams, especially attacking 4-3s like ours, run defensive line rotations/frequent substitutions. This includes Seattle, Atlanta, Philly, Dallas, us. etc.

 

2. Any given Sunday, I'd expect our starting 4 would be: Hughes, Star, Oliver, and Shaq (barring injury to these men)

 

3. Murphy, Yarbrough (as of now) and both Phillips get used in the normal rotation (non-situation driven)

 

4. Obvious passing situations, I would expect: Hughes, Oliver, Zo, and Murphy.  This is the wide 9 grouping, minus Kyle that they ran last year.  With Kyle lined up next to Hughes and running frequent Texas stunts

 

5.  Obvious short yardage (goal line): i would expect all 4 defensive tackles on the field, along with 2 defensive ends. Typically aligning the tackles in the 1 eye and 2 eye techniques

 

Any attacking 4-3 system requires basically the equivalent of 2 waves/rotations.  Because they are asked to penetrate and shoot gaps every single play, they should never be taking a down off and gives them more opportunity to stay fresh for the entire game.

 

Regarding Oliver, it is very obvious that we needed a 3-technique to replace Kyle.  Oliver was the best option to fit in our defense. 

 

Not that we had the choice, but I still thin they would have drafted Oliver over Allen.  Oliver plays the 2nd most important role on Mcdermotts defense (behind MLB).  And based on his pre draft comments, inside pressure was a focus

[TigerJ]

I don't see ha heavy rotation as being a problem.  Oliver is a 280 lb defensive tackle.  As such, I think he needs to be spelled periodically to maintain his effectiveness.  His value is not in being an iron man, but in being incredibly disruptive when he is playing.

[RyanC883]

I read somewhere that Oliver can be moved all over the D-line.  (CBS Sports?).   With his athletic ability, I'm sure that's something the Bills will at least consider.  Try blocking someone who is moving around from play to play.  DT here, DE there.  

 

Although as someone else mentioned, I like his DT ability for the quickest route to the QB.  Should hopefully mess up other QB's and Brady's rhythm.  

Edited April 28, 2019 by RyanC883

[DCbillsfan]

7 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

I guess it’s about investment to me.  We paid a bunch for Star. A 3rd round pick isn’t a throw away.  Jordan hasn’t been a lot, thankfully. And now a 9th overall. 

 

From that perspective, I really would hope to see this line dominate and free up our DE’s and LBs

I think Oliver is going to blow up any concerns that you may have about him and his selection.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

DT is not an immediate impact position especially as a rookie. If he has 8 sacks rushing from the DT spot that would be amazing. I just hope he isn't a liability in the run game. 

Agree he will help pass rush for others. But a rookie penetrating DT can get out of position quickly in defending the run game.

There is no point in stating anymore I wanted Allen or Hock. It's history now.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

19 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

I guess it’s about investment to me.  We paid a bunch for Star. A 3rd round pick isn’t a throw away.  Jordan hasn’t been a lot, thankfully. And now a 9th overall. 

 

From that perspective, I really would hope to see this line dominate and free up our DE’s and LBs

They are TOTALLY different though. It’s like saying, “we have Benjamin why would we want Beasley?” The reality, is that the position is played a lot of different ways. Oliver plays a different game than Star. They aren’t apple and oranges. They are apples and vacuum cleaners.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Kirby Jackson

[HomeTeam]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If the concern is the number of snaps Oliver is going to get I wouldn’t worry about it. He will be out there a lot and used to his strengths. Oliver is going to be a superstar because of that athleticism whether he’s plays 50% of the snaps, 60% or 100%. His impact won’t just be felt by his numbers either. You’ll see an uptick in production from the edge guys and in turnovers because he will be living in the backfield.

Jerry Hughes is one happy camper right now. QBs won't be able to step up into the pocket resulting in more sacks for him. 

[Putin]

9 hours ago, Juice_32 said:

I don’t think so, simply because of the snap counts from last season at DT. They were on a pretty even rotation.

 

Oliver is essentially replacing Kyle. All 4 of them will be getting a ton of snaps, no less than last season.

