So why was Josh Allen a 1st rounder & Tyree Jackson Undrafted?

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, Rampage said:

You’re not a scout. Teams put on the tape and obviously saw Josh Allen had the arm strength, footwork and throwing motion to put it together at the next level. He also obviously nailed his interviews, board work and background checks.

 

If you draft based on the stat sheet you’re gonna end up like the Raiders. Or us before Beane.

Yeah that 7-9 record before Beane was so much worse than our 6-10 record last year.  

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Tony Romo did too.

And Favre, Aikman, Elway, Eli, and Otto Graham. If I didn't let the kids have their fun, they'd have no fun at all.

1 minute ago, Mark92 said:

OP is directly comparing the two players as are you  Yes is it's not the purpose of the thread but it is a comparison thread.  

He's looking for information on a detailed level what separates them as prospects because they're very similar on paper. A lot of people with '17' avatars can't seem to grasp that.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Mark92 said:

OP is directly comparing the two players as are you  Yes is it's not the purpose of the thread but it is a comparison thread.  

No, it was a question stating why 2 guys with very similar measurables and college careers in lower D1 conferences were drafted so far apart.  Some posters are so sensitive of anything that might be perceived as a slight against Allen.  Allen is the starter and Jackson is trying to make the roster.  

[Mark92]

5 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Was it Drew Brees or Russel Wilson, I don't remember.

God, no one is saying that. Read slower, it'll do wonders.

 

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

No, it was a question stating why 2 guys with very similar measurables and college careers in lower D1 conferences were drafted so far apart.  Some posters are so sensitive of anything that might be perceived as a slight against Allen.  Allen is the starter and Jackson is trying to make the roster.  

It's directly comparing the two to try and figure out why they had such different draft grades.   It's not just combine and pro day numbers that make draft grades.  It's seeing the actual games.   Once you do that you get your answer

   

   

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, Mark92 said:

 

It's directly comparing the two to try and figure out why they had such different draft grades.   It's not just combine and pro day numbers that make draft grades.  It's seeing the actual games.   Once you do that you get your answer

   

   

What's in the games that provides the answer? That's what he wants to know. Just drop the attitude and provide the information if you have it.

Edited April 28, 2019 by BullBuchanan

[MakeBuffaloGreatAgain]

11 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yea, numbers are for nerds. Facts just get in the way of the tried and true ol' eyeball test.

Yeah, because Tebow is working on his 5th Super Bowl because his stats say so! Those perennial pro-bowler QBs from Hawaii, Oklahoma St., and Washington State are killing right now in the NFL with all their stats they accumulated in college. Stats stats stats! 

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

 

It's directly comparing the two to try and figure out why they had such different draft grades.   It's not just combine and pro day numbers that make draft grades.  It's seeing the actual games.   Once you do that you get your answer

   

   

But there were people who watched Allen and didn’t see a 1st round qb.  He had some dreadful games in college.  I think it’s an interesting question.  I think the height thing was a major reason why. Also, and we don’t have the information, but the interview part would be super interesting.  I think a nerd like Daniel Jones probably is awesome at interviews (or the Northwestern qb who I think is garbage).

[Mark92]

6 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

What's in the games that provides the answer? That's what he wants to know. Just drop the attitude and provide the information if you have it.

Attitude?  I'm giving my opionion towards the OP question.  It's ok for others to disagree and or have have other opinions.  I don't see anyone else giving their opinions or answers 

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

No, it was a question stating why 2 guys with very similar measurables and college careers

 

Yes and it's a bad question. Scouts don't care about the career they had in college. Most Heisman trophy winners go on to do nothing. This whole thread is a really poor use of statistics.

[quincy]

My partial answer is the market and the marketplace.

 

Last years draft had a quantity of quarterbacks and teams wanting them - 5 picks in round 1. Browns, Jets, Bills, Cardinals as known suitors.  

 

This year quarterback needs were somewhat solved before the draft, e.g. Foles to Jaguars, Flacco to Denver.

 

This years crop was much weaker and with limited demand. Imagine Murray did not declare, only 2 quarterbacks would have been taken in round 1.

With Jones arguably not having a round one grade but on the plus side he did have the Cunliffe (Manning) connection.

 

Tyree did work out with Jordan Palmer but it didn't boost him enough to be drafted.