So Oliver is penciled in as a starter right of the bat ? Or will he have to compete and EARN it , I know McBean and all of us are hoping that he earns the starting job( easily)

because listening to McBean every other word out of his mouth is (COMPETITION ) will ultimately decide who is # 1 /2 or 3 that was his response when he was asked about OL and DL as well !!! 

 

 

 

[formerlyofCtown]

10 hours ago, Virgil said:

With McD primarily running a nickel defense, what does our starting defensive line look like (also taking rotation into effect). 

 

Granted, I know we run different packages, short yardage, etc, but I’m still curious how we are going to use all of these guys in a way that justifies what we gave up for them. 

 

Oliver - #9 overall 

Star - Big Contract 

Harrison Phillips - 3rd rounder just last year 

Jordan Phillips - Just re-signed 4.5 mil

 

I’m assuming 

 

Base D - Star (2 man clog) Oliver (Rush)

Short Yardage - Star/Jordan

Pass Rush - Oliver/Harrison 

 

There’s also a wide 9 they sometimes run which might have Harrison - Star - Oliver.  

 

In any case, it seems like Harrison just got the short end of the stick to me.

 

Does Oliver line up at DE on some plays with Lorax beside him?  Lorax - Oliver - Harrison - Star - Hughes

 

Am I interpreting this the right way?

Welcome to the NFL.  

 

In case you havent noticed we use a line rotation.  

 

You have to earn your job on this team.

[BillsFan17]

7 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Kyle was a 6th time pro bowl selection? Sure he had lost a few steps, and I hope Oliver is better than him, a real gem, a 95% Darnold! But so far, he is an unproven rookie, while Kyle delivered for years and years. People are so in love with draft picks. Milano is a 5th rounder that turned out pretty damn good. Many undrafted guys have been impact players. And... many 1st rounders have been "busts", and not as in Canton HoF busts.... What matters is NFL play, not potential or draft rank.

 

 

Again, Kyle at the end of his career is different than a ninth overall pick Oliver.

 

No one knocked Kyle Williams 

No one knocked his Pro Bowl selections, although the Pro Bowl is an absolute joke.

No one said you can't find players all over the draft.

 

The point was about the rotation of players. A towards the end of their career Kyle Williams isn't going to play the volume of snaps a ninth overall pick will. Nothing more, nothing less.

[The Now Moment]

13 minutes ago, HomeTeam said:

Jerry Hughes is one happy camper right now. QBs won't be able to step up into the pocket resulting in more sacks for him. 

That's why it was an important position to fill.  It's not just what he produces but what he does for Hughes, Murphy and Lawson. 

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

DT is not an immediate impact position especially as a rookie. If he has 8 sacks rushing from the DT spot that would be amazing. I just hope he isn't a liability in the run game. 

Agree he will help pass rush for others. But a rookie penetrating DT can get out of position quickly in defending the run game.

There is no point in stating anymore I wanted Allen or Hock. It's history now.

 

I hate bringing up Aaron Donald because everyone and their mother is doing it but that's the most ideal comparison right now and he put up those numbers as a rookie from the DT position. So it's possible if Ed wants it, and I'm certain he want it.

[BobbyC81]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

I guess it’s about investment to me.  We paid a bunch for Star. A 3rd round pick isn’t a throw away.  Jordan hasn’t been a lot, thankfully. And now a 9th overall. 

 

From that perspective, I really would hope to see this line dominate and free up our DE’s and LBs

 

Yes, I was recently looking at Sporttrac and saw that Star has the highest salary on the team for 2019

[Luka]

Wait until you see him flexed out to the edge in big packages...

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Putin said:

So Oliver is penciled in as a starter right of the bat ? Or will he have to compete and EARN it , I know McBean and all of us are hoping that he earns the starting job( easily)

because listening to McBean every other word out of his mouth is (COMPETITION ) will ultimately decide who is # 1 /2 or 3 that was his response when he was asked about OL and DL as well !!! 

 

 

 

 

Hed have to flop massively to not have the spot. Even worst case he’s getting a ton of reps in a standard rotation, regardless of who is in the first snap. 

[Rocket94]

3 hours ago, vincec said:

If only they could. Who is left? DE certainly isn't a strength and it's one injury to Hughes away from being a major problem.

I feel something brewing too. We already know that they contacted Clark, Ansah and Clowney. So obviously they are cognizant of it. Murphy and Lawson are not doing it. This team is in the midst of an expedited rebuild...how long can they wait?

[Buffalo716]

The goal of any football team should be to put the best team on the field...

 

Nothing wrong with good depth...

 

McDermott likes to use a 1 technique and a 3 technique in his 43 over/under and nickel defense a lot 

 

since Harrison was used at the 1 tech with Star last year I assume the 1 Tech will be Star with H Phillips spelling him

 

at the 3... Oliver with J Phillips spelling him

 

if we run a wide 9 I do not see 3 DTs on the field... swing the wide 9 is named for the 9 technique both ends play... Hughes and Murphy are really the only 9 techs we have with maybe Harold

 

so their will be two 3/5 techs available for that formation... probably Oliver and J Phillips or maybe H Phillips ... forgot Alexander 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 hours ago, Rampage said:

I hate bringing up Aaron Donald because everyone and their mother is doing it but that's the most ideal comparison right now and he put up those numbers as a rookie from the DT position. So it's possible if Ed wants it, and I'm certain he want it.

Hope so. Donald was completely neutralized in NFC Championship and SuperBowl. I think they called his name once against the Pats

Edited April 29, 2019 by Ethan in Portland

[GunnerBill]

Our base Dline should be:

 

Lawson as the 7 tech (big end)

Oliver as the 3 tech (under tackle)

Star as the 1 tech (nose tackle)

Hughes as the 9 tech (rush end)

 

Murphy may play about 11 snaps as the 7 tech before he is injured again. But I don't hold out much hope.

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

To answer your questions, my opinion:

1. Many teams, especially attacking 4-3s like ours, run defensive line rotations/frequent substitutions. This includes Seattle, Atlanta, Philly, Dallas, us. etc.

 

2. Any given Sunday, I'd expect our starting 4 would be: Hughes, Star, Oliver, and Shaq (barring injury to these men)

 

3. Murphy, Yarbrough (as of now) and both Phillips get used in the normal rotation (non-situation driven)

 

4. Obvious passing situations, I would expect: Hughes, Oliver, Zo, and Murphy.  This is the wide 9 grouping, minus Kyle that they ran last year.  With Kyle lined up next to Hughes and running frequent Texas stunts

 

5.  Obvious short yardage (goal line): i would expect all 4 defensive tackles on the field, along with 2 defensive ends. Typically aligning the tackles in the 1 eye and 2 eye techniques

 

Any attacking 4-3 system requires basically the equivalent of 2 waves/rotations.  Because they are asked to penetrate and shoot gaps every single play, they should never be taking a down off and gives them more opportunity to stay fresh for the entire game.

 

Regarding Oliver, it is very obvious that we needed a 3-technique to replace Kyle.  Oliver was the best option to fit in our defense. 

 

Not that we had the choice, but I still thin they would have drafted Oliver over Allen.  Oliver plays the 2nd most important role on Mcdermotts defense (behind MLB).  And based on his pre draft comments, inside pressure was a focus

 

Excellent post and I agree with every word of it. I make you 100% right on the last sentence. I honestly believe that the top two guys on Buffalo's board were Ed Oliver and Quinnen Williams as 1A and 1B. If either of those guys were there they were taking them regardless of who else was left (Bosa, Allen, Hock etc).

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Hope so. Donald was completely neutralized in NFC Championship and SuperBowl. I think they called his name once against the Pats

 

Against the Pats their whole game plan was to neutralise him. It allowed countless 1v1 opportunities for the Rams EDGE guys and they couldn't get home. Oliver will make a massive difference to our defense as Donald does to the Rams defense.... but if they want to make it truly dominant they need the edge rushers to then win 1v1. That said Jerry Hughes would instantly be the #1 EDGE guy on the Rams so the Bills are already ahead of the game at this point..... but Jerry is 31 and will need to replacing very soon.