 

Let us hope that him not being drafted can benefit him and the Bills. Maybe some gimmick plays with Tyree and Josh on the field together.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

I'm the furthest thing from a Josh Allen fanboy, but one distinct difference is release. If you watch TJ, he takes forever to get rid of the ball because he's got a windup like Tim Lincecum.

 

There's just no way a QB can hack it in the NFL if he takes that long to get rid of the football.

[BullBuchanan]

Here's Nate Geary's write-up on him: Mechanics and decision making are the two big points he makes: https://www.cover1.net/nate-geary-top-five-qbs-5-tyree-jackson-2019-nfl-draft/

I think it would be reasonable to guess that Jackson hasn't had a lot of quality coaching in his life. His physical abilities probably allowed him to play so far above everyone else at his level, that it wasn't required in HS, and given he played in the MAC, it may not have been available to him in college. The decision making part increases the possibility that he struggled on the whiteboard. If he did get the quality coaching, that means he wasn't able to incorporate it, which is another red flag.

[NewEra]

12 hours ago, GreggTX said:

All I can say is that the 2 best QB's in the 2018 draft were already gone when we selected Allen. It remains to be seen if he's the real deal or just another running QB that can't hit the side of a barn. Many Bills fans simply will not allow themselves to see him as he really is -- Tyrod Taylor v2.0. At least TT made it to the probowl once. I'm getting tired of these QB's we bring in with the same MO (Allen, Taylor, EJ Manuel). I want a QB that throws the ball accurately with good placement on a consistent basis and one that makes quick, correct decisions. If he's a good scrambler, OK, but I really don't much care about that. How many rushing yards does Brady get in a season? 50 maybe? And he's got 6 SB rings.

You’re basically saying that because Josh Allen can run and wasn’t very accurate, that he’s TT.  TT doesn’t throw the ball unless players are wide open.  It’s why he isn’t a good QB imo.  No trust.  Can’t pull the trigger.  

[Stanley Lombardi]

Like most of us on this board, I watched every game that Josh Allen played last year.  I also watched every game that Tyree played last year.  To compare them is to, de facto, elevate Tyree to a place he does not belong.  I hope he finds "it" and becomes Allen's Frank Reich or a starter somewhere else, but thus far I don't see "it" in his repertoire.

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

This is a really good question and an excellent post.  IMO, no one has given a very convincing answer.  I have not seen Jackson play, so I can’t offer an opinion, but you’ve made a strong case that the two are pretty similar, at least on paper. Certainly nothing jumps out that should make one a potential first overall pick and another an UDFA.

 

Unfortunately, your legitimate question brought out some of the worst aspects of TSW:  over half the responses are either smart-ass non-answers or completely non-responsive.  And some of the responses, while honest, are unconvincing.  Josh’s “fighting spirit”?  Really?   The difference between the MAC and the WAC?  Please...  I’m sure there is a good answer to this question, but we haven’t seen it in this thread.

 

Go back up and read Buffalo 716

 

 

[prissythecat]

52 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Was it Drew Brees or Russel Wilson, I don't remember.

God, no one is saying that. Read slower, it'll do wonders.

 

 

No . try again.  There is only one QB in NFL who has a 10% interception rate and a 1:4 TD to Int ratio.

[kirkwoodus13]

This is easy... Josh is white.. before everyone gets all upset and refuse to acknowledge that race still plays into perceptions of black QB’s and their intelligence and ability to lead just ask yourself this question. When is the last time someone throws for 50 TD’s and under 10 interceptions in a major conference and wasn’t even considered for the first pick or not chosen in the top ten. If a white QB had Dwayne Haskens numbers the number one pick would not be a question. I hope Josh Allen succeeds, but his performance against top level competition in college was terrible. But I guess he had no one to throw too. The bottom line is the NFL expects Jackson and other minority’s QB’s to be athletic and uses that against them and focus on their intellectual capacity. So when you have athletic, white QB like Allen they just assume he has that intelligence to be an NFL quarterback. The fact that this KId went unstaffed when even Peterman was drafted and still in the league says it all. So please continue to talk bout the tape, and who look in control and ignore the obvious 

[K-9]

Two major areas of difference: mechanics and intangibles. 