[Mat68]

20 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

I actually didn’t have a specific guy I wanted.  But thanks for reading my mind. And now that it seems you have a personal thing for me, which is absolutely adorable, let me explain. 

 

The Top 10 pick should be an immediate impact player. Someone who should be a consistent starter.  

 

I didn’t think we stood a chance to get Bosa or Josh Allen.  Those, to me, were the biggest impact players.   When Allen fell past 5, I immediately wanted them to trade up.  Anything higher than that wasn’t worth what we’d have to give up. 

 

Once he went, I wanted Hock as that’s a huge need on our offense. 

 

So yes, I’m disappointed in Oliver.  Not because I don’t like the kid. In fact, I loved how he’s reacted and handled himself since being drafted.  My issue is how he will be used.  I don’t want any player at 9 that isn’t a full time starter.  If he’s going to make Harrison take a back seat, okay.  But it not, then I’m not a fan.  I’d have rathered a trade back, OLB, TE, or OT.  

 

I’m happy we got Ford in the 2nd. I’m not sure how I feel about Knox as his production didn’t show up in college.  Foster’s one of the few players I can think of that’s found a way to turn it on in then NFL. 

 

So, please pick your fight elsewhere.  I overall know that the organization knows 1000% more than anyone else on this board and their drafts the past two years have the best I’ve seen.  

 

Also, please utilize grammar.  Reading your horrific syntax makes me go cross-eyed

The fact Buffalo rotates their lineman you dont like it?  I hate to tell you this, but they rotate the ends too.  McDermotts defense thrives with a good 3 technique.  Harrison Phillips plays Star position, the other Phillips is the 3 technique.  In short yardage and goal line he wont be a negative.  Oliver's speed and quickness can stop the play in the backfield.  The position Buffalo drafted Oliver to play is ideal for him.  It should be a homerun.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Excellent post and I agree with every word of it. I make you 100% right on the last sentence. I honestly believe that the top two guys on Buffalo's board were Ed Oliver and Quinnen Williams as 1A and 1B. If either of those guys were there they were taking them regardless of who else was left (Bosa, Allen, Hock etc).

 

Against the Pats their whole game plan was to neutralise him. It allowed countless 1v1 opportunities for the Rams EDGE guys and they couldn't get home. Oliver will make a massive difference to our defense as Donald does to the Rams defense.... but if they want to make it truly dominant they need the edge rushers to then win 1v1. That said Jerry Hughes would instantly be the #1 EDGE guy on the Rams so the Bills are already ahead of the game at this point..... but Jerry is 31 and will need to replacing very soon.

Lawson and Murphy had plenty of one on ones last year and were not good pass rushing.  Lawson is just a good all-aroubd DE. Taken in the third round no one would complain. Taken by Rex in the first and he is looked at in a different light. That does not mean he still can't bring value to the team. I think he can and picking up his option gives the Bills leverage. 

I saw edge as the Bills biggest need, but Oliver and a future starting RT is a good draft. 

Shock the world and get Clowney?? Unlikely but Bills did it with Biscuit to put them over the top.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Lawson and Murphy had plenty of one on ones last year and were not good pass rushing.  Lawson is just a good all-aroubd DE. Taken in the third round no one would complain. Taken by Rex in the first and he is looked at in a different light. That does not mean he still can't bring value to the team. I think he can and picking up his option gives the Bills leverage. 

I saw edge as the Bills biggest need, but Oliver and a future starting RT is a good draft. 

Shock the world and get Clowney?? Unlikely but Bills did it with Biscuit to put them over the top.

 

I know - I wasn't arguing against any of that. Oliver himself doesn't solve the pass rush - edge rusher is still a need. But he massively helps and I think his presence helps Jerry Hughes. I don't expect the Bills to be a championship contender in 2019.... I expect them to be a playoff contender. There will still be pieces missing and edge rusher likely is one. I wouldn't race ahead and trade valuable future picks for Clowney yet. I think we might be a year away from that putting them over the top situation.