 

Mechanically speaking, Allen's release is far superior to Jackson's. Fast, compact, and generates a ton of velocity. Jackson's long wind up delivery and release is just so much slower and those nanoseconds are that much more critical at the NFL level. 

 

In terms of intangibles, Allen's leadership jumps off the charts, both on and off the field. And he's worked his ass off to give himself the shot that he did. I'm not knocking Jackson's effort in that regard, but Allen overcame a lot more to get there, imo. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by K-9

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

This is a really good question and an excellent post.  IMO, no one has given a very convincing answer.  I have not seen Jackson play, so I can’t offer an opinion, but you’ve made a strong case that the two are pretty similar, at least on paper. Certainly nothing jumps out that should make one a potential first overall pick and another an UDFA.

 

Unfortunately, your legitimate question brought out some of the worst aspects of TSW:  over half the responses are either smart-ass non-answers or completely non-responsive.  And some of the responses, while honest, are unconvincing.  Josh’s “fighting spirit”?  Really?   The difference between the MAC and the WAC?  Please...  I’m sure there is a good answer to this question, but we haven’t seen it in this thread.

Read my answer above  

 

I’ve had seasons at UB since their coneback to D1 and have seen every snap of TJ3 career 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I have watched every snap of Jacksons career...

 

he may be physically similar to Allen but their actual quarterbacking skills are not on par...

 

for starters... Allen has a super crisp and quick release..,

 

Jackson has a very noticeable elongation in his windup...

 

in the NFL that is the difference betweeen a TD and a pick 6...

 

Josh Allen also had experience in a very pro style offense... routinely played in a system that asked him to read the whole field from 3-5-7 step drops 

 

TJ played in a gimmicky spread offense... he did read the whole field... but NEVER worked under center... maybe 1%...

 

Jackson also was on a loaded UB offense and he struggled at times.. 

 

Josh may have struggled at times but he was on a dog**** Wyoming offense... he CARRIED THE TEAM

 

Jackson didn’t carry UB

 

 

 

 

Agree entirely. Had I read this first, I wouldn't have posted my own response. 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

Josh Allen has elite release time, I believe Sport science said it was right up there with Rodgers...

Tyree not so much...

[JoPar_v2]

1 hour ago, Mark92 said:

 

I SAID I cherry Picked his best game to prove a point.  I knowingly did that because I do not believe Jackson can be that good in the NFL.  Pure talent is why Allen was a top 10 pick and Jackson ended up undrafted.  On paper many things look similar but watch them both play and you will see the difference.   OP started this thread posing a question as to WHY they were so far apart when it came to draft grades.  I am giving my opinion.  It was great work on the part of the OP though.  Just because things look close on paper doesn't mean they are on the field.  Sorry that you don't find my posts relevant.  I'll make sure to run my opinions by you first from now on.  ?

 

 

 

That’s some excellent backpedaling. 

[Big Gun]

15 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Josh Allen was always said to be a "project" QB, with a raw skillset but the physical attributes and athleticism that made him worth drafting on potential alone. Great size & arm strength were constantly noted, as were accuracy issues.

 

On the other hand, Tyree Jackson is said to be the liked for the same reasons. Great size and athleticism, fantastic arm strength, but also inaccurate. They both also faced similar criticisms for facing inferior competition throughout their collegiate careers.

Josh Allen is 6'5 and 240 lbs.

Tyree Jackson is 6'7 and 249 lbs.

 

Josh Allen's hand size is 10 & 1/8 inches.

Tyree Jackson's hand size is 10 & 1/4 inches.

Josh Allen's arms measured at 33 & 1/4 inches.

Tyree Jackson's arms measured at 34 & 1/4 inches.

 

Josh Allen ran a 4.75 second 40 yard dash.

Tyree Jackson ran a 4.59 second 40 yard dash.

 

Josh Allen had a 33.5 inch vertical jump.

Tyree Jackson had a 34.5 inch vertical jump.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

So in terms of physical attributes, size & athleticism, they both are extremely similar in every way. Now to break down stats a bit:

Josh Allen's Completion Percentage his final season - 56.3%

Tyree Jackson's Completion Percentage his final season - 55.3%

 

Josh Allen's YPG his final season - 164.7 yards

Tyree Jackson's YPG his final season - 223.6 yards

 

Josh Allen had 16 TD's, averaging 1.45 TD's per game his final season. (28 TD's in 14 games the the prior season)

Tyree Jackson had 28 TD's, averaging 2.0 TD's per game his final season. (12 TD's in 8 games the prior season)

 

Josh Allen threw 6 INT's, averaging 0.54 INT's per game his final season (15 INT's, averaging 1.07 per game the prior season)

Tyree Jackson threw 12 INT's, averaging 0.85 INT's per game his final season (3 INT's, averaging 0.38 per game the prior season)

 

Josh Allen rushed for 204 yards on 92 carries, averaging 2.2 YPA his final season.

Tyree Jackson rushed for 161 yards on 55 carries, averaging 2.9 YPA his final season.

 

Josh Allen rushed for 5 TDs his final season (12 TD's in 2 seasons).

Tyree Jackson rushed for 7 TD's his final season (16 TD's in 3 seasons).

 

Josh Allen was 8-3 as a starter his final season, 8-6 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson was 10-4 as a starter his final season, 5-3 the prior year.

 

Josh Allen's Passer Rating his final season was 127.8, and 144.9 the prior year.

Tyree Jackson's Passer Rating his final season was 136.7, and 148.8 the prior year.

 

***************************************************************************************************

 

Again, awfully similar in most every category. One of the only other factors to consider is whether you value playing in the MW Conference or the MAC more. Wyoming finished with a 4th overall W/L record at 8-5 in the MWC in 2017, with Allen not leading in a single statistical category in the conference.

 

Buffalo finished with a 1st overall W/L record at 10-4 in the MAC in 2018, with Jackson leading in several major statistical categories in the conference (Ex: Most Passing TD's and Most Passing Yards). He also finished the season as the MAC's Offensive Player of the Year.

 

Anyway... TL;DR - What differences between them were so huge that it lead to a gap in draft position as massive as A) being a top 10 pick in the 1st round and B) being passed over by everyone & signing as an Undrafted Rookie FA? I'm not saying Tyree is as good as Allen, and I'm not saying he's even worthy of being an NFL starter. I just can't see how one is worth the risk based on physical attributes & flashes of great talent, while the other has equally impressive physical attributes and also shows flashes of great talent.

I mean, at least he should be worth a pick in the 4th round based on where Allen was drafted right? At worst, a 5th or 6th rounder... Can you imagine if Josh Allen fell to the 5th or 6th, or simply went undrafted? "Intangibles" can be thrown around to fill in for whatever explanation that doesn't exist for such a weird difference in draft stock, but that should only cover so much. 

On the other hand, I don't know if Jackson had any legal troubles or character doubts that I haven't heard about, but from what I know there wasn't anything noteworthy. So how did one guy profit so much his physical skillset while the other was written off for a very similar one?

How about wonderlic scores. Maybe the difference is mental.

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, pop gun said:

How about wonderlic scores. Maybe the difference is mental.

Jackson scored a 25. It's not great, but it's far from disqualifying. Had to be much more to it than that.

[Chandler#81]

Jackson flat out quit on his team in their biggest game in years, on national television. When/if Josh ever does that, he’ll go immediately on my shartlist as well.

[Just Joshin']

If you have to ask why one is a first round and one  UDFA, then no explanation will help.

[Mark92]

37 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

That’s some excellent backpedaling. 

?

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Intangibles and film, as noted, ace this discussion.  They speak much more than paper does.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, kirkwoodus13 said:

If a white QB had Dwayne Haskens numbers the number one pick would not be a question.

 

This is an especially weird year to make this point. You did watch the beginning of the draft, yes?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I have watched every snap of Jacksons career...

he may be physically similar to Allen but their actual quarterbacking skills are not on par...

for starters... Allen has a super crisp and quick release..,

Jackson has a very noticeable elongation in his windup...

in the NFL that is the difference betweeen a TD and a pick 6...

Josh Allen also had experience in a very pro style offense... routinely played in a system that asked him to read the whole field from 3-5-7 step drops 

TJ played in a gimmicky spread offense... he did read the whole field... but NEVER worked under center... maybe 1%...

Jackson also was on a loaded UB offense and he struggled at times.. 

Josh may have struggled at times but he was on a dog**** Wyoming offense... he CARRIED THE TEAM

Jackson didn’t carry UB

 

And this, my friends, from a guy who has actually been paid to scout for the league, is your answer.

 

1. release - crisp, quick vs elongated

2. offense - pro style vs gimmick, under center vs spread

3. supporting cast - strong but still struggled vs. weak and carried the team

 

Another factor alluded to may be football smarts, how does he show at the whiteboard or in interviews?  Allen is a football smart guy, the general public could see it during "The Wakeup Call" features with Kurt Cousins.  I don't know what that was like for Jackson, but it could be a factor.

 

2 hours ago, pop gun said:

How about wonderlic scores. Maybe the difference is mental.

 

Jackson had a decent Wonderlic, not as high as Allen but it's high enough that it isn't a flag.

[Rob's House]

Why is Aaron Rogers starting for the Packers and I'm sitting on the couch? This is bull *****.

[JoPar_v2]

1 hour ago, Mark92 said:

?

 

Lol the emoji response. Single smartest thing you’ve said in this thread. I wouldn’t want to show my a** anymore than you already have today either.

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And this, my friends, from a guy who has actually been paid to scout for the league, is your answer.

 

1. release - crisp, quick vs elongated

2. offense - pro style vs gimmick, under center vs spread

3. supporting cast - strong but still struggled vs. weak and carried the team

 

Another factor alluded to may be football smarts, how does he show at the whiteboard or in interviews?  Allen is a football smart guy, the general public could see it during "The Wakeup Call" features with Kurt Cousins.  I don't know what that was like for Jackson, but it could be a factor.

 

 

Jackson had a decent Wonderlic, not as high as Allen but it's high enough that it isn't a flag.

Those are the big ones but there is a good amount that he needs to clean up 

 

he dips the ball VERY low in the pocket... especially when he takes off... that is a huge concern and it’s muscle memory 

 

he also doesn’t excel in the short game... a slant is like poison ivy to him... 

 

if people think Allen has scattershot accuracy... Jackson is a like a shotgun without rifling

[JESSEFEFFER]

Tyree is talented enough to run for 45 yards with his team trailing and needing a score but then lack enough awareness and fumble at the 3.  There were some tough losses that UB took where he was capable of doing more to help but he seemed to wilt under the pressure.  Some athletes come alive when challenged.   His tools are rare enough that he still should have been taken in the draft, imo.  Teams took lesser QBs in this draft.  Tyree had a good Senior Bowl, Combine and Pro Day.  Maybe Jordan Palmer helped him some.  Buffalo716 nailed some of his flaws but it's not like all the QBs taken don't have them too.

[TigerJ]

I think Tyree has upside, but there are clearly things he needs to fix, like his delivery.  Josh Allen might have benefited from a year on the bench.  Tyree Jackson surely will.  Two years might even be better.

[dakrider]

I'm very surprised that no other team took Jackson in at least the 6th or 7th round.  

[longtimebillsfan]

17 hours ago, GreggTX said:

All I can say is that the 2 best QB's in the 2018 draft were already gone when we selected Allen. It remains to be seen if he's the real deal or just another running QB that can't hit the side of a barn. Many Bills fans simply will not allow themselves to see him as he really is -- Tyrod Taylor v2.0. At least TT made it to the probowl once. I'm getting tired of these QB's we bring in with the same MO (Allen, Taylor, EJ Manuel). I want a QB that throws the ball accurately with good placement on a consistent basis and one that makes quick, correct decisions. If he's a good scrambler, OK, but I really don't much care about that. How many rushing yards does Brady get in a season? 50 maybe? And he's got 6 SB rings.

Are you that" get off my lawn" guy?  Wow.

[formerlyofCtown]

25 minutes ago, dakrider said:

I'm very surprised that no other team took Jackson in at least the 6th or 7th round.  

The truth is less teams need a QB than I can ever remember.

[Peace Frog]

8 hours ago, mannc said:

Another non-answer...

That’s pretty much what the OP is asking.

The way that his question is phrased, with the comparisons between Tyree and only Josh Allen, leaves me feeling like "Why didn't the Bills draft Tyree?" and not like "Why did every team pass on him?"

[Richard Crickets]

Who is the greatest undrafted qb of all time?